The anti-crypto thread

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beginner99

Diamond Member
Jun 2, 2009
5,216
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136
This is all beside the point I was making, though. Beginner99's focus on 'I can keep my crypto when I run afoul of the brownshirts!' is ignoring that the brownshirts can and will do far worse things than take your money (and still get your crypto anyway). It's a really, really weird sales pitch, you have to admit.

I mean it works the same with fiat and you can avert it in the same way. Fake wallet. You just need to give them something but not your main stuff of course. The difference to fiat being that the crypto won't be worthless withing weeks given the probably inflation in this scenario.

EDIT:

also the process is subtle. Just look at more and more big banks outright blocking customers from transfering money to crypto exchanges. That is exactly it. It's my money. They should have no right to block what I want to do with it. At some point you can't buy say porn with your visa because its bad and so forth.
 

Mopetar

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2011
7,961
6,312
136
Miner's should just open a side business as a sauna.

I also don't see why people think Bitcoin dropping to $40,000 is some kind of collapse. It dropped below $30,000 half a year ago. A few months later it was at an all-time high.
 
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DisarmedDespot

Senior member
Jun 2, 2016
587
588
136
I mean it works the same with fiat and you can avert it in the same way. Fake wallet. You just need to give them something but not your main stuff of course. The difference to fiat being that the crypto won't be worthless withing weeks given the probably inflation in this scenario.

Yes, because the brownshirts are gonna just take the first wallet you hand them and then leave you alone. Totally.

You're still laser-focused on an oppressive government taking your money while completely ignoring all the other and far worse things an oppressive government can do.

also the process is subtle. Just look at more and more big banks outright blocking customers from transferring money to crypto exchanges. That is exactly it. It's my money. They should have no right to block what I want to do with it. At some point you can't buy say porn with your visa because its bad and so forth.
So your example of government censorship are banks (private entities) blocking transfers to exchanges? And ones (you didn't say which banks or which exchanges, but I can guess) that are probably doing that because of fraud or risk in a near wholly unregulated market?

You should be far more worried about politicians who trample over democratic norms.
 
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BFG10K

Lifer
Aug 14, 2000
22,709
2,979
126
There's a difference between accessing a wallet and mining.
Is there? Show us how to access a Crypto wallet without electricity or internet. Specifically, show us how to make a payment or otherwise extract value from it.

The blockchain's still working, to the extent that it works at all.
22% drop in value overnight. If that's "working" then so is the Zimbabwean dollar.

"Crypto is the solution to fiat's inflation!". LMAO.

Fortunately I do not think that people in the West will ever experience that problem. It's more of a someone-else's-problem kind of thing.
Yep, that's why the Cryptobros don't care if the likes of Kosovo experience power cuts because of their parasitic behavior.
 
Last edited:

ultimatebob

Lifer
Jul 1, 2001
25,135
2,445
126
Miner's should just open a side business as a sauna.

I also don't see why people think Bitcoin dropping to $40,000 is some kind of collapse. It dropped below $30,000 half a year ago. A few months later it was at an all-time high.

This kind of volatility in crypto isn't abnormal at all. That said, it shows why it doesn't really work as a currency. No sane person would buy a big ticket item like a house with Bitcoin, for example, because by the time the title transfer process was complete the price of Bitcoin could be up or down by 40%.

If the world ever switches over to regularly paying for goods and services with crypto, it would have to work more like a stablecoin where the value is relatively stable from week to week.
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
21,737
11,053
136
Is there? Show us how to access a Crypto wallet without electricity or internet.

Okay.

1). Leave country
2). Get Internet access, preferably with a VPN
3). ???
4). Profit!

Bonus points for you if you memorized your 40-word keyphrase or if you have a keyfile in dropbox or similar. Nothing to confiscate at the border.

Or you can, you know, just wait for them to turn the power back on. Your tokens will be there waiting for you.

22% drop in value overnight. If that's "working" then so is the Zimbabwean dollar.

So what? Why does Bitcoin (or anything else) have to be worth $60k or $40k to "work"? You're out of your mind.

