Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

Tigerick · Aug 22, 2022

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.

Comparison of upcoming Intel's U-series CPU: Core Ultra 100U, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

Model	Code-Name	Date	TDP	Node	Tiles	Main Tile	CPU	LP E-Core	LLC	GPU	Xe-cores
Core Ultra 100U	Meteor Lake	Q4 2023	15 - 57 W	Intel 4 + N5 + N6	4	tCPU	2P + 8E	2	12 MB	Intel Graphics	4
?	Lunar Lake	Q4 2024	17 - 30 W	N3B + N6	2	CPU + GPU & IMC	4P + 4E	0	8 MB	Arc	8
?	Panther Lake	Q1 2026 ?	?	Intel 18A + N3E	3	CPU + MC	4P + 8E	4	?	Arc	12

Comparison of die size of Each Tile of Meteor Lake, Arrow Lake, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

	Meteor Lake	Arrow Lake (20A)	Arrow Lake (N3B)	Arrow Lake Refresh (N3B)	Lunar Lake	Panther Lake
Platform	Mobile H/U Only	Desktop Only	Desktop & Mobile H&HX	Desktop Only	Mobile U Only	Mobile H
Process Node	Intel 4	Intel 20A	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	Intel 18A
Date	Q4 2023	Q1 2025 ?	Desktop-Q4-2024 H&HX-Q1-2025	Q4 2025 ?	Q4 2024	Q1 2026 ?
Full Die	6P + 8P	6P + 8E ?	8P + 16E	8P + 32E	4P + 4E	4P + 8E
LLC	24 MB	24 MB ?	36 MB ?	?	8 MB	?
tCPU	66.48
tGPU	44.45
SoC	96.77
IOE	44.45
Total	252.15

Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake

As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)

H433x0n · May 24, 2023

Exist50 said:
Intel 4/3 should be more like TSMC N5/N4 class competitors. There's a reason Intel's using N3 for Arrow Lake and Lunar Lake instead of Intel 3.

I'm guessing you're assuming that it's going to be heavily scaled back? The logic density is closer to N3 than it is to N4, while memory density is ~14% behind N4. Unless the half node step from Intel 4 -> 3 gets completely botched, the Intel 3 node will have the best performing HP cells available.

I've honestly got no clue why they're using N3, assuming that is what they're actually doing. N3x won't even be available for their launch window, which was the original node they were rumored to use.

JoeRambo · May 25, 2023

Exist50 said:
I expect memory latency to be one of MTL's great weaknesses. AFAIK, one of their main architects in that area left the company midway through MTL. And that's even ignoring any die to die penalty.

This requires a deeper discussion. Nowadays things have moved beyond just memory latency and i prefer term "memory subsystem". So things like larger L2 shielding weak L3, L3 cache size, X3D caches and L4 caching schemes are all accommodated into "average" memory latency that core has during certain workload.

So going from lower levels:

1) L2 to remain 2MB, this is a strong point of their memory subsystem and a lot of requests that spill from L2 on Z4, stay near core and save power and improve performance.
2) L3 => ADL had disaster level of L3, RPL mostly fixed it. I find it hard to imagine* that Intel managed to degrade L3 cache in compute die. That would make little sense to me. In fact their clock target rumours, the fact that IO is no longer on die and there are less nodes on intereconnect inside compute dies might mean:
L3 slice clock is now synchronous with cores and that improves both bandwidth and latency big time. AMD has excellent L3 for 8C CCD and there is no reason why Intel cannot have even better one.

So 1-2 are huge positives and would improve performance and power efficiency quite some. There can be L3 latency improvement of some 5-8ns.

3) This is gonna be Intel's ZEN2 like multi chip so i would not expect it to have good performance. "Infinity fabric" type of problems with clocking, latency and bandwidth are practically a certainty.

I think 2 and 3 have a chance to completely cancel out latency penalties, Intels current L3 is that bad even in RPL incarnation.

