Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

Tigerick · Aug 22, 2022

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.

Comparison of upcoming Intel's U-series CPU: Core Ultra 100U, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

Model	Code-Name	Date	TDP	Node	Tiles	Main Tile	CPU	LP E-Core	LLC	GPU	Xe-cores
Core Ultra 100U	Meteor Lake	Q4 2023	15 - 57 W	Intel 4 + N5 + N6	4	tCPU	2P + 8E	2	12 MB	Intel Graphics	4
?	Lunar Lake	Q4 2024	17 - 30 W	N3B + N6	2	CPU + GPU & IMC	4P + 4E	0	8 MB	Arc	8
?	Panther Lake	Q1 2026 ?	?	Intel 18A + N3E	3	CPU + MC	4P + 8E	4	?	Arc	12

Comparison of die size of Each Tile of Meteor Lake, Arrow Lake, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

	Meteor Lake	Arrow Lake (20A)	Arrow Lake (N3B)	Arrow Lake Refresh (N3B)	Lunar Lake	Panther Lake
Platform	Mobile H/U Only	Desktop Only	Desktop & Mobile H&HX	Desktop Only	Mobile U Only	Mobile H
Process Node	Intel 4	Intel 20A	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	Intel 18A
Date	Q4 2023	Q1 2025 ?	Desktop-Q4-2024 H&HX-Q1-2025	Q4 2025 ?	Q4 2024	Q1 2026 ?
Full Die	6P + 8P	6P + 8E ?	8P + 16E	8P + 32E	4P + 4E	4P + 8E
LLC	24 MB	24 MB ?	36 MB ?	?	8 MB	?
tCPU	66.48
tGPU	44.45
SoC	96.77
IOE	44.45
Total	252.15

Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake

As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)

SiliconFly · Feb 23, 2024

mikk said:
Nova Lake should have a Celestial iGPU at the very least given that Panther Lake seems to get Xe3 and comes 1 year earlier.

Xe3 on Panther Lake sounds a bit unlikely if you ask me. It's difficult for them to come out with a new gen igpu in a short span of just 12 months. Doesn't sound like Intel at all.

For example, ARL is coming out with Xe+ or Xe++ this year end. That'd be roughly 3 years since Xe launch. Not very inspiring.

FlameTail · Feb 23, 2024

Which Lake will use the 18A-P node?

SiliconFly · Feb 23, 2024

FlameTail said:
Which Lake will use the 18A-P node?

Nova Lake (2026 H2) maybe on 14A and/or 18A and/or 18A-P and/or TSMC N2. Lots of possibilities. Too soon to tell.

igor_kavinski · Feb 23, 2024

Intel Arrow Lake-S to feature Xe-LPG architecture without "Plus", Arrow Lake-H gets the Xe-LPG+ variant - VideoCardz.com

Intel Arrow Lake-S with Xe-LPG graphics without the plus Intel is gearing up to launch its Arrow Lake architecture by the end of this year. Arrow Lake will be the company’s first top-to-bottom client architecture featuring entirely new CPU and GPU architecture in years. The series following...

videocardz.com

Oh no. Desktop ARL iGPU gets shafted. AGAIN!

Oh well. Looks like Intel wants AMD to continue their desktop APU superiority.

DavidC1 · Feb 23, 2024

mikk said:
You can't simply compare Xe1 with Xe2 and Xe3 and assume nothing will change. And who says Nova Lake gets 20 Xe cores, this is just a guess from someone. Strix Halo might be irrelevant for mobile, better wait and see. If this thing costs 3k up and comes with dGPU and tiny volume who cares. Strix Point is what really matters for mobile.

Glo. said:
Strix Halo is a 256 bit part. Its a completely different beast.

20 Xe core part most likely still will be 128 bit, same as that 12 Xe core part.

Thats the first thing.

Secondly they will be different architecture - Battlemage, instead of Alchemist. The performance/core will change.

Im willing to say that Intel will catch up to AMD with perf/ALU. At least to AMD.

Were you guys paying attention to what Tigerick has been saying? My reply has been to that. He said it'll be 20 Xe cores, and mentioned something like being a big iGPU, when my retort was that 20 Xe in 2027 is not big at all. It's like being impressed with news saying "Meteorlake has 128EUs!" back in 2021, when we'd eventually find out Meteorlake performs like AMD's iGPU but a year later!

