Discussion NV Re-Enter ARM PC market in 2025!

Tigerick · Feb 19, 2024

Highly Confident:

When Reuter reported NV and AMD are going to launch ARM SoC for PC:

Nvidia dominates the market for artificial intelligence computing chips. Now it is coming after Intel’s longtime stronghold of personal computers. Nvidia has quietly begun designing central processing units (CPUs) that would run Microsoft’s Windows operating system and use technology from Arm Holdings, two people familiar with the matter told Reuters.

Nvidia and AMD could sell PC chips as soon as 2025

Click to expand...

I contacted my source, turned up there might have some truths there. Apparently, MS Surface which presumably will upgrade Surface Pro X to Snapdragon X Elite this year. Next year 2025 and later, NV and AMD have won the contract for upcoming Surface X series. PS: And I believe here is the source of Reuter's leaks. If Microsoft going to launch new Surface in 2025, the specs must be better than upcoming Surface Pro X w/ X Elite.......or not? See below:

	X Elite G1	Tegra T239	NV's ARM 72-bit MC	Lunar Lake
Launching Date	Q3 2024	?	2025 ?	Q4 2024
Node	N4P	Samsung 7LPH	Intel 3-E ?	N3B + N6
Memory Supported	128-bit LPDDR5X-8533	128-bit LPDDR5-6400	72-bit LPDDR6	128-bit LPDDR5X-8533
Memory BW	136 GB/s	102 GB/s	GB/s	136 GB/s

CPU	12P Oryon	8 x A78	8 cores ?	4P + 4E
GPU	Adreno	Ampere	Blackwell ?	Arc 8 XE
CUDA		1024
RT	N	?	?	Y
FP32	4.6 TF	~ 1.88 TF	~ 4 TF	3.8 TF
AIE (TOPS)	45		?	?

If MS choose 72-bit version, then NV SoC will be used for Surface Go 4 ? Anyone remember Surface RT????

Qualcomm, AMD and NV are all creating their ARM SoC because they are coming after Intel's longtime stronghold of personal computers. As ARM's Cortex X series are getting faster each generation especially with the arrival of LPDDR6 memory, ARM PCs are getting strong enough to challenge x86's performance.

	Intel 's MTL-U	NV's ARM SoC
Launch Date	Q4 2023	2025 ?
Process	Intel 4 + N5 + N6 + N6 w/ Base Tile	Intel 3-E ?
SoC Design	4-tile	Monolithics
CPU	Intel x86	ARM
Processor Base Power	9 - 30 W

Model	Core Ultra 7-164U
Total Threads	14	8 ?
Performance Cores	2P / 4T
Clock Speed	1.1 - 4.8 GHz

Efficient Cores	8E / 8T
Clock Speed	0.7 - 3.8 GHz

LP Efficient Cores	2e / 2T
Clock Speed	0.4 - 2.1 GHz
SLC Cache	12 MB

GB6 1T	2172
PPC	452
GB6 MT	8552

Max Size	64 GB	12, 18, 24 GB
Memory Types	128-bit LPDDR5-6400	72-bit LPDDR6
Memory BW	102 GB/s	GB/s

GPU	Intel Graphics	Blackwell ?
ALU	512
Max Frequency	1.8 GHz
FP32	1.8 TF	~ 4 TF ?

NPU	Intel AI Boost
Max Frequency	1.4 GHz
TOPS	10 ?	40 ?

SteinFG · Feb 19, 2024

Watch as nvidia just puts switch2 chip in there lol

Tigerick · Feb 29, 2024

@Kepler_L2

Steam Deck and upcoming Switch 2 are having same memory bandwidth, their raw performance (ie. excluding DLSS) should be similar. There is no way Switch 2's performance is up to XSS which has double memory bandwidth. MLID does not know what he is talking about. We are talking about rasterization performance, DLSS of course will make difference in FPS.

PS: XSS has 4TF while T239 should have around 1.88 TF (depends on final clock speed), slightly higher than Steam Deck's 1.6TF.

Saylick · Feb 29, 2024

Tigerick said:
@Kepler_L2

Steam Deck and upcoming Switch 2 are having same memory bandwidth, their raw performance (ie. excluding DLSS) should be similar. There is no way Switch 2's performance is up to XSS which has double memory bandwidth. MLID does not know what he is talking about. We are talking about rasterization performance, DLSS of course will make difference in FPS.

PS: XSS has 4TF while T239 should have around 1.88 TF (depends on final clock speed), slightly higher than Steam Deck's 1.6TF.

One thing to note is that Ampere's SM isn't as performant on a per-TFLOP basis as RDNA 2, which is what the Steam Deck uses. When Nvidia transitioned from Turing to Ampere, TFLOPS per SM doubled but performance was only like 30% higher, not double. That 1.88 TF might behave closer to 1.25 TF in comparison to the Steam Deck.

Tigerick · Feb 29, 2024

Saylick said:
One thing to note is that Ampere's SM isn't as performant on a per-TFLOP basis as RDNA 2, which is what the Steam Deck uses. When Nvidia transitioned from Turing to Ampere, TFLOPS per SM doubled but performance was only like 30% higher, not double. That 1.88 TF might behave closer to 1.25 TF in comparison to the Steam Deck.