I would argue that Ethereum in particular would "work" better as a blockchain if it were worth less money per ETH. Bitcoin has its own stupid little problems, but it certainly doesn't need to be worth $40k . You can go argue with some BTC promoter and their moronic "store of value" arguments. But the underlying chain and its awesome 7 tx/s are not much affected by price. (that was sarcasm, by the way: Bitcoin's blockchain is so slow as to be glacial)

"Crypto is the solution to fiat's inflation!". LMAO.

Crypto is dependent on fiat's inflation. Most crypto prices are bloated by Fed easy money policy. Among other things. Less fiat in circulation will probably lead to some prices coming down, at least temporarily. As other investments start to collapse for similar reasons, money might pour back into crypto as a safehaven though.

Yep, that's why the Cryptobros don't care if the likes of Kosovo experience power cuts because of their parasitic behavior.

Long term, they don't. Especially anyone who is not invested in Bitcoin specifically. Solana or Algorand are not at all affected by upheaval in Kazakhstan or anti-mining laws in Kosovo. Time to stop living in 2013 mang.
 
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Insert_Nickname

Diamond Member
May 6, 2012
4,971
1,692
136
"Crypto is the solution to fiat's inflation!". LMAO.

I don't get where people get these ideas. You really want some level of inflation in an economy. Just not at Zimbabwean Dollar level. It's actually a healthy sign.

That's right people. Inflation can be a very good sign, especially if you have debts.
 

Mopetar

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2011
7,961
6,312
136
I don't get where people get these ideas. You really want some level of inflation in an economy. Just not at Zimbabwean Dollar level. It's actually a healthy sign.

That's right people. Inflation can be a very good sign, especially if you have debts.

Inflation isn't inherently health or unhealthy. You can make similar arguments about how deflation is good because it means money that you save now will be worth more in the future so you don't have to worry about retirement. Inflation does the opposite and makes your present earnings devalue over time. There are numerous other tradeoffs that have both a positive and negative effect.

Debts don't really matter because the lender is just going to adjust the interest amount based on inflation. If inflation were 10% the interest rate would go up to account for that. If you look at a graph showing both inflation and interest rate, you'll see that there's a strong degree of correlation between them. The federal reserve even attempts to adjust the interest rate to control inflation.

However, there's a bigger issue. If inflation were desirable at some level, shouldn't we have figured out what the ideal amount of inflation is? We know that too much is bad, but do we know if we have enough? What is the ideal inflation rate? The question has no answer but is makes the assumption that some amount of inflation is desirable. It begs the question as it were.

Crytopcurrency doesn't even guarantee that it won't be inflationary by itself. Some like Bitcoin which have a natural cap on the total amount that can ever exist will be naturally deflationary because the supply is limited compared to other currencies which don't have such limits. It isn't so much that Bitcoin will increase in value for any reason as much as everything else decreases in value relative to it.
 

Insert_Nickname

Diamond Member
May 6, 2012
4,971
1,692
136
Inflation isn't inherently health or unhealthy. You can make similar arguments about how deflation is good because it means money that you save now will be worth more in the future so you don't have to worry about retirement. Inflation does the opposite and makes your present earnings devalue over time. There are numerous other tradeoffs that have both a positive and negative effect.

Wait, what? You're seriously arguing deflation is a good idea? Are you German by any chance? No negative connotations intended. It's just something I'd expect to hear south of the border (with Germany). They have a somewhat unique view of economics down there. Which admittedly works mostly* well. For them. Not really the rest of Europe.

*There are some severe drawbacks from where I'm sitting. But that's just my personal opinion.

If inflation were desirable at some level, shouldn't we have figured out what the ideal amount of inflation is?

Between 1-2% is commonly accepted. It's reasonable, without being too much. Has worked very well here since the 80's.

Denmark also has some unique circumstances, but those would take a few pages to sum up. It has to do with how our housing market works. Which is quite different from English speaking countries.
 

