Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

Tigerick · Aug 22, 2022

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.

Comparison of upcoming Intel's U-series CPU: Core Ultra 100U, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

Model	Code-Name	Date	TDP	Node	Tiles	Main Tile	CPU	LP E-Core	LLC	GPU	Xe-cores
Core Ultra 100U	Meteor Lake	Q4 2023	15 - 57 W	Intel 4 + N5 + N6	4	tCPU	2P + 8E	2	12 MB	Intel Graphics	4
?	Lunar Lake	Q4 2024	17 - 30 W	N3B + N6	2	CPU + GPU & IMC	4P + 4E	0	8 MB	Arc	8
?	Panther Lake	Q1 2026 ?	?	Intel 18A + N3E	3	CPU + MC	4P + 8E	4	?	Arc	12

Comparison of die size of Each Tile of Meteor Lake, Arrow Lake, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

	Meteor Lake	Arrow Lake (20A)	Arrow Lake (N3B)	Arrow Lake Refresh (N3B)	Lunar Lake	Panther Lake
Platform	Mobile H/U Only	Desktop Only	Desktop & Mobile H&HX	Desktop Only	Mobile U Only	Mobile H
Process Node	Intel 4	Intel 20A	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	Intel 18A
Date	Q4 2023	Q1 2025 ?	Desktop-Q4-2024 H&HX-Q1-2025	Q4 2025 ?	Q4 2024	Q1 2026 ?
Full Die	6P + 8P	6P + 8E ?	8P + 16E	8P + 32E	4P + 4E	4P + 8E
LLC	24 MB	24 MB ?	36 MB ?	?	8 MB	?
tCPU	66.48
tGPU	44.45
SoC	96.77
IOE	44.45
Total	252.15

Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake

As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)

Markfw · Dec 13, 2023

Geddagod said:
Ma fault, but you do realize how... uhh... wild , let's call it that, it sounds for someone to say, I won't comment on stuff from Intel without confirmation, but I will comment on stuff from random leakers, right? Like I'm not even gonna say anything else abt it tho if you want me to chill lol

If Zen 5 is as kickass as you say, no one is gonna be able to afford it
Esp when ARL leaks are so unimpressive lol

Just one more thing.... I did say that I hope Zen 5 is as good as it sounds, but I said even for that, I would reserve comments until its out.

But remember this sapphire rapids is a dud. Genoa/Bergamo kick butt. Thats what I meant when I said Intel is not delivering, and AMD is AT THE MOMENT.

Khato · Dec 13, 2023

Abwx said:
They also state that the 1370P has 2% better MT perf than the 7840U, wich only happen if the 1370P pull roughly 45W while the 7840U is at 28W or so.

I'd be curious as to the source for that claim? One of the best comparisons between the 1370P and 7840U I've found would be notebookcheck's review of the 7840U based Framework 13.5 which included numbers from their review of the 1370P variant of the same laptop. Power levels are apparently 51W/35W for the 7840U variant and 55W/30W for the 1370P. My impression of the multithread benchmark results is that the 7840U might have a slight efficiency advantage, but it's not much. eg, 12822 minimum R23 for the 7840U at 35W versus 11903 minimum for the 1370P at 30W is pretty much on par.

So many cases I've seen touting superior efficiency for AMD on the mobile side compare 2+8 or 4+8 Intel against an 8 core AMD. Once it's 6+8 vs 8 Intel doesn't look quite so bad. Of course battery life and graphics capability still left a fair bit to be desired, but MTL is promising to rectify that. And current indicators are that there's not going to be a 4+ month wait between launch and availability.

H433x0n · Dec 13, 2023

Khato said:
I'd be curious as to the source for that claim? One of the best comparisons between the 1370P and 7840U I've found would be notebookcheck's review of the 7840U based Framework 13.5 which included numbers from their review of the 1370P variant of the same laptop. Power levels are apparently 51W/35W for the 7840U variant and 55W/30W for the 1370P. My impression of the multithread benchmark results is that the 7840U might have a slight efficiency advantage, but it's not much. eg, 12822 minimum R23 for the 7840U at 35W versus 11903 minimum for the 1370P at 30W is pretty much on par.