4) So now we have reached SoC tile where IMC and L4 cache resides. Without L4 cache enabled i think the chip could have similar memory subsystem performance to RPL, esp if DDR5 speed support is increased and IMC team does better than average.

It's with L4 enabled that things get hazy. checking tags for 512MB of L4 is not free operation and would add a quite some latency to each miss that has to go to memory. That's where I expect memory miss latency to degrade in "absolute" ns terms.
Except obviously having 128-512MB of L4 would have "scaling" benefits for a lot of workloads.

One thing to consider about L4 cache -> 64MB of EDRAM in Broadwell era required ~ 2MB L3 used for tags.
We have another vendor throwing silicon in chunks of 64MB of L3 that clocks 5Ghz in X3D chips.
Therefore SRAM for checking tags is not that big of a problem anymore. Beancounter problem, not technical "if we use silicon for L4 tags we will destroy our L3 transistor budget" problem.

* i also had trouble imagining that there are idiots that can design L3 that has DDR4 level of latency, but it was "achieved" by Intel this year in server chip.

mikk · May 25, 2023

Intel(R) Core(TM) Ultra 7 1003H (family: 0x6, model: 0xaa, stepping: 0x4)
Detected 3400.000 MHz processor

https://twitter.com/x/status/1661625710471962625

Big clock speed improvements over the steppings. This is base clock speed right?

stepping 0x1 1200 Mhz .......probably ES1
stepping 0x2 2300 Mhz .......probably ES2
stepping 0x4 3200 Mhz .......probably QS (no generic CPU ID for the first time should be QS!)

Hulk · May 25, 2023

I still hold the opinion that there will be no MTL-S because of the tremendous scaling/refinement of the 10nm process and the ADL/RPL design. Raptor Lake set the bar very high in terms of clocks for the first crack at the next process tech to reach. Once Intel realized that they could refine/push this process even further with a Raptor Lake Refresh, coupled with the relatively minor IPC increase of MTL that was the end for MTL-S.

In addition, they can keep cranking out 10nm (Intel 7) with the fabs that are already set up for it while working out the kinks in Intel 4 with the limited supplies required for a MTL mobile release. Couple this with the fact that MTL is a test bed of sorts for the new tiled layout and is supposedly pushing iGPU to new heights and it makes perfect sense to focus on those aspects of this new design/process. Once this is all worked out the transition to Intel 4 and tiles across the board will commence. This is the safe play in case something goes terribly wrong with Intel 4 and/or MTL Intel still has a viable product to ship. It would be a huge gamble to put everything on the table for Intel 4 and "roll the dice" that is works. It's just not how Intel operates. Slow and steady is more their style.

coercitiv · May 25, 2023

Hulk said:
I still hold the opinion that there will be no MTL-S because of the tremendous scaling/refinement of the 10nm process and the ADL/RPL design.

I disagree. MTL was supposed to be used in the value segment, where max turbo clocks hit ~5GHz this generation. Whether it was a better fit than ARL-S is another story, but we do know the value segment is more sensitive to pricing and efficiency. To me, giving up on MTL-S seems to be about reevaluated production costs and/or volumes.

lightisgood · May 25, 2023

mikk said:
Intel(R) Core(TM) Ultra 7 1003H (family: 0x6, model: 0xaa, stepping: 0x4)
Detected 3400.000 MHz processor

Wow, Meteor Lake gets 40% frequency improvement at iso-power (c.f. i7-13700H/6P8E/2.4GHz/45W) .
Intel 4 is a great work...

Hulk · May 25, 2023

coercitiv said:
I disagree. MTL was supposed to be used in the value segment, where max turbo clocks hit ~5GHz this generation. Whether it was a better fit than ARL-S is another story, but we do know the value segment is more sensitive to pricing and efficiency. To me, giving up on MTL-S seems to be about reevaluated production costs and/or volumes.

