Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

Tigerick · Aug 22, 2022

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.

Comparison of upcoming Intel's U-series CPU: Core Ultra 100U, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

Model	Code-Name	Date	TDP	Node	Tiles	Main Tile	CPU	LP E-Core	LLC	GPU	Xe-cores
Core Ultra 100U	Meteor Lake	Q4 2023	15 - 57 W	Intel 4 + N5 + N6	4	tCPU	2P + 8E	2	12 MB	Intel Graphics	4
?	Lunar Lake	Q4 2024	17 - 30 W	N3B + N6	2	CPU + GPU & IMC	4P + 4E	0	8 MB	Arc	8
?	Panther Lake	Q1 2026 ?	?	Intel 18A + N3E	3	CPU + MC	4P + 8E	4	?	Arc	12

Comparison of die size of Each Tile of Meteor Lake, Arrow Lake, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

	Meteor Lake	Arrow Lake (20A)	Arrow Lake (N3B)	Arrow Lake Refresh (N3B)	Lunar Lake	Panther Lake
Platform	Mobile H/U Only	Desktop Only	Desktop & Mobile H&HX	Desktop Only	Mobile U Only	Mobile H
Process Node	Intel 4	Intel 20A	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	Intel 18A
Date	Q4 2023	Q1 2025 ?	Desktop-Q4-2024 H&HX-Q1-2025	Q4 2025 ?	Q4 2024	Q1 2026 ?
Full Die	6P + 8P	6P + 8E ?	8P + 16E	8P + 32E	4P + 4E	4P + 8E
LLC	24 MB	24 MB ?	36 MB ?	?	8 MB	?
tCPU	66.48
tGPU	44.45
SoC	96.77
IOE	44.45
Total	252.15

Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake

As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)

FlameTail · Dec 18, 2023

igor_kavinski said:
Uh WHAT???

Why isn't Intel mentioning this in their MTL launch slides? Why do they have dissimilar P-core clusters? Does the first cluster have more cache than the second cluster or just that the first cluster has more cache available to share between its two P-cores? This is getting ridiculous. So now there are multiple levels of cores in an Intel CPU. Level 1 and Level 2 P-cores, then E-cores and finally LP E-cores.

Wow. In the span of a few years, Intel went from having just one core type to four types now?

That's straight up rivalling ARM CPUs in Android phones in terms of the variety of core types.

But unfortunately compared to Android, Windows does not have a good scheduler.

tamz_msc · Dec 18, 2023

leoneazzurro said:
These two games are so light that the test is practically always CPU bound, so for testing the GPU these are not the best examples. As a general review, these are OK, one must keep present that on more GPU demanding titles the situation may be quite different.

Dota 2 and League of Legends are used in every iGPU comparison showing off gaming performance - even AMD uses them.

Hulk · Dec 18, 2023

deasd said:
I don't understand. They seem pumping up E core performance to offset the P core regression, which is a bad move. And while even they added more weak cores, efficieny is still behind the competition.

All give me impression they are following every trend like big/little, AI, and imitate Apple, they did all they can do but every metric is underperforming. I'm afraid Intel lost its way.

OTOH what's interesting is, TechEpiphany pointed out the chinese reviewer was cherrypicking:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1736021217428017340

and these leakers turn out to be a joke now as well as MorresLawIsDead.

Intel Meteor Lake to Feature 50% Increase in Efficiency, 2X Faster iGPU

Intel's upcoming Meteor Lake processor family is supposedly looking good with the new performance/efficiency targets. According to the @OneRaichu Twitter account, we have a potential performance estimate for the upcoming SKUs. As the latest information notes, Intel's 14th-generation Meteor Lake...

www.techpowerup.com

The P cores are more complex and require more r&d for significant upgrades. The E's are simpler and have more "low hanging fruit" available for easier upgrades.

Bringing the tiled architecture and Intel 4 to market in one step was a big enough challenge for Intel. A redesign of the P core might have delayed MTL another year making it irrelevant as that is when we'll see ARL.

