What's with some people and their insecurities of others having electric vehicles?

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K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
46,422
33,922
136
The biggest issue for the ICE and BEV would be the 12V lead acid battery.

That some companies are still putting 12V lead batteries in EVs is nuts. There is also usually little to no warning that these batteries are about to die after 3-5 years of use and people end up stuck. Some people are swapping them out for LiFePO4s knowing the issue which is what I'm going to do this year since my own is about to hit the 5 year mark in the summer.
 

AdamK47

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
15,273
2,885
126
TSLA down 11% today. Their forward guidance is not good at all. 2024 is going to be a much slower year compared to 2023. They will be cutting production to meet reduced demand. Certainty not what investor like to hear.
 

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
14,721
10,157
136
There's tons of stories like this where battery replacements end up being a ridiculous price. The issue is that the companies and most garages are not willing to actually work on them so they just replace the whole thing or charge a ridiculous price to work on it. It's madness. Often times it's not even the battery cells themselves that are the issue it's just something related to the battery pack.

Here's a good example of a garage that was willing to work on one:


Such garages are very rare though.
Yeah, need more right to repair laws. Most battery fixes should be easier and cheaper than engine/transmission rebuilds. But if there are no parts you're screwed.

I watched a video on pulling a bolt battery, pretty straightforward.
 

manly

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
11,235
2,300
136
Not really, passenger vehicles are a component but a very small one compared to other CO2 sources, and stretching out the climate effects from them doesn't change the formula much. Factor in the relative issues with hybrid compared to pure EV (twice the complications under the hood, same maintenance schedule as ICE), and the loss of battery tech advancement from pressure from EV consumers, and hybrids should be considered a stepping stone.
I don't recall the figure off the top of my head, and you're right there are other aspects of emissions that are larger, but I wouldn't call passenger autos a "very small" component of global warming*. @repoman0 was stating the obvious that the auto industry could have been a part of the solution much earlier, but Detroit has been too addicted to light trucks profits to care.

I remember an NBC News (or Dateline, don't laugh) segment about two decades ago where the story was that Ford could easily build a fuel-efficient Explorer if they really wanted to. It didn't require any breakthrough technologies beyond what was already known at the time.

Besides GHG emissions, there are other environmental and geopolitical reasons to gradually sunset our reliance on big oil.

* https://ourworldindata.org/co2-emissions-from-transport


TSLA down 11% today. Their forward guidance is not good at all. 2024 is going to be a much slower year compared to 2023. They will be cutting production to meet reduced demand. Certainty not what investor like to hear.
Even perma bull Dan Ives slammed them for the CON call. Nobody believes an unrevealed "Tesla Model 2" is ready for production in calendar year 2025. At best, they might offer a super cut down version of the Model 3, but that only reduces margins even further.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
14,341
12,482
146
I don't recall the figure off the top of my head, and you're right there are other aspects of emissions that are larger, but I wouldn't call passenger autos a "very small" component of global warming*. @repoman0 was stating the obvious that the auto industry could have been a part of the solution much earlier, but Detroit has been too addicted to light trucks profits to care.

I remember an NBC News (or Dateline, don't laugh) segment about two decades ago where the story was that Ford could easily build a fuel-efficient Explorer if they really wanted to. It didn't require any breakthrough technologies beyond what was already known at the time.

Besides GHG emissions, there are other environmental and geopolitical reasons to gradually sunset our reliance on big oil.

* https://ourworldindata.org/co2-emissions-from-transport



Even perma bull Dan Ives slammed them for the CON call. Nobody believes an unrevealed "Tesla Model 2" is ready for production in calendar year 2025. At best, they might offer a super cut down version of the Model 3, but that only reduces margins even further.
In the US, passenger vehicles represent about 16% of all emissions.

Average passenger vehicles is around 24-35 depending on where you look, and city or highway, so let's make the math easy with 30. A transition of the fleet world represent around a 40% increase over that based on sources I could find, resulting in a reduction to what, like 10%? Not a small amount but not major when weighed against the frankly Herculean task of migrating consumer fleets.

Now tell me you're going to do that to ev's backed by renewables, and you're taking that 16% to <1%... Now we're talking.
 

Exterous

Super Moderator
Jun 20, 2006
20,402
3,468
126
There is a video showing that two different dealerships wanted 60 grand. I will search for it later. Also, all dealerships are mostly independent (except Teslas showrooms).

I don't like them any more than you do and prefer independent mechanics or even a good shade tree to do my own work.

If we're basing views on an entire type of vehicle based on 2 dealerships being shitheads I don't know if there is a single vehicle sold in the US or Canada you'd be ok with

There's tons of stories like this where battery replacements end up being a ridiculous price. The issue is that the companies and most garages are not willing to actually work on them so they just replace the whole thing or charge a ridiculous price to work on it. It's madness. Often times it's not even the battery cells themselves that are the issue it's just something related to the battery pack.