NV got deal mostly because Samsung 8N is cheap

Saylick · Feb 29, 2024

Tigerick said:
NV got deal mostly because Samsung 8N is cheap

One can also say they got the deal because Nintendo is cheap, too.

soresu · Feb 29, 2024

Saylick said:
One can also say they got the deal because Nintendo is cheap, too.

To an extent, but mostly that they would rather risk most investment on the games rather than the hardware since their last truly big step forward console Gamecube was a bit of a flop for them.

I'd expect what follows Switch to be >=3x GPU tho, and likely >=2x CPU.

Ghostsonplanets · Mar 1, 2024

Switch 2 at 1.88 TFLOPs would be 612MHz? That's the clock I would expect for Portable at most. Specially when compared to current Switch clocking at 768MHz Docked.

Also, it depends on their BC solution, but surely they would need to at least match the Docked clock of current Switch for BC games running on Switch 2 to not break, no? Assuming the same 768MHz Docked, Switch 2 would be around 2.35TFLOPs. I guess that is what can be expected.

soresu · Mar 1, 2024

Ghostsonplanets said:
Switch 2 at 1.88 TFLOPs would be 612MHz? That's the clock I would expect for Portable at most. Specially when compared to current Switch clocking at 768MHz Docked.

Given clocks have more than doubled for APUs since the Switch SoC was originally in the SHIELD TV it's a toss up what would be viable today - largely depending on a combo of cooling (to prevent throttling), battery, ALU count and fab node.

soresu · Mar 1, 2024

Ooof wow, taking 2015's Godaveri APU as a reference the clockspeed of APUs has almost quadrupled from its 720 Mhz to the 2,800 Mhz of Hawk Point.

Ghostsonplanets · Mar 1, 2024

soresu said:
Given clocks have more than doubled for APUs since the Switch SoC was originally in the SHIELD TV it's a toss up what would be viable today - largely depending on a combo of cooling (to prevent throttling), battery, ALU count and fab node.

I expect Switch 2 to be lower clocked. Nintendo has a power budget for the entire device of around 5 - 10W Portable and 10 - 13W Docked. I don't think this will change with their next device. But 612MHz would certainly be low for the GPU Docked clocks in my opinion. I think in the upwards of 800 to 900MHz is something more likely to be their choice.

But as you said, it depends on multiple factors. Switch form-factor performance is largely held back due to battery and cooling solution into a small body. High Performance from higher power budgets like PC Handhelds isn't to be expected at all.

soresu · Mar 1, 2024

Ghostsonplanets said:
Switch form-factor performance is largely held back due to battery and cooling solution into a small body

It's also using a 16nm node roughly equivalent to what Zen1 was fabbed on - aka TSMC's first finFET node.

So ye, frequency curve isn't exactly going to be stellar.

But it will be cheap as it comes.

jpiniero · Mar 1, 2024

soresu said:
Given clocks have more than doubled for APUs since the Switch SoC was originally in the SHIELD TV it's a toss up what would be viable today - largely depending on a combo of cooling (to prevent throttling), battery, ALU count and fab node.

Thing is, the Switch 2 is likely to be fabbed at Samsung 8 nm, ie: the same as Ampere. There's a chance it's fabbed at a better Samsung node... but I wouldn't bet on it.

soresu · Mar 1, 2024

jpiniero said:
Thing is, the Switch 2 is likely to be fabbed at Samsung 8 nm, ie: the same as Ampere. There's a chance it's fabbed at a better Samsung node... but I wouldn't bet on it.

That does fit with Nintendo's habit of using older hw and on cheap nodes.

TESKATLIPOKA · Mar 1, 2024

Steam Deck has up to 1.6GHz TFLOPs.
That means up to 1.5625GHz clockspeed for the 8CU IGP.

Switch has supposedly 6x more Cuda than the previous version. Link
That's 1536 cores, If It's Ampere based, It would mean 12SM.
For It to be on par with Steam Deck It would need only ~800MHz.
If It has only 8SM, then ~1.2GHz.

I personally think Nintendo will have to increase TDP to 15W, but It will be compensated by a bigger battery.

Ghostsonplanets · Mar 1, 2024

TESKATLIPOKA said:
Steam Deck has up to 1.6GHz TFLOPs.
That means up to 1.5625MHz clockspeed for the 8CU IGP.

Switch has supposedly 6x more Cuda than the previous version. Link
That's 1536 cores, If It's Ampere based, It would mean 12SM.
For It to be on par with Steam Deck It would need only ~800MHz.
If It has only 8SM, then ~1.2GHz.

I personally think Nintendo will have to increase TDP to 15W, but It will be compensated by a bigger battery.

Wouldn't 1536 CC@800MHz be 2.45TFLOPs though?

For 1536 CC/12 SMs to match SteamDeck 512 SC/ALUs / 8 CU @1.6GHz 1.6TFLOPs wouldn't it just need around 530MHz?