Intel is doing what it can. Is it enough? Maybe, maybe not. Only time will tell. If you sit back and think about where Intel is their decisions to make sense. It's a tough business and they don't have the luxury of armchair quarterbacking after the fact.

The point is you have to be realistic regarding the engineering and production abilities of AMD and Intel.

dullard · Dec 18, 2023

João Bortolace said:
apparently the sample for thermal testing had two CPU dies... interesting

View attachment 90639

I'd like to know more about this. Intel had an extra die (split CPU into two) in their Meteor Lake press materials. But no reviewer that I saw described why. For example: see this Intel image from here https://www.intel.com/content/www/u...e-core-ultra-5th-gen-xeon-news.html#gs.1rqe14

igor_kavinski said:
Uh WHAT???

Why isn't Intel mentioning this in their MTL launch slides?

See above, the CPU die split has been in the slides, but not described. A way to increase yield on a new process?

Khato · Dec 18, 2023

dullard said:
I'd like to know more about this. Intel had an extra die (split CPU into two) in their Meteor Lake press materials. But no reviewer that I saw described why. For example: see this Intel image from here https://www.intel.com/content/www/u...e-core-ultra-5th-gen-xeon-news.html#gs.1rqe14

View attachment 90645

See above, the CPU die split has been in the slides, but not described. A way to increase yield on a new process?

The CPU die isn't split in two. That's just a 2+8 part which uses the same IO and base die as the 6+8 part. They can't leave a large empty block which is unused due to the smaller CPU die so a piece of dummy silicon is used.

igor_kavinski · Dec 18, 2023

Key technologies in Meteor Lake: https://community.intel.com/t5/Blog...nologies-to-New-Intel-Core-Ultra/post/1553289

Datapath and Register File Circuit Technologies in Neural Processing Unit

Digital Linear Voltage Regulators Powering Compute Cores

Side-Channel Resistant AES Technology for EnDebug Remote Debug Feature

Progress Toward Quantum Resistance in Intel Core Ultra

Redesign of VT-d Infrastructure in Intel Core Ultra Provides Highly Scalable Solution for Modern XPUs

EnDebug looks ripe for exploitation by hackers.

igor_kavinski · Dec 18, 2023

Tigerick said:
View attachment 90626

Can anyone here read Mandarin? What does it say before GHz there?

My assumptions:

Base speed of Level 1 P-cores (two in number): 2.5 GHz
Base speed of Level 2 P-cores (four in number): 2.3 GHz
Maximum Turbo boost speed of any P-core: 5.1 GHz
All-core speed of Level 1 P-cores (two in number): 4.8 GHz
All-core speed of Level 2 P-cores (four in number): 4.5 GHz
Base speed of E-cores: 1.8 GHz
Maximum Turbo boost speed of E-core: 3.8 GHz
All-core speed of E-cores: 3.3 GHz

It seems that Intel is unable to hit 4.8 GHz all-core frequency on the P-core cluster, either due to Intel 4 process immaturity or not enough available power.

Saylick · Dec 18, 2023

igor_kavinski said:
View attachment 90663
Can anyone here read Mandarin? What does it say before GHz there?

My assumptions:

Base speed of Level 1 P-cores (two in number): 2.5 GHz
Base speed of Level 2 P-cores (four in number): 2.3 GHz
Maximum Turbo boost speed of any P-core: 5.1 GHz
All-core speed of Level 1 P-cores (two in number): 4.8 GHz
All-core speed of Level 2 P-cores (four in number): 4.5 GHz
Base speed of E-cores: 1.8 GHz
Maximum Turbo boost speed of E-core: 3.8 GHz
All-core speed of E-cores: 3.3 GHz

It seems that Intel is unable to hit 4.8 GHz all-core frequency on the P-core cluster, either due to Intel 4 process immaturity or not enough available power.

Google Translate says:

FlameTail · Dec 18, 2023

Saylick said:
Google Translate says:
View attachment 90664

Ah yes. "Nuclear Display".

igor_kavinski · Dec 18, 2023

I just thought of another reason why Meteor Lake didn't make it to desktop. It's possible that Intel found out in the later stages that pushing 125W to 240W through the MTL package causes it to warp or distintegrate. So it probably can't tolerate long term high temperatures above a certain wattage.