Mopetar

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2011
7,961
6,312
136
Deflation is no better or worse than inflation. I think you've misread what I wrote the impression you've come away with is that definition is somehow superior. It isn't and I don't believe that it's preferable.

Why is 1-2% inflation better than 0% inflation? For that matter why is it better than 3% inflation?

I
 
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Insert_Nickname

Diamond Member
May 6, 2012
4,971
1,692
136
It isn't and I don't believe that it's preferable.

It's been a while since Economics 101.

The reason you should never wish for deflation in any economy can be expressed really simple: Why spend today, when your money is worth more tomorrow? The entire economy will not only come to a screeching halt, but a dead stop once it hits that barrier.

The reason I mention Germans is because Germans are allergic to inflation. They're a nation of savers, so any inflation hollows out their savings. That, combined with the national trauma of the hyper inflation of 1922-23, you get a somewhat alternative viewpoint down there. Unfortunately, their attitude has consequences elsewhere in Europe. Apologies to any Germans out there. I actually like Germany quite a bit. Just not their economic ideas.

Why is 1-2% inflation better than 0% inflation? For that matter why is it better than 3% inflation?

Imagine you owe $100.000. With an inflation rate of 2% yearly, next year you'll "magically" only owe $98.000. It'll still say $100.000 on the IOU, but inflation has hollowed out the value of those $ you spent last year. Times 30 years, and it really helps out a mortgage.
 

Mopetar

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2011
7,961
6,312
136
It's been a while since Economics 101.

The reason you should never wish for deflation in any economy can be expressed really simple: Why spend today, when your money is worth more tomorrow? The entire economy will not only come to a screeching halt, but a dead stop once it hits that barrier.

Because I need to eat today. I need a place to live today. I need to be able to drive to work today. Is my money going to be twice as valuable tomorrow? No, it would be twice as valuable in 100 years you say. I don't have time to wait, I'll be dead by then.

Money is not inherently valuable. If the economy produces less or even shrinks, you cannot deflate the value of money without destroying some of its supply. You can still print more money while having its value deflate if the economy is growing fast enough.

The reason I mention Germans is because Germans are allergic to inflation. They're a nation of savers, so any inflation hollows out their savings. That, combined with the national trauma of the hyper inflation of 1922-23, you get a somewhat alternative viewpoint down there. Unfortunately, their attitude has consequences elsewhere in Europe. Apologies to any Germans out there. I actually like Germany quite a bit. Just not their economic ideas.

Germany is one of the most successful economies in both Europe and the world. It seems strange to suggest their economic ideas are foolish when they're as successful as they are.

Imagine you owe $100.000. With an inflation rate of 2% yearly, next year you'll "magically" only owe $98.000. It'll still say $100.000 on the IOU, but inflation has hollowed out the value of those $ you spent last year. Times 30 years, and it really helps out a mortgage.

I don't just owe $100 next year though or magically owe only $98. I owe $100 (the principal) + whatever interest has accrued on that loan. The interest rate that I can borrow at for anything is higher than the rate of inflation. Suppose it's 5%. Now I owe $105 and although inflation means that's less than $105 used to be worth (a little less than $103 using the same 2% inflation), it's still not less than I previously owed. If there were no inflation, the interest rate would be lower, maybe only 3%. If inflation were higher, so would the interest rate. The bank still needs to make a profit to stay in business.

It's funny that you bring up mortgages as an example as well. Houses are deflationary relative to the U.S. dollar. It's obvious that this is far more complicated in reality and that it isn't houses themselves being inherently more valuable than anything else and for no other reason, but other factors such as location and difficulty of building additional supply where there is the most demand. We even talk about it being such a good longterm investment since the value goes up and you can sell it later because it's worth much more than you paid for it initially even when accounting for inflation.

Sounds like people who want to invest in and hold on to cryptocurrency are treating it a lot like houses for much the same reason. Those cheaters don't even have to pay property taxes on their crypto or deal with maintenance and upkeep.[/quote][/QUOTE]
 
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Insert_Nickname

Diamond Member
May 6, 2012
4,971
1,692
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Because I need to eat today. I need a place to live today. I need to be able to drive to work today. Is my money going to be twice as valuable tomorrow? No, it would be twice as valuable in 100 years you say. I don't have time to wait, I'll be dead by then.