Yes that is a good insight, but production costs and volumes are directly related to not only the performance of the product in question but also other products in the manufacturers stack that can perform as well at lower manufacturing cost. Of course we each have our own opinions on this and this is a multivariate issue but I gleen from what we do know that one significant factor is the existence of another less production "risky" product as or more performant and less costly to produce, that being Raptor Refresh. Had it not existed or had Raptor not been as performant as it is would may have meant MTL-S would have see the light of day.

dullard · May 25, 2023

lightisgood said:
Wow, Meteor Lake gets 40% frequency improvement at iso-power (c.f. i7-13700H/6P8E/2.4GHz/45W) .
Intel 4 is a great work...

I think you are making a few too many unexplained assumptions in that post.
1) The leak is for MTL-P with a 1003H name. You compared it to an RPL-H mobile part. Why did you not compare it to an RPL-P part?
2) As far as I can see, the leak didn't specify power used. You just assumed 45W. Or did I miss something?
3) I don't have experience reading the intel-gfx-ci.01.org data, but how do we know the 3.4 GHz processor is the P cores at base?

Intel was predicting a 20% improvement, so 40% would be quite a big deal. I'm just not sure that we can get to that conclusion with this data.

mikk · May 25, 2023

dullard said:
I think you are making a few too many unexplained assumptions in that post.
1) The leak is for MTL-P with a 1003H name. You compared it to an RPL-H mobile part. Why did you not compare it to an RPL-P part?

It's more likely a 45W SKU. We have seen Sisoft entries from MTL-P 45W which matches the older Ultra 5 1003H leak (same driver version). In this case it seems plausible Ultra 7 1003H is also a 45W SKU.

dullard said:
Intel was predicting a 20% improvement, so 40% would be quite a big deal. I'm just not sure that we can get to that conclusion with this data.

According to Raichu the efficiency target for MTL over Raptor Lake at the same performance is at 1.5x. MLID says 30-45% less energy than Raptor Lake-R at same performance below 45W. Efficiency gains don't come from a node improvement only if it's a new architecture. As for Meteor Lake they can gain a lot from a separate voltage rail for the E-cores and maybe DLVR is working (might work in RPL-R already).

A/// · May 26, 2023

stop quoting that dummy mlid. he's got maggots for brains.

CakeMonster · May 26, 2023

Agreed, it makes me not want to engage, some content is taken too seriously and its just frustrating.

eek2121 · May 28, 2023

SiliconFly said:
IFS is many years away. My wild guess would be more than a decade at least. Intel needs a miracle to take on a IFS customer like Apple in 2025. I believe 2030 sounds more reasonable at best. Just my opinion.

Many actually miss this interesting fact. The biggest IFS customer for Intel is Intel itself. 20A & 18A may not make much money for Intel from foundry business, but if Intel manages to make good products with these and capture market share + make a decent profit, that should be good enough.

IFS has customers currently. Low volume specialty chips.

Exist50 said:
Where have you seen that claim? I doubt yields are better than Intel 7 before they've even started proper volume production.

Intel still has big design issues they need to solve, especially around power efficiency and battery life. A competitive node helps, but isn't sufficient. Notice how their battery life figures actually got worse TGL->ADL. They have a lot of work to do on the core side for loaded perf/watt, and then on the SoC side for battery life.

I expect memory latency to be one of MTL's great weaknesses. AFAIK, one of their main architects in that area left the company midway through MTL. And that's even ignoring any die to die penalty.

We'll see. Intel seems to view those nodes as pretty comparable, if they've mixing them across the product line.

Insiders that shall not be named.

A simple shrink from Intel 7 to Intel 4 would allow Raptor Lake to become more efficient than Zen 4. Keep that in mind.

EDIT: Raptor Lake on Intel 4 would need only 125W for the performance level that 230W allows for now.

Ajay · May 28, 2023

A/// said:
stop quoting that dummy mlid. he's got maggots for brains.

He gets things right occasionally. So does my magic 8-ball

Abwx · May 29, 2023

eek2121 said:
A simple shrink from Intel 7 to Intel 4 would allow Raptor Lake to become more efficient than Zen 4. Keep that in mind.

EDIT: Raptor Lake on Intel 4 would need only 125W for the performance level that 230W allows for now.