Tigerick · Dec 18, 2023

igor_kavinski said:
View attachment 90663
Can anyone here read Mandarin? What does it say before GHz there?

My assumptions:

Base speed of Level 1 P-cores (two in number): 2.5 GHz
Base speed of Level 2 P-cores (four in number): 2.3 GHz
Maximum Turbo boost speed of any P-core: 5.1 GHz
All-core speed of Level 1 P-cores (two in number): 4.8 GHz
All-core speed of Level 2 P-cores (four in number): 4.5 GHz
Base speed of E-cores: 1.8 GHz
Maximum Turbo boost speed of E-core: 3.8 GHz
All-core speed of E-cores: 3.3 GHz

It seems that Intel is unable to hit 4.8 GHz all-core frequency on the P-core cluster, either due to Intel 4 process immaturity or not enough available power.

That's correct. Ultra 9 has much higher clock than we expected..

dullard · Dec 18, 2023

Khato said:
The CPU die isn't split in two. That's just a 2+8 part which uses the same IO and base die as the 6+8 part. They can't leave a large empty block which is unused due to the smaller CPU die so a piece of dummy silicon is used.

Thanks, that makes sense.

Mopetar · Dec 18, 2023

leoneazzurro said:
These two games are so light that the test is practically always CPU bound, so for testing the GPU these are not the best examples.

They're probably what a lot of people will be using the laptop to play, so they're honestly pretty relevant.

I'd have thrown in some other popular titles like Counter Strike or Rocket League just to have a better mix than two MOBAs, but I don't think either of those are as popular in Asian markets so I can see why they were excluded.

Tigerick · Dec 18, 2023

中正评测：华硕灵耀14，ULTRA7-155H轻薄本_哔哩哔哩_bilibili

中正评测：华硕灵耀14，ULTRA7-155H轻薄本, 视频播放量 25781、弹幕量 918、点赞数 1859、投硬币枚数 434、收藏人数 118、转发人数 70, 视频作者中正评测, 作者简介私信不看不回，抱歉。自洽自饭，不接商业合作。，相关视频：【SPT】华硕灵耀 14 2024首发评测：全新酷睿Ultra 7 155H，让轻薄本回归本质～，【游戏性能】酷睿Ultra7 VS ROG掌机｜华硕灵耀14游戏实测（低功耗），连笔吧评测室都看不惯中正了？猪王怒怼网友！，精致做工+高刷好屏，华硕灵耀14 2023...

www.bilibili.com

Here's the review of retail version of ZenBook 14 OLED in China, seems like retail version is having lower thermal tolerated version as you can see from picture below:-

Gaming performance is more or less similar to 780M...

igor_kavinski · Dec 18, 2023

This is Core Ultra v0.9

It will take them a year or two to solve the thermal tolerance issues and get reliably high boost speeds like Raptor Lake.

Mopetar · Dec 18, 2023

The high boost speeds probably aren't all the meaningful. I'd be curious to see battery life figures if someone cut the clocks by 200-300 MHz and dropped the voltage by a bit. I think the battery life gains would be worth a lot more than whatever imperceptible performance bump the extra boost gives.

leoneazzurro · Dec 18, 2023

Mopetar said:
They're probably what a lot of people will be using the laptop to play, so they're honestly pretty relevant.

I'd have thrown in some other popular titles like Counter Strike or Rocket League just to have a better mix than two MOBAs, but I don't think either of those are as popular in Asian markets so I can see why they were excluded.

And I said that as a review of the capabilities of a laptop they are OK, just not the best examples for stressing a iGPU?.
Maybe reading the post and trying to understand it?

igor_kavinski · Dec 18, 2023

Intel® Core™ i7-1185G7 Processor (12M Cache, up to 4.80 GHz, with IPU) Product Specifications

Intel® Core™ i7-1185G7 Processor (12M Cache, up to 4.80 GHz, with IPU) quick reference guide including specifications, features, pricing, compatibility, design documentation, ordering codes, spec codes and more.

ark.intel.com

Intel® Core™ i7-1195G7 Processor (12M Cache, up to 5.00 GHz) - Product Specifications | Intel

Intel® Core™ i7-1195G7 Processor (12M Cache, up to 5.00 GHz) quick reference with specifications, features, and technologies.

www.intel.com

I think there is a possibility of Intel releasing Core Ultra 9 195H about six months later.