So many cases I've seen touting superior efficiency for AMD on the mobile side compare 2+8 or 4+8 Intel against an 8 core AMD. Once it's 6+8 vs 8 Intel doesn't look quite so bad. Of course battery life and graphics capability still left a fair bit to be desired, but MTL is promising to rectify that. And current indicators are that there's not going to be a 4+ month wait between launch and availability.

Notebookcheck website sort of sucks. I can view the scores but I can't see where you can view the power consumption. is there some graph I'm missing?

Khato · Dec 14, 2023

H433x0n said:
Notebookcheck website sort of sucks. I can view the scores but I can't see where you can view the power consumption. is there some graph I'm missing?

No question there, but it's the best source of data on laptops I'm aware of. The 'power consumption' section of the review shows some power traces of the full laptop, but it's usually just representative of the turbo power limits. The 'stress test' section usually includes the CPU package power for both turbo and sustained. The other place that information is reported is on their processor spec and benchmark page. eg, for the 7840u - https://www.notebookcheck.net/AMD-Ryzen-7-7840U-Processor-Benchmarks-and-Specs.716412.0.html - you can go down to Cinebench R23 and click on the '7 benchmarks and specifications' to see the specific laptops benchmarked with that processor and their corresponding power limits.

H433x0n · Dec 14, 2023

Khato said:
No question there, but it's the best source of data on laptops I'm aware of. The 'power consumption' section of the review shows some power traces of the full laptop, but it's usually just representative of the turbo power limits. The 'stress test' section usually includes the CPU package power for both turbo and sustained. The other place that information is reported is on their processor spec and benchmark page. eg, for the 7840u - https://www.notebookcheck.net/AMD-Ryzen-7-7840U-Processor-Benchmarks-and-Specs.716412.0.html - you can go down to Cinebench R23 and click on the '7 benchmarks and specifications' to see the specific laptops benchmarked with that processor and their corresponding power limits.

Yeah, I see it. Looks like it’s roughly 6-8% stronger at 50-55W range.

Abwx · Dec 14, 2023

Khato said:
I'd be curious as to the source for that claim? One of the best comparisons between the 1370P and 7840U I've found would be notebookcheck's review of the 7840U based Framework 13.5 which included numbers from their review of the 1370P variant of the same laptop. Power levels are apparently 51W/35W for the 7840U variant and 55W/30W for the 1370P. My impression of the multithread benchmark results is that the 7840U might have a slight efficiency advantage, but it's not much. eg, 12822 minimum R23 for the 7840U at 35W versus 11903 minimum for the 1370P at 30W is pretty much on par.

So many cases I've seen touting superior efficiency for AMD on the mobile side compare 2+8 or 4+8 Intel against an 8 core AMD. Once it's 6+8 vs 8 Intel doesn't look quite so bad. Of course battery life and graphics capability still left a fair bit to be desired, but MTL is promising to rectify that. And current indicators are that there's not going to be a 4+ month wait between launch and availability.

The Cinebench R15 score of the Framework 7840U doesnt vary with the number of runs and score is the same from the first to the last run at about 2170 pts, wich say that power doesnt move, during the first Cinebench run power measured at the main spike at 55W before going to 50W for the rest of the bench.

That s 50W delta at the main and about 39W at the CPU level for 1/3 of the bench duration and about 35W for the remaining 2/3.

The Framework laptop with a 1370P run the first run at 60W for the laptop and 55W for the CPU, the discrepancy comes from the Framework AC adapator that is only 60W, so it s overloaded during CB runs and the laptop has to extract the rest from the battery, that s why it s not visible in the main power measurement, the score of NBC is the first run at 55W CPU power.

At the end of the day the 7840U perform 6% better at an average of 37W than a 1370P running at 55W, if we normalize to the 1370P perf then the 7840U would require only 32-33W to score the same as the 1370P@55W.

Abwx · Dec 14, 2023

H433x0n said:
Yeah, I see it. Looks like it’s roughly 6-8% stronger at 50-55W range.

You see nothing actually, the Framework laptop using the 7840U does go shortly to 55W and then go to 50W during the CB run, measured at the main, and you think that the CPU use 50-55W to run CB..?..

