Discussion Apple Silicon SoC thread

Eug · Nov 10, 2020

M1
5 nm
Unified memory architecture - LP-DDR4
16 billion transistors

8-core CPU

4 high-performance cores
192 KB instruction cache
128 KB data cache
Shared 12 MB L2 cache

4 high-efficiency cores
128 KB instruction cache
64 KB data cache
Shared 4 MB L2 cache
(Apple claims the 4 high-effiency cores alone perform like a dual-core Intel MacBook Air)

8-core iGPU (but there is a 7-core variant, likely with one inactive core)
128 execution units
Up to 24576 concurrent threads
2.6 Teraflops
82 Gigatexels/s
41 gigapixels/s

16-core neural engine
Secure Enclave
USB 4

Products:
$999 ($899 edu) 13" MacBook Air (fanless) - 18 hour video playback battery life
$699 Mac mini (with fan)
$1299 ($1199 edu) 13" MacBook Pro (with fan) - 20 hour video playback battery life

Memory options 8 GB and 16 GB. No 32 GB option (unless you go Intel).

It should be noted that the M1 chip in these three Macs is the same (aside from GPU core number). Basically, Apple is taking the same approach which these chips as they do the iPhones and iPads. Just one SKU (excluding the X variants), which is the same across all iDevices (aside from maybe slight clock speed differences occasionally).

EDIT:

M1 Pro 8-core CPU (6+2), 14-core GPU
M1 Pro 10-core CPU (8+2), 14-core GPU
M1 Pro 10-core CPU (8+2), 16-core GPU
M1 Max 10-core CPU (8+2), 24-core GPU
M1 Max 10-core CPU (8+2), 32-core GPU

M1 Pro and M1 Max discussion here:

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M1 Ultra discussion here:

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M2 discussion here:

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Second Generation 5 nm
Unified memory architecture - LPDDR5, up to 24 GB and 100 GB/s
20 billion transistors

8-core CPU

4 high-performance cores
192 KB instruction cache
128 KB data cache
Shared 16 MB L2 cache

4 high-efficiency cores
128 KB instruction cache
64 KB data cache
Shared 4 MB L2 cache

10-core iGPU (but there is an 8-core variant)
3.6 Teraflops

16-core neural engine
Secure Enclave
USB 4

Hardware acceleration for 8K h.264, h.264, ProRes

M3 Family discussion here:

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M4 Family discussion here:

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Eug · Oct 13, 2023

Tigerick said:
iPhone 16 Series Chip Technology Moves to Volume Production

Apple has already given order commitments to chip supplier TSMC for its second-generation 3nm chip fabrication process known as N3E, which is...

www.macrumors.com

As expected, Apple has started the transition to N3E with A17/A18Pro, that's mean incoming M3/M3 Pro/Max/Ultra PCs are still manufactured using N3B process.

@Eug What do you think???

Just as a casual observer, I will say this:

1. That article doesn't say anything about M3.
2. That article says TSMC is already in N3E volume production.
3. I still think M3 Macs won't come until 2024.

igor_kavinski · Oct 13, 2023

Where is the $500 M3 chromebook competitor?

Think of the children, Apple!

Tigerick · Oct 13, 2023

igor_kavinski said:
Where is the $500 M3 chromebook competitor?

Think of the children, Apple!

Children love iPad

igor_kavinski · Oct 13, 2023

Tigerick said:
Children love iPad

Children need to learn to type on a proper keyboard too and do homework assignments and need a bigger screen.

Doug S · Oct 13, 2023

Eug said:
Just as a casual observer, I will say this:

1. That article doesn't say anything about M3.
2. That article says TSMC is already in N3E volume production.
3. I still think M3 Macs won't come until 2024.

I agree. I don't think we see next gen Macs until next spring, and they will contain M3s made on N3E.

Even if all "A17 Pro" are made with N3B, if there's an A17 "non Pro" next year made on N3E then clearly Apple has ported the core designs from N3B to N3E. So why would they use N3B for M3 unless they wanted to start selling them in the next month or two?

trivik12 · Oct 13, 2023

Interesting news about an IMac release happening really soon with M2/M2 pro. This will confirm M3 no earlier than Spring 2024.

Doug S · Oct 15, 2023

Thought this was interesting - a bit shocking actually. Keep in mind that what Statcounter calls "market share" is actually installed base share - they are measuring what people are actually using not what they are buying. macOS is now clearly over 30% installed base in the US, with Windows below 60%. People obviously keeping their Macs longer than Windows PCs.

https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/desktop/united-states-of-america#monthly-200901-202310

Mopetar · Oct 15, 2023

Installed base shouldn't be limited to adding up to 100%. I've got both Macs and PCs at home. How would I get counted in the figures if they have to sum to 100%.