Hulk · Dec 18, 2023

I'm confused. Has Meteor Lake been released or not? How come we're not seeing actual reviews from Anandtech or Tom's?
Why is so much data still not revealed?

cebri1 · Dec 18, 2023

Hulk said:
I'm confused. Has Meteor Lake been released or not? How come we're not seeing actual reviews from Anandtech or Tom's?
Why is so much data still not revealed?

Only 3-4 models have been released & most major review websites have not recieved a laptop. OEMs are probably waiting for CES to unveil their models.

Saylick · Dec 18, 2023

Hulk said:
I'm confused. Has Meteor Lake been released or not? How come we're not seeing actual reviews from Anandtech or Tom's?
Why is so much data still not revealed?

From a PR perspective (aka if you ask Intel), Meterlake has launched (to achieve Pat's claim of MTL before the 2024).

But it's more or less a paper launch at this point. Like others have said, the bulk of the models and thus reviews will come out after CES.

Khato · Dec 18, 2023

Hulk said:
I'm confused. Has Meteor Lake been released or not? How come we're not seeing actual reviews from Anandtech or Tom's?
Why is so much data still not revealed?

I'll be quite amused that there's an "Opinion" piece on Tom's Guide that includes some benchmarks and battery life rather than a proper review on Tom's Hardware - https://www.tomsguide.com/opinion/m...-are-on-sale-now-but-read-this-before-you-buy

But regardless of the apparent choice to provide pre-release review samples to 'lifestyle' tech outlets rather than the more traditional tech outlets for the most part, that doesn't change the fact that Meteor Lake is released. It's available for consumer purchase. Models are limited apparently to an 'early enablement program' that was mentioned in one of the video reviews in Chinese I believe? But that doesn't change the fact that it's available... even if it may well be another month or so before all the kinks are ironed out.

In my opinion it would have been better to wait a bit longer to get everything in place before launch. But I still far prefer the route Intel took with MTL to AMD's mobile paper launches.

dullard · Dec 18, 2023

Hulk said:
I'm confused. Has Meteor Lake been released or not? How come we're not seeing actual reviews from Anandtech or Tom's?
Why is so much data still not revealed?

Desktops can be reviewed on the day the chip is released. Laptops need to be custom made and then optimized for the chip if there are any significant differences with things like heat dissipation or energy usage. That all takes time. Seems like this time around, Intel launched the chip to meet the Q4 2023 promise, but didn't give laptop manufacturers much time with final silicon. Plus, there is talk in this thread in the last few pages about microcode that wasn't ready. I agree with the others: expect to see real laptops with real reviews around CES next month.

I'll let you and the others debate if the date Intel ships the chip is the launch date, or if the launch is the date the laptop manufacturers have significant number of models for sale.

Gavin Bonshor at Anandtech specifically stated that they were not given a free sample yet. So no review yet.

Here are some reviews: https://videocardz.com/169099/intel-core-ultra-100h-review-roundup Notice a pattern: all 155H chips.

Glo. · Dec 18, 2023

FlameTail said:
Ah yes. "Nuclear Display".

Maybe thats because its Deuterium based?

Just like any OLED display?

igor_kavinski · Dec 18, 2023

dullard said:
Here are some reviews: https://videocardz.com/169099/intel-core-ultra-100h-review-roundup Notice a pattern: all 155H chips.

The HardwareLuxx.de one has some nice benchmarks.

Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

Senior member

Attachments

Platinum Member

Diamond Member

Diamond Member

Elite Member

Golden Member

Lifer

Lifer

Diamond Member

Platinum Member

Lifer

Senior member

Elite Member

Diamond Member

Senior member

Lifer

Diamond Member

Senior member

Lifer

Diamond Member

Member

Diamond Member

Golden Member

Elite Member

Diamond Member

Lifer