Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

Tigerick · Aug 22, 2022

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.

Comparison of upcoming Intel's U-series CPU: Core Ultra 100U, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

Model	Code-Name	Date	TDP	Node	Tiles	Main Tile	CPU	LP E-Core	LLC	GPU	Xe-cores
Core Ultra 100U	Meteor Lake	Q4 2023	15 - 57 W	Intel 4 + N5 + N6	4	tCPU	2P + 8E	2	12 MB	Intel Graphics	4
?	Lunar Lake	Q4 2024	17 - 30 W	N3B + N6	2	CPU + GPU & IMC	4P + 4E	0	8 MB	Arc	8
?	Panther Lake	Q1 2026 ?	?	Intel 18A + N3E	3	CPU + MC	4P + 8E	4	?	Arc	12

Comparison of die size of Each Tile of Meteor Lake, Arrow Lake, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

	Meteor Lake	Arrow Lake (20A)	Arrow Lake (N3B)	Arrow Lake Refresh (N3B)	Lunar Lake	Panther Lake
Platform	Mobile H/U Only	Desktop Only	Desktop & Mobile H&HX	Desktop Only	Mobile U Only	Mobile H
Process Node	Intel 4	Intel 20A	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	Intel 18A
Date	Q4 2023	Q1 2025 ?	Desktop-Q4-2024 H&HX-Q1-2025	Q4 2025 ?	Q4 2024	Q1 2026 ?
Full Die	6P + 8P	6P + 8E ?	8P + 16E	8P + 32E	4P + 4E	4P + 8E
LLC	24 MB	24 MB ?	36 MB ?	?	8 MB	?
tCPU	66.48
tGPU	44.45
SoC	96.77
IOE	44.45
Total	252.15

Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake

As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)

Khato · Dec 14, 2023

Abwx said:
Well, in their WLAN surfing test NBC got 479 minutes with a 65Wh battery, a comparable 14" laptop with a 7840U and a 68Wh battery last 510mn, so dunno if its as efficient in regular light usage than some would think, but for sure that Intel marketing was very efficient to spin the numbers...

https://www.notebookcheck.com/Acer-Swift-Go-14-im-Test-Meteor-Lake-Core-Ultra-7-ueberzeugt-mit-KI-Kern.782442.0.html

Heh, and they're even kind enough to provide WLAN battery life numbers for both the HP Pavilion Plus 14 in R7 7840U and i7-1355U variants, which achieve 510 minutes and 578 minutes respectively. And we all know that RPL shouldn't be showing better battery life than either Phoenix or MTL. Simple explanation here is as per the commentary, "According to our energy measurements, it is the OLED panel that consumes the most power while surfing." Until such time as OLED screens in laptops catch up on efficiency it'd be nice if high-end IPS screens were still offered as an alternative for those who care about battery life. (Was there a single MTL laptop announced today that didn't have an OLED panel?)

Abwx · Dec 14, 2023

Khato said:
Heh, and they're even kind enough to provide WLAN battery life numbers for both the HP Pavilion Plus 14 in R7 7840U and i7-1355U variants, which achieve 510 minutes and 578 minutes respectively. And we all know that RPL shouldn't be showing better battery life than either Phoenix or MTL. Simple explanation here is as per the commentary, "According to our energy measurements, it is the OLED panel that consumes the most power while surfing." Until such time as OLED screens in laptops catch up on efficiency it'd be nice if high-end IPS screens were still offered as an alternative for those who care about battery life. (Was there a single MTL laptop announced today that didn't have an OLED panel?)

It s just that the 7840U laptop is the only one with regular DDR5, both MTL and the 1355U use LPDDR5 wich use less power, that has a footprint at low power usage...

Also despite Acer setting the 155H to PL2 55W/PL1 45W the laptop still manage to go up to 103W in Prime 95, wich say that it boost well above 55W and likely at least at 70W.

That being said Computerbase review has more technical content, FI a single core at 4.6GHz use 25W and 30W at 4.8GHz, on MT power is 45W at 2.9GHz and 35W at 2.4GHz.

Obviously Intel 4 has difficulties reaching high frequencies, in the vicinity of 5GHz that seems less efficient than RPL.

jpiniero · Dec 14, 2023

Lenovo has a Core Ultra 5 laptop for under a grand.

tamz_msc · Dec 14, 2023

Too much emphasis on power figures while clearly failing to acknowledge the performance gains, IMO.

Here is Computerbase testing Jetstream 2.1 using an outdated version of Chrome (version 104):

Core 7 Ultra 155H (35 W PL1) - 237.382

My Core i7-11370H (30 W PL1, Edge 120) - 236.565

I wouldn't be surprised if the 155H breaches 300 points and competes with the M3 Max with a newer version of Chrome/Edge.

Oh, and AV1 transcoding on CPU, transcoding a 2160p60 H.264 video to 2160p30 AV1:

Faster than M3 Max

And with GPU? Under a minute:

Of course, it is futile trying to convince that people do not run Cinebench on loop on a laptop.