AMD will have 16 CUs in Strix point. They'll have something similar for mainstream to equal 20 Xe(~26 CUs) in 2027, if not better. History does not favor Intel iGPUs.

DavidC1 · Feb 23, 2024

SiliconFly said:
Xe3 on Panther Lake sounds a bit unlikely if you ask me. It's difficult for them to come out with a new gen igpu in a short span of just 12 months. Doesn't sound like Intel at all.

For example, ARL is coming out with Xe+ or Xe++ this year end. That'd be roughly 3 years since Xe launch. Not very inspiring.

Yes, but Lunarlake is Xe2.

Also, Pantherlake should be a year after Arrowlake, or late 2025/early 2026. That's nearly 24 month away.

DrMrLordX · Feb 23, 2024

igor_kavinski said:
Oh no. Desktop ARL iGPU gets shafted. AGAIN!

Probably not the most important part of desktop Arrow Lake. All eyes are going to be on the P cores.

igor_kavinski · Feb 23, 2024

DrMrLordX said:
All eyes are going to be on the P cores.

Which are likely to fail so a good iGPU could've provided some solace.

ondma · Feb 23, 2024

igor_kavinski said:
Intel Arrow Lake-S to feature Xe-LPG architecture without "Plus", Arrow Lake-H gets the Xe-LPG+ variant - VideoCardz.com

Intel Arrow Lake-S with Xe-LPG graphics without the plus Intel is gearing up to launch its Arrow Lake architecture by the end of this year. Arrow Lake will be the company’s first top-to-bottom client architecture featuring entirely new CPU and GPU architecture in years. The series following...

videocardz.com

Oh no. Desktop ARL iGPU gets shafted. AGAIN!

Oh well. Looks like Intel wants AMD to continue their desktop APU superiority.

Who cares on the desktop?

igor_kavinski · Feb 23, 2024

ondma said:
Who cares on the desktop?

Enemies of heat, noise, power cables sticking out and going into the discrete GPU, melting connectors etc.

FlameTail · Feb 23, 2024

igor_kavinski said:
Intel Arrow Lake-S to feature Xe-LPG architecture without "Plus", Arrow Lake-H gets the Xe-LPG+ variant - VideoCardz.com

Intel Arrow Lake-S with Xe-LPG graphics without the plus Intel is gearing up to launch its Arrow Lake architecture by the end of this year. Arrow Lake will be the company’s first top-to-bottom client architecture featuring entirely new CPU and GPU architecture in years. The series following...

videocardz.com

Oh no. Desktop ARL iGPU gets shafted. AGAIN!

Let them keep trying. Eventually, a good iGPU will be born.

Goop_reformed · Feb 24, 2024

Hitman928 said:
ARL compute tile will use 20A on some SKUs, but most of the volume will be on TSMC's N3B according to rumors + leaked document.

N3 for Arrow Lake & N3B for Lunar Lake

Intel CEO Discloses TSMC Production Details: N3 for Arrow Lake & N3B for Lunar Lake

Intel CEO Pat Gelsinger engaged with press/media representatives following the conclusion of his IFS Direct Connect 2024 keynote speech—when asked about Team Blue's ongoing relationship with TSMC, he confirmed that their manufacturing agreement has advanced from "5 nm to 3 nm." According to a...

www.techpowerup.com

ondma · Feb 24, 2024

igor_kavinski said:
Enemies of heat, noise, power cables sticking out and going into the discrete GPU, melting connectors etc.

I will give you a serious answer. For non gaming uses, pretty much any recent integrated solution is sufficient. For gaming, they are a limited low end solution. A better igpu may be of some benefit, but they would not be the determining factor if I were purchasing a new cpu. We have been hearing since the days of "Fusion is the future" how APUs are going to be the next great thing. Still waiting.

Hitman928 · Feb 24, 2024

Goop_reformed said:
N3 for Arrow Lake & N3B for Lunar Lake

Intel CEO Discloses TSMC Production Details: N3 for Arrow Lake & N3B for Lunar Lake

Intel CEO Pat Gelsinger engaged with press/media representatives following the conclusion of his IFS Direct Connect 2024 keynote speech—when asked about Team Blue's ongoing relationship with TSMC, he confirmed that their manufacturing agreement has advanced from "5 nm to 3 nm." According to a...

www.techpowerup.com

There is no N3.

