Discussion NV Re-Enter ARM PC market in 2025!

Shivansps · Mar 20, 2024

What im sure is that neither AMD or Nvidia will want to use the ARM arch to target a SteamDeck-like device, translation speed is just not good enoght. But i do think AMD may replace Mendocino in 2025 with a ARM SoC, maybe try their luck with an ARM soc as they always failed at that market with the x86 ones.
As for Nvidia first we need to see what they plan to do with the T239, if it is Switch 2 only or if they plan to use it for something else.

SpudLobby said:
Is the Nvidia SOC going to be for Surface or WoA broadly *and* Surface?

Two very different sets of outcomes.

No reason why the upcoming Tegra T239 could not be WoA already, at least from a hardware perspective, in fact thats way more than the starting x86 option we currently have with ADL-N, maybe even Mendocino too. If they dont do it is because they dont want to.

soresu · Mar 20, 2024

Shivansps said:
No reason why the upcoming Tegra T239 could not be WoA already

As T239 is A78 it would be inferior to the SD 8cx Gen 3.

I don't see nVidia doing that, except as perhaps a value/budget model.

Ghostsonplanets · Mar 20, 2024

T239 has a lot of cuts (No camera ISP and IO for example) and very reduced IO (4x PCIe Gen 4 lanes) while the additions are gaming focused like File Decompression Engine. It's a very custom gaming focused SoC for Nintendo. I doubt it will be used for anything WoA.

soresu · Mar 20, 2024

Ghostsonplanets said:
T239 has a lot of cuts (No camera ISP and IO for example) and very reduced IO (4x PCIe Gen 4 lanes) while the additions are gaming focused like File Decompression Engine. It's a very custom gaming focused SoC for Nintendo. I doubt it will be used for anything WoA.

The decompression engine seems like something that should be added to all PC's in the future, if it isn't in DirectStorage specs already.

soresu · Mar 20, 2024

Ghostsonplanets said:
T239 has a lot of cuts (No camera ISP and IO for example) and very reduced IO (4x PCIe Gen 4 lanes) while the additions are gaming focused like File Decompression Engine. It's a very custom gaming focused SoC for Nintendo. I doubt it will be used for anything WoA.

Wait, do current AMD APUs have an ISP?

Shivansps · Mar 20, 2024

soresu said:
As T239 is A78 it would be inferior to the SD 8cx Gen 3.

I don't see nVidia doing that, except as perhaps a value/budget model.

Better than ADL-N with a fast IGP, whats wrong with that?

soresu · Mar 20, 2024

Shivansps said:
Better than ADL-N with a fast IGP, whats wrong with that?

Wouldn't that class as a budget/value SKU?

FlameTail · Mar 20, 2024

This is the Snapdragon 8 Gen 3. Look at how massive the Spectra ISP is. It takes up more space than the modem or NPU! In fact, the ISP seems to be the 3rd biggest component in the SoC, only behind the CPU and GPU!

Shivansps · Mar 20, 2024

soresu said:
Wouldn't that class as a budget/value SKU?

On the higher side of the value/budget SKU, probably on the lower side of mainstream(for example i would like it to see it vs the quad Phoenix 2), it would depend on a few things, but a octa A78 is a lot of cpu power, they can probably make half of a T239 and still put it against ADL-N. 8xA78 is a lot, and lets remember that Windows 11 already runs great on a lowly RK3588 whiout a gpu driver.

Also if you plan to get in that market you kinda need to start low and aim at mainstream/budget, starting at premium is the mistake that Microsoft and Qualcomm made, WoA is in not in a state for premium devices to be attractive.

soresu · Mar 20, 2024

Shivansps said:
and lets remember that Windows 11 already runs great on a lowly RK3588 whiout a gpu driver

Oh?

Have you made videos of that?

Would be curious to see it in acton.

FlameTail · Mar 20, 2024

Shivansps said:
Also if you plan to get in that market you kinda need to start low and aim at mainstream/budget, starting at premium is the mistake that Microsoft and Qualcomm made, WoA is in not in a state for premium devices to be attractive.