Better to read the reviews before concluding, otherwise you end spreading fairy tales...

igor_kavinski · Dec 14, 2023

I don't get why AMD is being "nice". They could easily rain on Intel's MTL parade by unveiling mobile Zen 5 benchmark scores TODAY. They hired a bunch of Intel sympathizers? From Israel?

Abwx · Dec 14, 2023

igor_kavinski said:
I don't get why AMD is being "nice". They could easily rain on Intel's MTL parade by unveiling mobile Zen 5 benchmark scores TODAY. They hired a bunch of Intel sympathizers? From Israel?

To rain on what..?.
There s no published numbers, only a last moment marketing fair with some made up numbers, but still they did, by launching the 8000 series just a week before MTL.

Khato · Dec 14, 2023

Abwx said:
The Cinebench R15 score of the Framework 7840U doesnt vary with the number of runs and score is the same from the first to the last run at about 2170 pts, wich say that power doesnt move, during the first Cinebench run power measured at the main spike at 55W before going to 50W for the rest of the bench.

That s 50W delta at the main and about 39W at the CPU level for 1/3 of the bench duration and about 35W for the remaining 2/3.

The Framework laptop with a 1370P run the first run at 60W for the laptop and 55W for the CPU, the discrepancy comes from the Framework AC adapator that is only 60W, so it s overloaded during CB runs and the laptop has to extract the rest from the battery, that s why it s not visible in the main power measurement, the score of NBC is the first run at 55W CPU power.

At the end of the day the 7840U perform 6% better at an average of 37W than a 1370P running at 55W, if we normalize to the 1370P perf then the 7840U would require only 32-33W to score the same as the 1370P@55W.

Nope. On the first run of CB15 MT the 1370P based Framework 13.5 score is 2492. Well above any of the scores for the 7840U variant due to the longer turbo power duration on Intel versus AMD. That would be the reason why we prefer looking at the steady state runs after the first, where the 7840U at 35W shows around 2170 on average compared to around 1850 for the 1370P running at 30W. So 17% higher performance for 16% higher power, which is again indicative of a clear minor advantage for AMD. But nowhere near what the AMD fans like to imply.

igor_kavinski · Dec 14, 2023

Abwx said:
by launching the 8000 series just a week before MTL.

I want AMD to publish their full Strix Point benchmark slides.

Khato · Dec 14, 2023

Abwx said:
To rain on what..?.
There s no published numbers, only a last moment marketing fair with some made up numbers, but still they did, by launching the 8000 series just a week before MTL.

Did AMD mention in their 'launch' when said 8000 series would actually be available in products?

TESKATLIPOKA · Dec 14, 2023

H433x0n said:
Notebookcheck website sort of sucks. I can view the scores but I can't see where you can view the power consumption. is there some graph I'm missing?

Khato said:
No question there, but it's the best source of data on laptops I'm aware of. The 'power consumption' section of the review shows some power traces of the full laptop, but it's usually just representative of the turbo power limits. The 'stress test' section usually includes the CPU package power for both turbo and sustained. The other place that information is reported is on their processor spec and benchmark page. eg, for the 7840u - https://www.notebookcheck.net/AMD-Ryzen-7-7840U-Processor-Benchmarks-and-Specs.716412.0.html - you can go down to Cinebench R23 and click on the '7 benchmarks and specifications' to see the specific laptops benchmarked with that processor and their corresponding power limits.

Notebookcheck reviews are not bad, but It can wary somewhat depending on who wrote them. Still, you can find CPU clocks, power consumption and temperatures during R15 loop in their reviews, but not always(depending on author), and this is very useful. Link

adroc_thurston · Dec 14, 2023

Geddagod said:
If Zen 5 is as kickass as you say, no one is gonna be able to afford it

Top dog part for top dog price; rules are those since times immemorial.

igor_kavinski said:
I don't get why AMD is being "nice". They could easily rain on Intel's MTL parade by unveiling mobile Zen 5 benchmark scores TODAY. They hired a bunch of Intel sympathizers? From Israel?

Because they just don't care.
The part is June'24 launch, why talk about it until then?

TESKATLIPOKA · Dec 14, 2023

adroc_thurston said:
Top dog part for top dog price; rules are those since times immemorial.

Then I am glad Strix Point is not the top dog but Strix Halo.

adroc_thurston said:
Because they just don't care.
The part is June'24 launch, why talk about it until then?