Thay already much refined their Intel 7 process for RPL compared to what they used for ADL, starting from here they will hardly get 2x the perf/watt at same perf, most probably something like 35% lower power for the first Intel 4 iteration at best.

mikk · May 29, 2023

Some Computex News:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1663168330507730946

Computerbase got task manager pictures from a 16 core MTL running at 3100 base clock: https://www.computerbase.de/2023-05...eit-fuer-kuenstliche-intelligenz-im-hands-on/

This is still a 0000 sample, so pretty sure the Ultra 7 1003H sample from intel-gfx-ci.01.org at 3400 Mhz is indeed the base clock.

A/// · May 29, 2023

intel 7 which is what those 2 are on is 10nm and not as dense as intel 4. big changes coming and starting with intel 4. people shouldnt look at intel as the tired and syphalitic village bicycle anymore. a new virgin mary is upon us.

A/// · May 29, 2023

mikk said:
Some Computex News:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1663168330507730946

Computerbase got task manager pictures from a 16 core MTL running at 3100 base clock: https://www.computerbase.de/2023-05...eit-fuer-kuenstliche-intelligenz-im-hands-on/

This is still a 0000 sample, so pretty sure the Ultra 7 1003H sample from intel-gfx-ci.01.org at 3400 Mhz is indeed the base clock.

can you post a bigger version of that tweet? I can't read a damn word even with glasses on.

Ajay · May 29, 2023

A/// said:
can you post a bigger version of that tweet? I can't read a damn word even with glasses on.

Here's the AT link. You can click on the pictures and they will give you a larger view.

Intel Discloses New Details On Meteor Lake VPU Block, Lays Out Vision For Client AI

www.anandtech.com

Screwed up on line I guess.

nicalandia · May 29, 2023

A/// said:
can you post a bigger version of that tweet? I can't read a damn word even with glasses on.

lightisgood · May 29, 2023

mikk said:
Some Computex News:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1663168330507730946

Computerbase got task manager pictures from a 16 core MTL running at 3100 base clock: https://www.computerbase.de/2023-05...eit-fuer-kuenstliche-intelligenz-im-hands-on/

This is still a 0000 sample, so pretty sure the Ultra 7 1003H sample from intel-gfx-ci.01.org at 3400 Mhz is indeed the base clock.

https://pics.computerbase.de/1/0/7/8/5/8-8bd6c4f596576eb9/article-640x360.fad670f9.jpg

3:2 aspect ratio suggests to equip itself with MTL-P.
MTL-P gets 60% frequency improvement at iso-power (c.f. i7-1370P/6P8E/1.9GHz/28W).

Dayman1225 · May 29, 2023

https://twitter.com/x/status/1663226643887067136

If anyone has a $1000 handy MTL can be yours now! Selling on eBay

mikk · May 29, 2023

Launch later this summer? New information about the new branding scheme early June says wccftech.

Before going into those details, we should also state the Meteor Lake CPUs are on track for launch later this summer and more details are going to be revealed in the third quarter of 2023 (August-September). Intel also told us that they will reveal information regarding the new "Core" branding scheme in early June so that's also not that far.

Intel Demos Meteor Lake's VPU, Delivering Huge Boost To Generative AI Content & Stable Diffusion

Intel Meteor Lake CPUs are right around the corner and the company gave us an early demo of the AI performance we can expect from its VPU.

wccftech.com

Hitman928 · May 29, 2023

Dayman1225 said:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1663226643887067136

If anyone has a $1000 handy MTL can be yours now! Selling on eBay

The landing array is very interesting.

A/// · May 29, 2023

nicalandia said:
View attachment 81158

View attachment 81159

not that. the marketing slide.

A/// · May 29, 2023

Ajay said:
Here's the AT link. You can click on the pictures and they will give you a larger view.

Intel Discloses New Details On Meteor Lake VPU Block, Lays Out Vision For Client AI

www.anandtech.com

Screwed up on line I guess.

thank you ajay.

Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

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