Eug · Oct 15, 2023

Doug S said:
Thought this was interesting - a bit shocking actually. Keep in mind that what Statcounter calls "market share" is actually installed base share - they are measuring what people are actually using not what they are buying. macOS is now clearly over 30% installed base in the US, with Windows below 60%. People obviously keeping their Macs longer than Windows PCs.

https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/desktop/united-states-of-america#monthly-200901-202310

Linux on the desktop is right around the corner! Or are we counting ChromeOS as Linux these days?

Interesting stats though. I wouldn't have expected that macOS is 1/3rd of the installed userbase.

However, they have iOS listed there with a 0% share. What does that mean?

darkswordsman17 · Oct 15, 2023

Mopetar said:
Installed base shouldn't be limited to adding up to 100%. I've got both Macs and PCs at home. How would I get counted in the figures if they have to sum to 100%.

Um...wow. I really want to know what was going on in your brain that provided the logic behind that post.

Why wouldn't they just simply count the total and then mark the percentage based on that? So they'd count however many Macs and PCs you have. As they would for all, tally them all up and then go "this is the percent of the total that are Macs, this is the percent of the total that are PCs". Do you really think they'd be like well this person has Macs and PCs, so they have more than 100%.

Sometimes I think people try to make things much more complicated than needed. But hey, you put in 110% maximum effort.

Mopetar · Oct 15, 2023

How do they even measure how long people are keeping them for? You can't calculate installed base without that. Market share from sales is at least practical.

Also, was it really necessary to put on such a condescending tone?

Doug S · Oct 15, 2023

Mopetar said:
Installed base shouldn't be limited to adding up to 100%. I've got both Macs and PCs at home. How would I get counted in the figures if they have to sum to 100%.

They calculate based on hits to the top 4000 websites that have their instrumentation or something like that (can't remember the details and its possible I'm thinking of another similar company, but you can look it up on their site I'm sure) so by definition it does add up to exactly 100% because it is basically counting the number of unique PCs that hit one of those websites at least once. That's the denominator, your numerator is the number of unique Macs / Windows PCs / etc. that hit one of those websites at least once.

So if you used both your Mac and your PC to browse you were counted in both categories.

MarkizSchnitzel · Oct 16, 2023

Glo. said:
TAM is much more important, than individual ASPs.

VAST majority of markets currently are on ARM. We better deal with it and understand that desktop is dying platform.

Again. TAM is everything. PC gamign generates 30 bln USD in revenue. Its 1/5th of mobile gaming, but its still 30 bln USD in revenue.

Mobile gaming however will consume both: console and PC gaming. Its just natural progression of capabilities, and when smartphone SOCs will become robust, in capabilities, just like Apple's SOCs, but not only their - thats the moment when we will see more and more people turning to mobile gaming, because there will be more and more content, more and more games, and more and more people will play them.

Not to mention - its WAY easier to develop for mobile, and then scale it up to desktop and console, than develop for PC/console and scale it down to mobile.

I mean, 40 people team can develop a game in 2 years that can work on: mobile, console and PC increasing TAM incredibly, while cutting costs. Try to develop PC/Console-only game in 2 years with 40 people team. Good luck with that.

But it's not the same content?
I think the CONTENT is "at stake" here. Whether or not it was developed for PC or mobile first is completely irrelevant.

There are people who like intricate comparatively wast high fidelity video game content. Where they get it is irrelevant, so long as they can enjoy it with in their view adequate control schemes and on adequate screens.

It's like saying youtube canibalized TV programmes. And now tiktotk is canibalizing youtube. Sure it is.

Mopetar · Oct 17, 2023

Doug S said:
They calculate based on hits to the top 4000 websites that have their instrumentation or something like that (can't remember the details and its possible I'm thinking of another similar company, but you can look it up on their site I'm sure) so by definition it does add up to exactly 100% because it is basically counting the number of unique PCs that hit one of those websites at least once. That's the denominator, your numerator is the number of unique Macs / Windows PCs / etc. that hit one of those websites at least once.

So if you used both your Mac and your PC to browse you were counted in both categories.

At least it explains their figures, but I'd say it's not a particularly great way of measuring market share.

Some other data had Apple at about 17% share as far as sales go. I don't doubt that people tend to keep Macs for longer than other PCs. I don't know if its long enough to get them to a 30% installed base share.

There's too many office PCs, school computer labs, and other such things that skew the numbers pretty heavily in the other direction. Of course there's an argument to be made for not counting those if you wanted to specifically look at households.