Here's a good example of a garage that was willing to work on one:


Such garages are very rare though.
Fortunately economies of scale and a willingness to learn new things to get revenue is a thing businesses do. 11 years ago a new battery for my hybrid cost $10k. It got down to $1300 for a non-OEM and $2k for an OEM. It's since climbed to about $2000 for non-OEM since my car is over 11 years old and its a single model and generation line part so parts are getting a little harder to find. (FWIW I still have 94% of my original capacity in a cold climate)

Keep in mind that a lot of the new EVs are built on the same battery platforms. Kia and Hyundai are using the same e-gmp platform and GM is using the ultium platform. So, unlike my hybrid which still managed to decrease in cost by 80%, you just need to learn one platform to get coverage for a large range of vehicles
 
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nakedfrog

No Lifer
Apr 3, 2001
58,315
12,541
136
I have Ford Ranger whose corrosion has rendered a battery terminal screw unturnable.

The front latch to lift hood also got stuck, which I had to release "the manual way" by fanagling a screwdriver.

There's also an ErictheCarGuy repair video on a Taurus, which one part required a torch and I recall another Youtube comment seconding the need to use a torch to disassemble the part.

Knowing you, you wouldn't accept any the statements above as evidence anyway, because you've already predetermined everything I say to be false.

And the reason I have a ranger was that I intended to install a new valve cover gasket because the old one "failed" and its a known flaw.

Not every act of inference is a "conspiracy". Actually, company dictating shaving a cent or two by using cheaper parts is a common business practice. I mean, this is the same manufacturer who skimped on spark plug threads as well, leading to recalls on that.
Battery terminals are prone to corrosion in general, there are measures you can take to help prevent it, but it's a thing that happens, and is not specific to Ford. It's also not uncommon for a bolt that hasn't been turned in years, and has been exposed to many cycles of heating and cooling, to be stuck and need a torch to be freed. Not a Ford-specific thing. Valve cover gaskets DO in fact fail and need to be replaced. Not a Ford specific thing. I've replaced valve cover gaskets on a number of vehicles. One of my hobbies used to be buying a cheap older car, playing with it for a while, then swapping it out for a different cheap older car, I've owned 25+ cars.
 
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brianmanahan

Lifer
Sep 2, 2006
24,276
5,702
136
My conservative dad doesn't have a problem with LED bulbs but he is irrationally opposed to solar. Which is all the more aggravating because his summertime electric bills are about $500-600 in AZ and over half of his neighbors have arrays.

i freakin hate the LED bulbs, just because they blind me every time they're behind me (and half the time when they're coming at me)

dunno if it's because my car is low to the ground or if those things are just painfully bright
 
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nakedfrog

No Lifer
Apr 3, 2001
58,315
12,541
136
i freakin hate the LED bulbs, just because they blind me every time they're behind me (and half the time when they're coming at me)

dunno if it's because my car is low to the ground or if those things are just painfully bright
I think LED bulbs for the house were under discussion here.
But I do feel like I've had more issues with this in the past 4 years in my Miata compared to the previous 5 years.

Could also be us getting older 😁
 

AdamK47

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
15,273
2,885
126
i freakin hate the LED bulbs, just because they blind me every time they're behind me (and half the time when they're coming at me)

dunno if it's because my car is low to the ground or if those things are just painfully bright
Not strictly LEDs. GM got in trouble for having headlights that were too bright. They were forced to do a recall.


Auto manufacturers do it because bright headlights are a selling point.
 

Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
67,656
12,253
126
www.anyf.ca
i freakin hate the LED bulbs, just because they blind me every time they're behind me (and half the time when they're coming at me)

dunno if it's because my car is low to the ground or if those things are just painfully bright

Those blue HID ones are brutal too. IMO blue should be illegal on cars. I always thought it was, but guess it's not unless it's flashing. The thing is with these HID bulbs they actually DO flash since the arc will "dance" with the bumps so you get arc flashed, very similar to someone welding.
 
Reactions: Charmonium

Captante

Lifer
Oct 20, 2003
30,291
10,793
136
Ever read about Kia/Hyundai? Lots of engine issues. Subaru put 3 engines in my Forester, first due to oil burn, next two because their shitty rebuilds blew rod bearings in 500 miles. Lots of failed transmissions too.

Don't forget the CHRONIC blown head-gasket issues especially in the 2.5L 4's .... and scoobys have TWO of them.

And having owned a Hyundai, I wouldn't even consider buying another one. (and that's BEFORE you take into account the "USB drive starting the car without the FOB" issues due to the cheap bastages skipping an engine immobilizer!)

My Elantra was LOADED with shiny bells and whistles but the suspension-balance and emergency handling was atrocious and the "stability" (lol) control downright dangerous ..... I just don't trust their design/engineering.