You can't grow your economy if everyone is only spending on just the basics. Just ask the Japanese who have been struggling with that for the last 30 years. You can view inflation as an incentive to spend money now, because they're less valuable tomorrow. Economic activity requires spending, whether that is though consumption or investments. Something has to turn the wheels around.

Money is not inherently valuable. If the economy produces less or even shrinks, you cannot deflate the value of money without destroying some of its supply. You can still print more money while having its value deflate if the economy is growing fast enough.

Agreed. Currencies is only valuable as a means of exchange. They're a poor way to store wealth. Has been since everybody left the gold/silver standard.

Germany is one of the most successful economies in both Europe and the world. It seems strange to suggest their economic ideas are foolish when they're as successful as they are.

Ever wonder why? Because the rest of Europe is paying them, and they're keeping southern Europe in effective debt bondage. That's why Germany is successful, because they have the capital everybody wants, due to being a nation of savers. I'll have to add my own country is no better in that regard. We're paying -0.7% interest on cash in the bank, and there has been talk of lowering that further to -0.8% because the Krone is way too strong against the Euro.

I also happen to know an even more successful country. My own. Where people don't have to work two or three jobs to make ends meet. That's the unfortunate reality, especially in the old East Germany.

I don't just owe $100 next year though or magically owe only $98. I owe $100 (the principal) + whatever interest has accrued on that loan. The interest rate that I can borrow at for anything is higher than the rate of inflation. Suppose it's 5%. Now I owe $105 and although inflation means that's less than $105 used to be worth (a little less than $103 using the same 2% inflation), it's still not less than I previously owed. If there were no inflation, the interest rate would be lower, maybe only 3%. If inflation were higher, so would the interest rate. The bank still needs to make a profit to stay in business.

Okay, maybe I oversimplified a bit. Guilty as charged.

You know what the interest rate was here in the early 80's? 18%. The effective rate however was close to 0, due to inflation. Banks will always find a way to make money. Here the interest rate is currently negative on Realkredit, so now they just make money on obligatory "contributions" to the Kreditselskab...

It's funny that you bring up mortgages as an example as well. Houses are deflationary relative to the U.S. dollar. It's obvious that this is far more complicated in reality and that it isn't houses themselves being inherently more valuable than anything else and for no other reason, but other factors such as location and difficulty of building additional supply where there is the most demand. We even talk about it being such a good longterm investment since the value goes up and you can sell it later because it's worth much more than you paid for it initially even when accounting for inflation.

As I said, Danish Realkredit and general housing market works a bit differently. I'm really not that familiar with how things work in the US.

Here you shouldn't view housing as an investment as such, but as a store of wealth. You may get lucky it's worth more then you paid for it when you sell it. Especially in the larger cities (Copenhagen in particular has had a real boom). But again, you may get unlucky and end up with a huge debt. Of course longer term mean trending towards the former, but there are a lot of places where prices haven't even recovered to 2007-levels yet.
 

Mopetar

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2011
7,961
6,312
136
You can't grow your economy if everyone is only spending on just the basics. Just ask the Japanese who have been struggling with that for the last 30 years. You can view inflation as an incentive to spend money now, because they're less valuable tomorrow. Economic activity requires spending, whether that is though consumption or investments. Something has to turn the wheels around.

You act as though a deflationary currency would stop everyone from spending money, but people don't act like that. Here's a very interesting thought experiment. Suppose someone offered you $50 now or $100 half a year from now. Which would you choose? Suppose we changed this slightly and I offered you $50 in three months or $100 in nine months. Would your choice change?

When this is done, most people take $50 immediately, even though $100 represents a better ROI than you can get practically anywhere. Yet the same people will largely choose the opposite when the dates are shifted by 3 months. Researchers and behavior economists who've studied this have said that people utilize what's called hyperbolic discounting which is a fancy way of saying that humans (and other animals) have a problem with delayed gratification.