If WoA is going to be mostly budget devices, then it's going to tarnish it reputation because in the minds of the people, "WoA = Budget". Like how Android's reliance on midrange and budget phones has tarnished it's reputation against the iPhone.

Qualcomm's mistake was charging premium pricing for hardware that was not premium. Snapdragon X Elite is finally remedying that mistake.

Shivansps · Mar 20, 2024

soresu said:
Oh?

Have you made videos of that?

Would be curious to see it in acton.

I didnt made any videos of that but i actually have Windows 11 installed on the NVME and Linux on the SD card, when i want to run linux i put the sd card in, otherwise it boots Windows. Most of the problems come from the lack of drivers and a community made UEFI rather than a hardware performance problem.

But yeah im suprised there arent more videos about it, the only decent one i could find is this one from when a time CPU clock was limited to 1.45ghz and we had no ethernet drivers.

In comparison a N100 scores around 350/1300 on that benchmark, its not that much faster.

FlameTail said:
If WoA is going to be mostly budget devices, then it's going to tarnish it reputation because in the minds of the people, "WoA = Budget". Like how Android's reliance on midrange and budget phones has tarnished it's reputation against the iPhone.

Qualcomm's mistake was charging premium pricing for hardware that was not premium. Snapdragon X Elite is finally remedying that mistake.

We are talking about a SoC that could provide more than enoght cpu perf for everyday computing with a IGP that could be around RDNA2 APU level i belive, it will be at least better than Vega, thats for sure, and probably do that at a lower power, there is no way something like that could damage anyone reputation. That is not a AMD C50. Or dual Intel small cores that cant even run Windows 10 well.

No one is going to pay premium for WoA were you are going to have problems, no drivers for your devices, and most software/games you want to play are going to run behind emulation were you arent going to have any of that premium performance. The only way to fix that is for WoA to gain market share, and there is no way to do that at premium.

FlameTail · Mar 22, 2024

Looks like Microsoft has permanently ditched x86 for ARM in their consumer Surface Pro and Laptop.

DON'T buy the new Surface Pro 10 or Surface Laptop 6 — Microsoft has better hardware just around the corner

Microsoft is planning a second wave of Surface PC hardware this spring that will arguably be better than the just-announced "for Business" models.

www.windowscentral.com

Now where does Nvidia's ARM SoC fit into this?

I suppose next year, while the Surface Pro and Surface Laptop are powered by Qualcomm, the Surface Pro X will be powered by Nvidia ARM SoC?

SpudLobby · Mar 24, 2024

Ghostsonplanets said:
Rumors say that the NV SoC is a play at the WoA platform due to MS increasing investments and the end of QCOM exclusivity. The Surface custom Arm SoC is being designed by AMD.

Yeah, I know the QC + investment part just curious if it was a Surface part exclusively like the AMD thing (I have heard that) or if it's a merchant silicon part that MS might adopt but is sold to any vendor.

Great news if it's a merchant part.

SpudLobby · Mar 24, 2024

Thibsie said:
Better encore and power management than AMD x86.
Supposedly AMD is also coming with an ARM soc for Surface. We'll see.

Uncore, yes, it will have this. So even if Intel 3 is behind they'll have other ways of competing.

SpudLobby · Mar 24, 2024

FWIW, from another member of the forum (won't disclose who):

I think any rumor of an Nvidia SoC on Intel 3 is complete nonsense. It's not a particularly competitive node, and even Intel themselves are not building a full SoC on it. The IP straight up doesn't exist. IFS de facto starts with 18A. Nothing before that is going to get any real traction.

Not sure how I feel about this. Intel 3 won't have the kind of HD cells that later nodes will and it's true it's not an exceptionally competitive node as of today as far as we can tell, but this also may change. It's their last FinFET node so they'd have reason to iterate upon it.

As far as we can tell from their own roadmaps, this seems to be the case - that they intend to iterate upon it and keep it around as a key foundry node, which makes sense given the costs associated with newer nodes. https://images.anandtech.com/doci/21271/intel-foundry-node-roadmap-2024-FFF.jpeg

Tigerick · Mar 31, 2024

SpudLobby said:
FWIW, from another member of the forum (won't disclose who):

Not sure how I feel about this. Intel 3 won't have the kind of HD cells that later nodes will and it's true it's not an exceptionally competitive node as of today as far as we can tell, but this also may change. It's their last FinFET node so they'd have reason to iterate upon it.