Of course just broadly speaking about the TFLOPs value. Not comparing real world performance nor specific Ampere and RDNA 2 layout or quirks.

As a thought experiment, if Nintendo just use the same clocks as Switch (Which doesn't make sense as it's a new SoC design with an entirely different manufacturing process), it would leave Switch 2 with:

Portable:
1536 CC@307.2 MHz: ~943 GFLOPs
1536 CC@375MHz: ~1152 TFLOPs
1536 CC@460MHz: ~ 1.41 TFLOPs

Docked:
1536 CC@768MHz: ~ 2.35 TFLOPs

TESKATLIPOKA · Mar 2, 2024

Ghostsonplanets said:
Wouldn't 1536 CC@800MHz be 2.45TFLOPs though?

Yes, but I meant real performance not TFlops.

Tigerick · Mar 12, 2024

Charlie @ SemiAccurate reported that NV's ARM SoC is made by Intel 3 process for 2025 launching which aligned with my leak.

I am not sure IFS going to make both 64-bit and 128-bit version, I tend to believe only 64-bit version available. The performance wise of course is much faster than T239. GPU should have around 4TF depends on clock speed and CUDA cores.

And this SoC also likely to be used on NV's handheld console to fight with AMD's custom APU. Can't wait....

PS: Anyone interested on upcoming Surface X RT Edition?

SpudLobby · Mar 13, 2024

Tigerick said:
Charlie @ SemiAccurate reported that NV's ARM SoC is made by Intel 3 process for 2025 launching which aligned with my leak.

I am not sure IFS going to make both 64-bit and 128-bit version, I tend to believe only 64-bit version available. The performance wise of course is much faster than T239. GPU should have around 4TF depends on clock speed and CUDA cores.

And this SoC also likely to be used on NV's handheld console to fight with AMD's custom APU. Can't wait....

PS: Anyone interested on upcoming Surface X RT Edition?

There’s a 64 and 128-bit bus version?

SpudLobby · Mar 13, 2024

Oh I bet it’s for handhelds.

Ghostsonplanets · Mar 13, 2024

64-bit bus will kill any potential of the iGPU. Unless it's a very cheap SKU like the Snapdragon 7c series.

FlameTail · Mar 13, 2024

Ghostsonplanets said:
64-bit bus will kill any potential of the iGPU. Unless it's a very cheap SKU like the Snapdragon 7c series.

Snapdragon 7c series actually had a 32 bit bus iirc. Horrible.

Still, 64-bit + LPDDR6 is actually 102 GB/s, which is a decent amount of bandwidth.

That's the same amount as Apple M3, and more than the M1 (68 GB/s).

FlameTail · Mar 16, 2024

Why is Nvidia partnering with Microsoft for the next Surface X?

Ghostsonplanets · Mar 16, 2024

FlameTail said:
Snapdragon 7c series actually had a 32 bit bus iirc. Horrible.

Still, 64-bit + LPDDR6 is actually 102 GB/s, which is a decent amount of bandwidth.

That's the same amount as Apple M3, and more than the M1 (68 GB/s).

Good call with the M1 comparison. Had forgotten that used LPDDR4x. So even a 64-bit bus will provide a good amount of bandwidth with LPDDR5/X/T. As long as Nvidia provides a reasonable cheap SoC, that's good for me.

FlameTail said:
Why is Nvidia partnering with Microsoft for the next Surface X?

WoA deal with QCOM expired and rumor says MS is pissed off about QCOM not fostering the WoA ecosystem despite having exclusive rights to it until now. So they're partnering with AMD for a custom Arm SoC for Surface and Nvidia is also developing an SoC to enter the WoA market. Not sure if they also have a deal with MS, but they might have.

FlameTail · Mar 16, 2024

Ghostsonplanets said:
WoA deal with QCOM expired and rumor says MS is pissed off about QCOM not fostering the WoA ecosystem despite having exclusive rights to it until now.

Damn. Guess we should have seen this coming.

After more than 10 years of WoA's debut, it still has <0.1% marketshare.

However, the unfortunate thing is that they are doing it just at the time Qualcomm seems to be finally getting their # together, with their Nuvia acquisition bearing fruit and the debut of the new Snapdragon X series.

Even as a Qualcomm fan, I am not complaining. I welcome Nvidia as a competitor to Qualcomm in the WoA space. It will ensure that Qualcomm doesn't become complacent or stagnant.

Ghostsonplanets said:
So they're partnering with AMD for a custom Arm SoC for Surface and Nvidia is also developing an SoC to enter the WoA market. Not sure if they also have a deal with MS, but they might have.

Well, I can see how Microsoft would like to give Nvidia a leg up to enter the industry.

Discussion NV Re-Enter ARM PC market in 2025!

Senior member

Senior member

Senior member

Diamond Member

Senior member

Diamond Member

Diamond Member

Senior member

Diamond Member

Diamond Member

Senior member

Diamond Member

Lifer

Diamond Member

Platinum Member

Senior member

Platinum Member

Senior member

Senior member

Senior member

Senior member

Diamond Member

Diamond Member

Senior member

Diamond Member