That's still a long time away, especially If someone wants to buy It, basically 3/4 year away at least If not longer.

Does Intel have anything against Strix planned? Lunar looks like 2025 to me.

Abwx · Dec 14, 2023

Khato said:
Nope. On the first run of CB15 MT the 1370P based Framework 13.5 score is 2492.

I was talking of the 7840U power that is not varying much, the 13700P does the first run at 55W and then throttle for the rest of the runs, compare to the 7840U wich has low score variation.

Khato said:
Well above any of the scores for the 7840U variant due to the longer turbo power duration on Intel versus AMD. That would be the reason why we prefer looking at the steady state runs after the first, where the 7840U at 35W shows around 2170 on average compared to around 1850 for the 1370P running at 30W. So 17% higher performance for 16% higher power, which is again indicative of a clear minor advantage for AMD. But nowhere near what the AMD fans like to imply.

The AMD laptop consume 55W on the first spike (at the main) at most and does not overload the AC adapter, idle power is about 5W, so that let at most 38-40W for short duration for the CPU, the test end at 50W on the main, so that s 45W delta at the main and about 35W at the CPU level accounting for the AC adaptor and laptop VRMs losses.

So 55W for the 1370P and an average of 37W at most for the 7840U, if we dial down the 7840U CB R23 score down to the level of the 1370P then it would use 32W at most.

Khato said:
Did AMD mention in their 'launch' when said 8000 series would actually be available in products?

AMD Ryzen 8000 „Hawk Point“: Refresh mit 40 Prozent mehr AI-Leistung soll Intel ärgern

Cleverer Schachzug von AMD: Eine Woche vor Intels Meteor-Lake-Core-Ultra-Start kündigt AMD die zweite Generation AI-Prozessoren an.

www.computerbase.de

Tup3x · Dec 14, 2023

Not too bad to be honest. Should have launched six months earlier but considering AMDs underwhelming refresh, it doesn't matter that much. Future looks interesting.

H433x0n · Dec 14, 2023

igor_kavinski said:
I want AMD to publish their full Strix Point benchmark slides.

Why? It’s not out yet. Should Intel release ARL slides 6 months ahead of time when Strix Point gets released?

igor_kavinski · Dec 14, 2023

I hate that AMD is being lazy coz Intel is so slow.

igor_kavinski · Dec 14, 2023

H433x0n said:
Why? It’s not out yet. Should Intel release ARL slides 6 months ahead of time when Strix Point gets released?

Uhhh YESSSS!

It's called being competitive.

TESKATLIPOKA · Dec 14, 2023

igor_kavinski said:
Uhhh YESSSS!

It's called being competitive.

Being competitive in presenting marketing slides?

coercitiv · Dec 14, 2023

So at least now we have some performance claims, and they look juicy enough. I hope Intel managed to push a real design win towards the press for early reviews, alternatively I'll take a reference platform.

adroc_thurston · Dec 14, 2023

TESKATLIPOKA said:
Then I am glad Strix Point is not the top dog but Strix Halo.

Halo is very special.

TESKATLIPOKA said:
Does Intel have anything against Strix planned

Technically ARL-H but that's roadkill materiel.

igor_kavinski said:
Uhhh YESSSS!

It's called being competitive.

The opposite, you don't talk stuff when you're gonna roadkill your comp.

igor_kavinski · Dec 14, 2023

adroc_thurston said:
The opposite, you don't talk stuff when you're gonna roadkill your comp.

People have limited buying capacity. They are not gonna replace an MTL laptop just coz AMD released something better six months later. That's a loss of sales for AMD. If AMD talks, it helps people make a better, informed buying decision by waiting for something better. People are not gonna wait based on rumors. At least, not average joe. But official confirmation from a company carries weight.

adroc_thurston · Dec 14, 2023

igor_kavinski said:
People have limited buying capacity. They are not gonna replace an MTL laptop just coz AMD released something better six months later. That's a loss of sales for AMD. If AMD talks, it helps people make a better, informed buying decision by waiting for something better. People are not gonna wait based on rumors. At least, not average joe. But official confirmation from a company carries weight.

They just don't care.
The policy is don't talk until it's ready.
They're popping RDNA4 kernel patches out like candies but talking before Computex is no bueno.

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