Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

Tigerick · Aug 22, 2022

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.

Comparison of upcoming Intel's U-series CPU: Core Ultra 100U, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

Model	Code-Name	Date	TDP	Node	Tiles	Main Tile	CPU	LP E-Core	LLC	GPU	Xe-cores
Core Ultra 100U	Meteor Lake	Q4 2023	15 - 57 W	Intel 4 + N5 + N6	4	tCPU	2P + 8E	2	12 MB	Intel Graphics	4
?	Lunar Lake	Q4 2024	17 - 30 W	N3B + N6	2	CPU + GPU & IMC	4P + 4E	0	8 MB	Arc	8
?	Panther Lake	Q1 2026 ?	?	Intel 18A + N3E	3	CPU + MC	4P + 8E	4	?	Arc	12

Comparison of die size of Each Tile of Meteor Lake, Arrow Lake, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

	Meteor Lake	Arrow Lake (20A)	Arrow Lake (N3B)	Arrow Lake Refresh (N3B)	Lunar Lake	Panther Lake
Platform	Mobile H/U Only	Desktop Only	Desktop & Mobile H&HX	Desktop Only	Mobile U Only	Mobile H
Process Node	Intel 4	Intel 20A	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	Intel 18A
Date	Q4 2023	Q1 2025 ?	Desktop-Q4-2024 H&HX-Q1-2025	Q4 2025 ?	Q4 2024	Q1 2026 ?
Full Die	6P + 8P	6P + 8E ?	8P + 16E	8P + 32E	4P + 4E	4P + 8E
LLC	24 MB	24 MB ?	36 MB ?	?	8 MB	?
tCPU	66.48
tGPU	44.45
SoC	96.77
IOE	44.45
Total	252.15

Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake

As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)

Tigerick · Jan 11, 2024

SiliconFly said:
It also clearly says LNL is Intel Next. What is next after 20A for Intel if not 18A? And also LNL is not on Intel node anymore, it's clearly N3B alone. Thats one contradiction.

Intel Next is not yet announced process by Intel. 18A has been announced with 20A, Intel will state 18A if LNL is using 18A. So simple...

SiliconFly said:
Thats why this discussion.

Please check my question and compare Raptor Lake U, why does Intel bump the TDP and why does Intel use 4 Xe graphics since it is so power efficiency...

coercitiv · Jan 11, 2024

SiliconFly said:
Perhaps you should first go thru the thread for the bigger picture before jumping into any conclusion.

The thread is mostly people accusing each-other of being stubborn after reading the little info we have in their own way.

SiliconFly said:
It clearly says LNL is Intel Next?

It does not, it's our interpretation of the info on that slide. The Hot Chips slide can be read two ways depending on what we assume about the people who made the slide. There's a non-zero chance they favored (Intel) branding over symmetry, and put the Intel Next node in front. Also if we assume LNL is on "Intel Next"... then the "Beyond" chips are to be made on TSMC at least partially, which does not fit with the leadership agenda Intel is pushing.

Personally I lent my ear to @Dayman1225 and favor the LNL on N3B and ARL on 20A ~~18A~~ AND N3B. I'm not 100% convinced, but it does make more sense to me after all things are considered (slides, leaks and speculation).

cebri1 · Jan 11, 2024

https://x.com/aschilling/status/1745493915015238118?s=20

FlameTail · Jan 11, 2024

FlameTail said:
View attachment 91720
What is this....

And why is he defending it...

SiliconFly · Jan 11, 2024

coercitiv said:
Personally I lent my ear to @Dayman1225 and favor the LNL on N3B and ARL on 18A AND N3B. I'm not 100% convinced, but it does make more sense to me after all things are considered (slides, leaks and speculation).

Thats exactly my conclusion as well. LNL on N3B exclusively. And ARL on 20A for sure AND Possibly N3B (not 100% certain of ARL on N3B).

It is just that when people skip sections, they lose context and hence the confusion. Thats the reason I mentioned earlier it's important to go thru the thread first.

Well, I think it's time to let go off this topic. More interesting things are already in.

Hitman928 · Jan 11, 2024

cebri1 said:
https://x.com/aschilling/status/1745493915015238118?s=20

Seems to be some pretty large latency between cores on the same die and a significant increase from ADL/RPL.

Hitman928 · Jan 11, 2024

Hitman928 said:
Seems to be some pretty large latency between cores on the same die and a significant increase from ADL/RPL.

Followed the twitter link and here is the original article: https://www.hardwareluxx.de/index.p...ore-ultra-7-155h-im-asus-zenbook-14-oled.html

And google translated to English: https://www-hardwareluxx-de.transla...l=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp

From what I gather, the article is based upon the opportunity they had to get some hands on time with a few MTL laptops at CES. The main one they seem to have gotten time with was the Asus Zenbook but the laptop seems to be having some issues as the performance is much worse than it should be. Someone in the comments said they bought the laptop but had to return it due to it running hot and the fans constantly being annoyingly loud. Seems like it still has some issues. Others have reported the MSI model at CES having some major issues as well. I'm not in the market for a new laptop right now but if I were, I would probably hold off on a MTL model purchase until they get the kinks worked out.

coercitiv · Jan 11, 2024

FlameTail said:
And why is he defending it...