As far as we can tell from their own roadmaps, this seems to be the case - that they intend to iterate upon it and keep it around as a key foundry node, which makes sense given the costs associated with newer nodes. https://images.anandtech.com/doci/21271/intel-foundry-node-roadmap-2024-FFF.jpeg

IFS will keep updating Intel 3 process as shown in the leaks about Panther Lake iGPU. My source told me that iGPU's 4 XE is built by Intel 3 process, thus IFS have expanded graphics IP in Intel 3-E process. Therefore it is possible IFS is preparing Intel 3-E process for ARM SoC. Furthermore, ARM SoCs are more towards low power TDP which Intel 3-E should provide...

ARM SoC with 64-bit LPDDR6 memory bus is pretty small die, therefore they do not need to use most advanced process. In fact, I have found 9W MTL-U SoC that is comparable to upcoming ARM SoC. Please refer to the table I created in the frontpage, the CPU (2P+8E) performance is about M1-level. I am expecting ARM SoC to be at least better than M2....can't wait for real comparison

SpudLobby · Apr 2, 2024

Tigerick said:
IFS will keep updating Intel 3 process as shown in the leaks about Panther Lake iGPU. My source told me that iGPU's 4 XE is built by Intel 3 process, thus IFS have expanded graphics IP in Intel 3-E process. Therefore it is possible IFS is preparing Intel 3-E process for ARM SoC. Furthermore, ARM SoCs are more towards low power TDP which Intel 3-E should provide...

ARM SoC with 64-bit LPDDR6 memory bus is pretty small die, therefore they do not need to use most advanced process. In fact, I have found 9W MTL-U SoC that is comparable to upcoming ARM SoC. Please refer to the table I created in the frontpage, the CPU (2P+8E) performance is about M1-level. I am expecting ARM SoC to be at least better than M2....can't wait for real comparison

We'll see I guess but this is suspicious and a 64-bit bus for a Nvidia chip when they're rumored to go for the Windows PC market writ large is odd, unless this is for a handheld.

FlameTail · May 28, 2024

Mediatek will reportedly show off their Nvidia-Mediatek AI PC SoC at Computex 2024.

Source: https://www.ctee.com.tw/news/20240527700069-439901

FlameTail · May 28, 2024

Apple threw a wrench into the Snapdragon X Elite hypetrain with their unexpectedly early release of M4. Then Intel took a potshot at Qualcomm with their Lunar Lake announcement in the Microsoft Event. Now, Nvidia/Mediatek are throwing another wrench at them, in Computex 2024.

Nvidia will no doubt, be Qualcomm's biggest rival in Windows-on-ARM.

Thibsie · May 28, 2024

FlameTail said:
Nvidia will no doubt, be Qualcomm's biggest rival in Windows-on-ARM.

If it is not a half hearted attempt, yes. I expect them to.

FlameTail · May 30, 2024

@Kepler_L2

You say Nvidia's ARM SoC will use Intel 3, and not TSMC N3?

Kepler_L2 · May 30, 2024

FlameTail said:
@Kepler_L2

You say Nvidia's ARM SoC will use Intel 3, and not TSMC N3?

Whynotboth.jpg

FlameTail · May 31, 2024

Semiconductor legends take a stroll in a Taiwanese night market — Nvidia, TSMC, MediaTek, and Quanta heads seen eating dinner

A sign of things to come?

www.tomshardware.com

Nvidia CEO and Mediatek CEO dining together.

A sign of things to come.

NTMBK · May 31, 2024

FlameTail said:
Semiconductor legends take a stroll in a Taiwanese night market — Nvidia, TSMC, MediaTek, and Quanta heads seen eating dinner

A sign of things to come?

www.tomshardware.com

Nvidia CEO and Mediatek CEO dining together.

A sign of things to come.

...like what, indigestion?

Discussion NV Re-Enter ARM PC market in 2025!

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