Doug S · Oct 17, 2023

Mopetar said:
At least it explains their figures, but I'd say it's not a particularly great way of measuring market share.

Some other data had Apple at about 17% share as far as sales go. I don't doubt that people tend to keep Macs for longer than other PCs. I don't know if its long enough to get them to a 30% installed base share.

There's too many office PCs, school computer labs, and other such things that skew the numbers pretty heavily in the other direction. Of course there's an argument to be made for not counting those if you wanted to specifically look at households.

Some business PCs may never browse the web - PCs may be used on factory floors, for industrial process control, etc. that aren't even connected to the internet. If those are 2-3% of the market they are PCs sold that won't show up in an installed base measured via contact with websites.

You're right it isn't a particularly great way to measure market share, but I cannot think of a better way. Its like what Churchill said about democracy being the worst form of government, except for all the others.

eek2121 · Oct 19, 2023

igor_kavinski said:
Children need to learn to type on a proper keyboard too and do homework assignments and need a bigger screen.

They sell iPad keyboard cases, or you can pair a bluetooth keyboard. It is also possible to attach a monitor with some effort.

Doug S · Oct 19, 2023

eek2121 said:
They sell iPad keyboard cases, or you can pair a bluetooth keyboard. It is also possible to attach a monitor with some effort.

Kids have great vision, if anyone can get by with "only" a 10" display it is a child. So I don't buy his objection there, though of course as you point out the USB-C port (or Thunderbolt port on higher end models) allows attaching to a monitor/TV, though unless your have one with a USB-C or Thunderbolt input you'd need a dongle that breaks out HDMI.

Eug · Oct 20, 2023

Interesting that you should mention this.

My two kids both have iPad Airs 2s, and I tried getting Bluetooth case keyboards for them for use as a laptop replacement. This failed miserably, because the keyboards suck, and the experience isn't good. We have "full-size" (18 mm key spacing) Apple Smart Keyboards (so no Bluetooth pairing or battery charging required), on my wife's iPad 7 (2019) and my iPad Pro 10.5" (2017). However, ultimately, the kids wanted their own "real" computers, which work better for some educational apps and other apps. So, now one kid has a 2015 MacBook Pro (running Monterey) I got for cheap off eBay, and the other kid has my old 2010 27" iMac (running High Sierra) which I had previously been using just as an external monitor. Actually, for the iMac, I got a Logitech keyboard that can Bluetooth pair with multiple machines. It has function keys to select which device to use it with and works seamlessly amongst multiple devices. I have it paired with the iMac as the primary device, and the iPad as the secondary device, selectable with a touch of a button. However, it only ever gets used with the iMac. He just uses the on-screen keyboard for the iPad.

They still both spend more time on their iPads... but for some usage they definitely prefer Macs. When I upgrade to an OLED iPad, I will pass down my Smart Keyboard endowed iPad Pro to one of the kids, but I still think they'd rather use their Macs for that stuff.

BTW, since they both use Chromebooks at school, I had asked them if they wanted Chromebooks instead, but they both said no. They wanted Macs, even though they're both still just in elementary school.

igor_kavinski · Oct 21, 2023

Eug said:
They wanted Macs, even though they're both still just in elementary school.

Get them a cheap Windows laptop to play with too, lest you want them to experience one when they are much older and they cry, "Mommie!!!!"

FlameTail · Oct 23, 2023

https://x.com/Frederic_Orange/status/1711432628908253520?s=20

FlameTail · Oct 23, 2023

32 MB SLC?

smalM · Oct 23, 2023

24 MB SLC
Sloppy: They forgot the shared logic of the GPU, the shared logic of the NPU, the shared logic of the SLC, they missed ¾ of the P-AMX, and all of the E-AMX.

FlameTail · Oct 23, 2023

What is AMX?

Eug · Oct 23, 2023

Mark Gurman is guessing there is a Mac event next week.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1716065994995900691

Tigerick said:
iPhone 16 Series Chip Technology Moves to Volume Production

Apple has already given order commitments to chip supplier TSMC for its second-generation 3nm chip fabrication process known as N3E, which is...

www.macrumors.com

As expected, Apple has started the transition to N3E with A17/A18Pro, that's mean incoming M3/M3 Pro/Max/Ultra PCs are still manufactured using N3B process.

@Eug What do you think???

Eug said:
Just as a casual observer, I will say this:

1. That article doesn't say anything about M3.
2. That article says TSMC is already in N3E volume production.
3. I still think M3 Macs won't come until 2024.

Nothingness · Oct 23, 2023

FlameTail said:
What is AMX?

The matrix unit.

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