Suppose a very mild deflation of 1%. In other words, your $100 today would be worth $101 in today's money if you wait a year. Would you sit on that money if someone else proposed an investment opportunity where you could expect a 7% return on your investment? Economic investment that yields desirable outcomes has a better return regardless of whether a currency is inflating or deflating. Having wild fluctuations just makes people more hesitant regardless of what direction those swings are in because there's a lot of uncertainty and that makes people hesitant.

Again, neither inflation or deflation are inherently good or bad. They only offer different kinds of trade offs. Anyone will account for those effects when offering loans or planning an investment of some kind. When the effect becomes large in either direction it creates a larger degree of uncertainty of how people should act. Neither mild inflation or deflation would hurt an economy.

An inflation rate of two percent annually means that that in 35 years the money supply will have doubled relative to the economy. A deflation rate of two percent annually means that in 35 years the economy will have doubled relative to the money supply. It's entirely possible to have inflation even when shrinking the money supply as well as to have deflation even while growing the money supply. It wouldn't matter either way as long as there aren't any sudden fluctuations.

Japan made some bad decisions that created a massive bubble that couldn't be sustained because the underlying reality didn't reflect the valuation it had been given. In some ways it was very similar to the issues surrounding the U.S. housing market crisis. Japan is still one of the world's top economy. They probably would have recovered much faster if they didn't insist on trying to prop up that bubble and just accepted that some banks and businesses had to go under. Of course no one likes facing the music as it were, but no one is starving in the streets and even despite all of the supposed troubles Japan still has a healthy economy and a low rate of unemployment.

Japan only looks bad when viewed against a bubble that only existed as a fiction on paper. If that bubble had never occurred and they had the same real GDP as they do now, no one would be saying that their economy was bad. It just become massively overvalued and unfortunately that overvaluation became so large that there was no easy way for it to work itself out.
 
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Insert_Nickname

Diamond Member
May 6, 2012
4,971
1,692
136
You act as though a deflationary currency would stop everyone from spending money, but people don't act like that. Here's a very interesting thought experiment. Suppose someone offered you $50 now or $100 half a year from now. Which would you choose? Suppose we changed this slightly and I offered you $50 in three months or $100 in nine months. Would your choice change?

When this is done, most people take $50 immediately, even though $100 represents a better ROI than you can get practically anywhere. Yet the same people will largely choose the opposite when the dates are shifted by 3 months. Researchers and behavior economists who've studied this have said that people utilize what's called hyperbolic discounting which is a fancy way of saying that humans (and other animals) have a problem with delayed gratification.

It isn't obvious? I'll take the $100 in nine months, thank you. I'm used to investing, so I have plenty of patience. I really don't care what "other people" do. My emotions stop dead at my financials. You may think me odd. I don't mind, since I make a pretty good living from my "odd" ideas.

People should feel free to invest in Crypto, Legos*, Shares, Obligations or whichever else they fancy. I don't mind. There is even an English saying which covers it; Money, like manure, does no good until it is spread.

*Which actually have a pretty decent ROI, and they're Danish, so eventually you're supporting us. Thank you.

An inflation rate of two percent annually means that that in 35 years the money supply will have doubled relative to the economy. A deflation rate of two percent annually means that in 35 years the economy will have doubled relative to the money supply. It's entirely possible to have inflation even when shrinking the money supply as well as to have deflation even while growing the money supply. It wouldn't matter either way as long as there aren't any sudden fluctuations.

A larger money supply is only a problem if you hoard cash. Which you shouldn't do for obvious reasons.
 

beginner99

Diamond Member
Jun 2, 2009
5,216
1,589
136
they're keeping southern Europe in effective debt bondage. That's why Germany is successful,
The issues is the euro. 2 markets with different productivity simply can't share the same currency or else the less productive market will suffer badly and the more productive one will excel. This is best seen in Greece.
 
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