EDIT: If we're being fair I wouldn't touch another Volvo with a 10-foot pole either, although for different reasons. (and I've owned four in the past, the most recent being a 1995 850 Turbo)
 
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Reactions: Zorba

Captante

Lifer
Oct 20, 2003
30,291
10,793
136
Hype is wearing off...


Hmmmm..... I could swear I'd been saying exactly this all along.

There are still FIRST YEAR Prius's out there running their ORIGINAL batteries (albeit w/reduced range) and replacing one, while not cheap will not require financing all its own at roughly 2 grand.

Not only that most Toyota's (full ICE or hybrid) sans road/crash-damage don't even "rattle" after 100k on the ODO, nevermind from the moment they leave the factory.

I'm pretty sure that at some point I'll own a full EV but I'm equally sure it won't be a Tesla unless they up their quality control AND dump the "always on" internet connection. (I won't let Windows update itself, I'm sure as frack not letting my cars OS do it!)
 
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MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
21,600
19,985
136
An opinion piece written by an economist with roots leading back to the Bush administration is exactly what I would call hype.
Yeah pretty much. EVS are certainly the future. Obviously a lot of pieces have to finish falling into place but it's pretty clear where we're headed to. That's not a fad. It's just going to take some time.
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
37,713
8,234
136
I blame Prius owners who hypermile in the left lane. Ruined it for everybody. Oh, and BMW-driving asshats who became Tesla-driving asshats. New rides, same manners. I look forward to the day when electric is all there is, what a quiet world it will be.

This post brought to you by the letters A, W, E, S, O, M, & E and the number 1337.
I am all for EV, and figure my next car will be. However, I want to point out (as a bicyclist and roller skater, pedestrian too) that quiet cars present an increased threat to travelers who are not in an enclosed vehicle. So, if you are driving an EV, you should realize this.
 
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WilliamM2

Platinum Member
Jun 14, 2012
2,483
541
136
I am all for EV, and figure my next car will be. However, I want to point out (as a bicyclist and roller skater, pedestrian too) that quiet cars present an increased threat to travelers who are not in an enclosed vehicle. So, if you are driving an EV, you should realize this.

Mine won't be EV. I'd need a new panel in the house (was quoted $4600 for this in 2016!), a sub-panel in the garage, upgrade my service to 200 amp. About $10,000 at least + a charger.
I drive about 2K a year. How long before ROI on the home upgrades? Not even looking at the price the car. I don't think I'd live long enough.
 
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WilliamM2

Platinum Member
Jun 14, 2012
2,483
541
136
And heavily biased towards the fossil-fuel industry.

True. But all the auto manufacturers are cutting back on EV's right now. Toyota has cut thiers by 40%. Ford as well. there is no demand.

I had to go to the Toyota dealer last month to get some anti freeze and clamps. I thought I would take a look at a new Camry. They didn't have a single gas Camry on the lot, new or used. The salesman told me they sell before they come in. Less than 30K.

They had at least half a dozen of electric bZ4x's (not a sedan), and even more Camry hybrids. Not selling well at all, which didn't surprise me, the hybrid Corolla's were over 35K, Camry's at about $45K. No thank you.

 

waffleironhead

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2005
6,923
435
136
True. But all the auto manufacturers are cutting back on EV's right now. Toyota has cut thiers by 40%. Ford as well. there is no demand.

I had to go to the Toyota dealer last month to get some anti freeze and clamps. I thought I would take a look at a new Camry. They didn't have a single gas Camry on the lot, new or used. The salesman told me they sell before they come in. Less than 30K.

They had at least half a dozen of electric bZ4x's (not a sedan), and even more Camry hybrids. Not selling well at all, which didn't surprise me, the hybrid Corolla's were over 35K, Camry's at about $45K. No thank you.

The price differential between a base corolla and a base corolla hybrid is only $1500.
Camry and camry hybrid is only $2000. Its not that big of an extra cost. Finding a base model is the hard part though.
 
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Captante

Lifer
Oct 20, 2003
30,291
10,793
136
Don't get me wrong, I'm fine with EV's once we're ready for them ..... ICE engines need to go the way of coal-fired central heating.

Thing is that despite the fact that Connecticut is fairly high on the "EV readiness" scale compared to most US states, if you can't charge at home (or at the office) a pure EV is capable of being a REAL pain in the a$$ even here for many reasons.
 
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WilliamM2

Platinum Member
Jun 14, 2012
2,483
541
136
The price differential between a base corolla and a base corolla hybrid is only $1500.
Camry and camry hybrid is only $2000. Its not that big of an extra cost. Finding a base model is the hard part though.
Actually, the Camry is $2500 more. But you are right, they were all optioned out to the max. Can you imagine paying over $30k for a Corolla?

I'm not to keen on controlling everything with a TV screen either. My sister had a 2019 RAV. Changing the music could take your eyes off the road for 5 minutes!
 
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