FlameTail · Dec 14, 2023

Tup3x said:
I was about to say the same. A bit funny how they are trying to flex against obsolete and ancient PC Snapdragon... Maybe they are a bit scared that things may not go the way they want in the near future.

Of course. We know what the preliminary performance numbers of the Snapdragon X Elite chip is, and it wipes the floor with Meteor Lake.

Of course, the X Elite SoC isn't still out yet, so right now the best Qualcomm PC chip you can buy is the 8cx Gen 3, which is ~2 years old now. Intel took a swipe at Qualcomm while they are down.

Markfw · Dec 14, 2023

tamz_msc said:
Too much emphasis on power figures while clearly failing to acknowledge the performance gains, IMO.

Here is Computerbase testing Jetstream 2.1 using an outdated version of Chrome (version 104):

Core 7 Ultra 155H (35 W PL1) - 237.382
View attachment 90441

My Core i7-11370H (30 W PL1, Edge 120) - 236.565

View attachment 90438

I wouldn't be surprised if the 155H breaches 300 points and competes with the M3 Max with a newer version of Chrome/Edge.

Oh, and AV1 transcoding on CPU, transcoding a 2160p60 H.264 video to 2160p30 AV1:

View attachment 90442

Faster than M3 Max

And with GPU? Under a minute:

View attachment 90443

Of course, it is futile trying to convince that people do not run Cinebench on loop on a laptop.

And of course no 7940 chips are in those.

tamz_msc · Dec 14, 2023

Markfw said:
And of course no 7940 chips are in those.

Go to the website and you'll find the full charts.

Goop_reformed · Dec 14, 2023

Just read and watched tons of stuff. Yeah it's absolute trash.

Thunder 57 · Dec 14, 2023

Goop_reformed said:
Just read and watched tons of stuff. Yeah it's absolute trash.

Turd sandwhich. No wonder there were no leaks as to CPU performance.

TESKATLIPOKA · Dec 14, 2023

SiliconFly said:
A core ultra 7 with 32gb ram, 1 tb ssd & qhd at around 900 to 1000 usd is reasonable. 1300 is overpriced imho.

7840U(HS) is not cheaper either. Only the IdeaPad Pro 5 14APH8 model is really cheap, at least in my country, should be similar in other European countries.

TESKATLIPOKA · Dec 14, 2023

Laptops are not accurate for power consumption comparison, unless they are the same model with different CPU.
I think some mini PC would be better for comparison.

Goop_reformed · Dec 14, 2023

Thunder 57 said:
Turd sandwhich. No wonder there were no leaks as to CPU performance.

Yep, just so f-ing bad. The people who call this good are either paid shill or blind. And I don't understand their arguments neither.

So there's a new line of Intel laptop, right? Oh yeah? Is it good? Well actually no, if you push it too hard. Okay so is it more efficient ? Yes, but actually no, just use it less.

Jesus Christ this thing is so bad!

Hulk · Dec 15, 2023

Goop_reformed said:
Yep, just so f-ing bad. The people who call this good are either paid shill or blind. And I don't understand their arguments neither.

Or even worse a blind paid shill.

trivik12 · Dec 15, 2023

Raptor Lake U series has good battery life. Of course you get only 2 p cores. for battery champ we need LG to release Gram laptop. That is normally designed for long battery life. this year with 1360p has good battery life.

QuickyDuck · Dec 15, 2023

icelake flashback

Khato · Dec 15, 2023

What exactly is bad about MTL again? Single thread performance isn't as good as RPL, but it's still in line with competition. CPU efficiency remains behind competition, but it's closer to 15% behind instead of 20-25%. Graphics looks to be on par with AMD at least, with the usual of being ahead on some games and behind on others. Battery life is the one major metric that's less clear with the currently available reviews, but indications are that it's markedly improved compared to RPL and likely on par. What's 'bad' about all this?

What is quite obvious from the reviews is why the desktop variant was cancelled. Maintaining highest possible performance there is far more important than a minor gain in efficiency.

coercitiv · Dec 15, 2023

Khato said:
What exactly is bad about MTL again? Single thread performance isn't as good as RPL, but it's still in line with competition. CPU efficiency remains behind competition, but it's closer to 15% behind instead of 20-25%. Graphics looks to be on par with AMD at least, with the usual of being ahead on some games and behind on others. Battery life is the one major metric that's less clear with the currently available reviews, but indications are that it's markedly improved compared to RPL and likely on par. What's 'bad' about all this?

This is the result of the hype in the forum. Extraordinary claims were made with regards to power consumption boosting battery life and higher base clocks being indicative of massive MT performance boost. The product delivers moderately on both fronts. We had claims MTL would reign supreme over whatever AMD had for 2024, now we realize it's "just" a competitive product. So the folks are dunking on the product as a way to make fun of the past hype.

I'll tell you what great about MTL: the greatest achievement of this product is to deliver the first tile based implementation that is working as intended. Lakefield failed, Sapphire Rapids was too big to fail but had massive issues and delays. Technically Emerald Rapids launched at the same time on Dec 14, but the tiled approach is now very limited there.