I have a lot of respect for Ian Cutress, but he dropped the ball on this one. The marketing game is all about perception (and he knows it better than most). Apart from that, the elitist reaction was uncalled for.

Intel is recommending only Ultra 9 for casual gaming on-the-go, so I guess they're not recommending the brand new MSI Claw with Ultra 7.

H433x0n · Jan 11, 2024

DrMrLordX said:
I can see that, but again . . . IF that's true, Intel would have (or should have) leveraged Intel 4 for a number of products instead of just Meteor Lake. Things they didn't release on Intel 4 (announced or otherwise):

You're assuming that Intel's bottleneck is their fabs, to me it's really clear that their bottleneck is their design team.

DrMrLordX said:
Ponte Vecchio

Total mess of a product. I've got no clue what happened with it.

DrMrLordX said:
Loihi 2 (might have gone to some beta testers but that's it)

Not a real product.

DrMrLordX said:
Any desktop CPU

It's clear that MTL would've never outperformed RPL on desktop. It's just not going to work as a desktop product.

DrMrLordX said:
Any server CPU

Intel didn't even release an Intel 4 variant of their Ridge CPUs. Instead they farmed out the node to Ericcson for their RAN SoC. Which strikes me as really odd.

Both GNR & SRF are going to be on Intel 3, which is basically Intel 4 with different cell and VT variants.

mikk · Jan 11, 2024

coercitiv said:
Personally I lent my ear to @Dayman1225 and favor the LNL on N3B and ARL on 18A AND N3B. I'm not 100% convinced, but it does make more sense to me after all things are considered (slides, leaks and speculation).

You mean 20A which Intel confirmed. ARL is not using 18A, PTL will be the first 18A client chip.

Hitman928 said:
Followed the twitter link and here is the original article: https://www.hardwareluxx.de/index.p...ore-ultra-7-155h-im-asus-zenbook-14-oled.html

And google translated to English: https://www-hardwareluxx-de.transla...l=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp

From what I gather, the article is based upon the opportunity they had to get some hands on time with a few MTL laptops at CES. The main one they seem to have gotten time with was the Asus Zenbook but the laptop seems to be having some issues as the performance is much worse than it should be. Someone in the comments said they bought the laptop but had to return it due to it running hot and the fans constantly being annoyingly loud. Seems like it still has some issues. Others have reported the MSI model at CES having some major issues as well. I'm not in the market for a new laptop right now but if I were, I would probably hold off on a MTL model purchase until they get the kinks worked out.

His 28W score is broken, way too low. Apparently windows update messed up the power settings on the Asus. Testing MTL is a hard task by the looks of it.

Abwx · Jan 11, 2024

mikk said:
His 28W score is broken, way too low. Apparently windows update messed up the power settings on the Asus. Testing MTL is a hard task by the looks of it.

NBC also got access to the hardware, they have a comparable score at 64/55W, although for their comparison they picked a 7840HS Pro that is apparently heavily throttled, seems that they wanted to please Intel as if it was a paid article...

Intel Core Ultra 7 165H first benchmarks analysis: Meteor Lake beats Raptor Lake under sustained load

Intel gave the press some time to benchmark an MSI Engineering Sample laptop at CES. This device contained the Intel Core Ultra 7 165H, marking the first time we were able to benchmark this new processor.

www.notebookcheck.net

coercitiv · Jan 11, 2024

mikk said:
You mean 20A which Intel confirmed.

Yup.

Geddagod · Jan 11, 2024

SiliconFly said:
What about this Intel slide? What is unclear on this for you?

Like I said, thats the whole point of this entire discussion. I don't think we should cherry pick. We've considered all the known leaks & sources and have been trying to eliminate all improbabilities. And trying to come to a solid conclusion. Perhaps you should first go thru the thread for the bigger picture before jumping into any conclusion.

This slide is referencing the entire CPU, not just the compute tiles. The other slide is only mentioning the CPU tiles, as it lists out "external N3" under MTL & ARL, and if it was mentioning the entire CPU, it would list out other tiles.
Notice how this slide only says "external" not "external n3/n5/n7" or anything of that sort.

Geddagod · Jan 11, 2024

SiliconFly said:
It also clearly says LNL is Intel Next. What is next after 20A for Intel if not 18A? And also LNL is not on Intel node anymore, it's clearly N3B alone. Thats one contradiction.