FlameTail · Feb 24, 2024

Hitman928 said:
There is no N3.

There was.

It's dead now.

igor_kavinski · Feb 24, 2024

ondma said:
Still waiting.

Better than a low end card like RX 6400 or Geforce 1650: http://www.portvapes.co.uk/?id=Latest-exam-1Z0-876-Dumps&exid=threads/amd-8700g-igpu-is-pretty-good.2617243/post-41163075

AMD Radeon 780M Specs

AMD Phoenix, 2700 MHz, 768 Cores, 48 TMUs, 32 ROPs

www.techpowerup.com

APUs have come a long way and only thanks to AMD.

mikk · Feb 24, 2024

igor_kavinski said:
Better than a low end card like RX 6400 or Geforce 1650: http://www.portvapes.co.uk/?id=Latest-exam-1Z0-876-Dumps&exid=threads/amd-8700g-igpu-is-pretty-good.2617243/post-41163075

It is worse not better, check out real tests.

cebri1 · Feb 24, 2024

ondma · Feb 24, 2024

igor_kavinski said:
Better than a low end card like RX 6400 or Geforce 1650: http://www.portvapes.co.uk/?id=Latest-exam-1Z0-876-Dumps&exid=threads/amd-8700g-igpu-is-pretty-good.2617243/post-41163075

AMD Radeon 780M Specs

AMD Phoenix, 2700 MHz, 768 Cores, 48 TMUs, 32 ROPs

www.techpowerup.com

View attachment 94406

APUs have come a long way and only thanks to AMD.

But at best, nearly equal to, and in most cases, significantly slower than my ancient 1060 6GB, extrapolating from the 6500XT comparison on Techspot. In any case, I didnt mean to derail this Inte cpul thread with discussion of graphics performance of an AMD cpu, so I will end the conversation.

Glo. · Feb 24, 2024

DavidC1 said:
Were you guys paying attention to what Tigerick has been saying? My reply has been to that. He said it'll be 20 Xe cores, and mentioned something like being a big iGPU, when my retort was that 20 Xe in 2027 is not big at all. It's like being impressed with news saying "Meteorlake has 128EUs!" back in 2021, when we'd eventually find out Meteorlake performs like AMD's iGPU but a year later!

AMD will have 16 CUs in Strix point. They'll have something similar for mainstream to equal 20 Xe(~26 CUs) in 2027, if not better. History does not favor Intel iGPUs.

It is big, 20 Xe cores is 2560 ALUs.

Its the same number of ALUs as RX 6700 XT. For mainstream SOCs - it will still be apropriate.

Hitman928 · Feb 24, 2024

cebri1 said:
View attachment 94408

Seems like there’s really no advantage in going with an 185h over a 155h, outside of a very modest bump in single threaded performance.

SiliconFly · Feb 24, 2024

Hitman928 said:
Seems like there’s really no advantage in going with an 185h over a 155h, outside of a very modest bump in single threaded performance.

Very True!

Both 165H & 185H are pretty useless compared to 155H. Not worth the extra money.

TESKATLIPOKA · Feb 24, 2024

Glo. said:
It is big, 20 Xe cores is 2560 ALUs.

Its the same number of ALUs as RX 6700 XT. For mainstream SOCs - it will still be apropriate.

Number of ALUs or Xe doesn't tell you much without knowing the clockspeed.
Then you also need to feed It, that looks like the biggest problem in my opinion.

FlameTail · Feb 24, 2024

TESKATLIPOKA said:
Number of ALUs or Xe doesn't tell you much without knowing the clockspeed.
Then you also need to feed It, that looks like the biggest problem in my opinion.

Case in point: Adreno GPU in 8G3, which is a smartphone SoC, has 1792 ALUs (!), which is more than even some dGPUs I believe?

TESKATLIPOKA · Feb 24, 2024

FlameTail said:
Case in point: Adreno GPU in 8G3, which is a smartphone SoC, has 1792 ALUs (!), which is more than even some dGPUs I believe?

Please stop comparing apples to oranges.

MTL IGP with only 8 XEs is fed by 128-bit 5600-7500mbps (LP)DDR5(x). 20 XEs will need a lot more, unless clockspeed will take a drastic hit.

Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

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