And IMHO what's really bad about MTL is the marketing. I have yet to see another company launch a new product and manage to communicate their competition's flagship SKU name better than their own. But that's just something to laugh about, it won't really affect sales.

Geddagod · Dec 15, 2023

coercitiv said:
This is the result of the hype in the forum. Extraordinary claims were made with regards to power consumption boosting battery life and higher base clocks being indicative of massive MT performance boost. The product delivers moderately on both fronts. We had claims MTL would reign supreme over whatever AMD had for 2024, now we realize it's "just" a competitive product. So the folks are dunking on the product as a way to make fun of the past hype.

I'll tell you what great about MTL: the greatest achievement of this product is to deliver the first tile based implementation that is working as intended. Lakefield failed, Sapphire Rapids was too big to fail but had massive issues and delays. Technically Emerald Rapids launched at the same time on Dec 14, but the tiled approach is now very limited there.

And IMHO what's really bad about MTL is the marketing. I have yet to see another company launch a new product and manage to communicate their competition's flagship SKU name better than their own. But that's just something to laugh about, it won't really affect sales.

It's not even hype to expect RWC to improve perf/watt over RPC, it's common sense. It's on a new node, it definitely should bring PPW improvements. And yet, we got nothing. This is, by far, the biggest gripe over MTL.
And yet, I agree there have been a bunch of over reactions abt MTL. It's bad, but it's not the birth of the anti christ or whatever tf some people on this sub seem to think lol.
Lastly, abt the success of MTL being Intel's first tiled CPU, I mean it's nice Intel can commercialize it for the masses, but AMD has much more impressive packaging. 3D Vcache is arguably more impressive in the packaging department, and MI300 is on a whole nother level, tho that's HPC. So kudos to Intel for that ig, but it's like... eh?

SiliconFly · Dec 15, 2023

coercitiv said:
...result of the hype...

Very true. It's hilarious to see one set of people saying MTL is as bad as bulldozer (or even worse) and the other set of people saying it's the awesomest ever!

Last 24 hours has been better than watching sports!

coercitiv said:
I'll tell you what great about MTL: the greatest achievement of this product is to deliver the first tile based implementation that is working as intended.

Yep. MTL's RWC was a safe bet for Intel. ARL is gonna be their first true moonshot in client (with LNC & 20A). I think ARL's CPU tile will get more than 50% PPW gain over MTL's CPU tile. Their first true Apple competitior.

Geddagod · Dec 15, 2023

SiliconFly said:
Last 24 hours has been better than watching sports!

Have you watched the Raiders vs Chargers game tn?

TESKATLIPOKA · Dec 15, 2023

SiliconFly said:
ARL is gonna be their first true moonshot in client (with LNC & 20A). I think ARL's CPU tile will get more than 50% PPW gain over MTL's CPU tile. Their first true Apple competitior.

Let the hype begin.

Kepler_L2 · Dec 15, 2023

SiliconFly said:
Very true. It's hilarious to see one set of people saying MTL is as bad as bulldozer (or even worse) and the other set of people saying it's the awesomest ever!

Last 24 hours has been better than watching sports!

Yep. MTL's RWC was a safe bet for Intel. ARL is gonna be their first true moonshot in client (with LNC & 20A). I think ARL's CPU tile will get more than 50% PPW gain over MTL's CPU tile. Their first true Apple competitior.

I remember when MTL was supposed to be RPL perf at half the power.

CouncilorIrissa · Dec 15, 2023

Geddagod said:
It's not even hype to expect RWC to improve perf/watt over RPC, it's common sense. It's on a new node, it definitely should bring PPW improvements. And yet, we got nothing. This is, by far, the biggest gripe over MTL.
And yet, I agree there have been a bunch of over reactions abt MTL. It's bad, but it's not the birth of the anti christ or whatever tf some people on this sub seem to think lol.
Lastly, abt the success of MTL being Intel's first tiled CPU, I mean it's nice Intel can commercialize it for the masses, but AMD has much more impressive packaging. 3D Vcache is arguably more impressive in the packaging department, and MI300 is on a whole nother level, tho that's HPC. So kudos to Intel for that ig, but it's like... eh?

Did anandtech forums migrate to reddit and no one noticed?

Goop_reformed · Dec 15, 2023

There it is again, the usual suspect(s).

This is MTL right now:

Expensive packaging technology: Check
New cores: Check
New node: Check
New branding: Check
New graphics tiles: Check

The end result? Can't even beat the competitor released 3Qs before, can't even beat their own previous cores. Also paper launch.

Any posters defending this type of behavior are objectively lying to themselves. Quite a sad launch, and does not bode well for arrow lake, which also is projected to have minor performance uplift over a 2(!!) year olds part.

Tarkin77 · Dec 15, 2023

Pat Gelsinger 18 Month ago:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1552777744718651392

Intel can't be trusted.

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