No it's not lol. It says LNL & Beyond (what we now know as PTL) and then "External" and "Intel 18A". Let's match this up. What came first from the top of the slide? LNL. What came first on the node side? "External". What came 2nd on the CPU side? "Beyond". What came 2nd on the node side? "18A".
No contradiction.

Geddagod · Jan 11, 2024

SiliconFly said:
Well, I think it's time to let go off this topic. More interesting things are already in.

Didn't see this, ma fault :/

Geddagod · Jan 11, 2024

H433x0n said:
You're assuming that Intel's bottleneck is their fabs, to me it's really clear that their bottleneck is their design team.

Why not both

mikk said:
His 28W score is broken, way too low. Apparently windows update messed up the power settings on the Asus. Testing MTL is a hard task by the looks of it.

What a mess of a launch

Saylick · Jan 12, 2024

Chips and Cheese has a MTL article out, mostly covering cache latency, cache bandwidth, and core-to-core latencies. Enjoy!

Previewing Meteor Lake at CES

Intel has been using a hybrid core strategy for years in a bid to leverage their bigger engineering budget to corner AMD. Specifically, P-Cores focus on maximizing per-thread performance. E-Cores a…

chipsandcheese.com

SiliconFly · Jan 13, 2024

https://www.hardwaretimes.com/intel...n-the-13th-gen-core-13700h-in-5-6-benchmarks/

Intel Core 7 165H managed to beat Ryzen 7840HS is 5/6 tests

TESKATLIPOKA · Jan 13, 2024

SiliconFly said:
https://www.hardwaretimes.com/intel...n-the-13th-gen-core-13700h-in-5-6-benchmarks/

Intel Core 7 165H managed to beat Ryzen 7840HS is 5/6 tests

LMAO.
The title of that article is Intel Core Ultra 7 165H Meteor Lake Slower than the 13th Gen Core-13700H in 5/6 Benchmarks
and the one who wrote that article wasn't really impressed with MTL. ->

There isn’t much to say except, “What the hell happened to Meteor Lake.” This is no better than Ice Lake, minus the delays.

There are no 6 different tests, everything is just CB(R15, R20, R23) in nT and 1T.
BTW, 165H won in 4 not 5 of them against 7840HS. Next time double check what you write please.
And of course you didn't mention that power limit was >50W, so It's kinda expected that MTL will win thanks to more cores having higher raw power.

P.S. and those scores are from notebookcheck.

edit: that PRO 7840HS had particularly bad results, the same chip in a different laptop produced better results despite almost the same power limit. Throttling?

Also Ultra 7 165H had inconsistent performance. It was a lot faster in R15, but barely so in the rest and in R23 1T It was 5% slower than 155H.

SiliconFly · Jan 13, 2024

TESKATLIPOKA said:
LMAO.
The title of that article is Intel Core Ultra 7 165H Meteor Lake Slower than the 13th Gen Core-13700H in 5/6 Benchmarks
and the one who wrote that article wasn't really impressed with MTL. ->

There are no 6 different tests, everything is just CB(R15, R20, R23) in nT and 1T.
BTW, 165H won in 4 not 5 of them against 7840HS. Next time double check what you write please.
And of course you didn't mention that power limit was >50W, so It's kinda expected that MTL will win thanks to more cores having higher raw power.

P.S. and those scores are from notebookcheck.

edit: that PRO 7840HS had particularly bad results, the same chip in a different laptop produced better results despite almost the same power limit. Throttling?
View attachment 91835

Also Ultra 7 165H had inconsistent performance. It was a lot faster in R15, but barely so in the rest and in R23 1T It was 5% slower than 155H.

Well, it's still interesting.

TESKATLIPOKA · Jan 13, 2024

SiliconFly said:
Well, it's still ~~interesting~~ hilarious.

Fixed It for you.

mikk · Jan 13, 2024

MTL E core vs LP-E vs Phoenix 4k playback power consumption:

jpiniero · Jan 13, 2024

Saw that Lenovo has a Yoga with Meteor Lake U available for sale. It's also two grand...

JasonLD · Jan 13, 2024

jpiniero said:
Saw that Lenovo has a Yoga with Meteor Lake U available for sale. It's also two grand...

Yoga Slim starts at little over a grand with Meteor Lake. Unless you are talking about Yoga Book.

Khato · Jan 13, 2024

Nice to see that Intel did follow through with the instrumented laptop power comparison as they said they would in the HotHardware day-before first look. Much better data-point on SoC power draw than what battery life can provide.

Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

Senior member

Attachments

Senior member

Diamond Member

Member

Platinum Member

Golden Member

Diamond Member

Diamond Member

Diamond Member

Senior member

Diamond Member

Lifer

Diamond Member

Golden Member

Golden Member

Golden Member

Golden Member

Diamond Member

Golden Member

Platinum Member

Golden Member

Platinum Member

Diamond Member

Lifer

Senior member

Golden Member