Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

Tigerick · Aug 22, 2022

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.

Comparison of upcoming Intel's U-series CPU: Core Ultra 100U, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

Model	Code-Name	Date	TDP	Node	Tiles	Main Tile	CPU	LP E-Core	LLC	GPU	Xe-cores
Core Ultra 100U	Meteor Lake	Q4 2023	15 - 57 W	Intel 4 + N5 + N6	4	tCPU	2P + 8E	2	12 MB	Intel Graphics	4
?	Lunar Lake	Q4 2024	17 - 30 W	N3B + N6	2	CPU + GPU & IMC	4P + 4E	0	8 MB	Arc	8
?	Panther Lake	Q1 2026 ?	?	Intel 18A + N3E	3	CPU + MC	4P + 8E	4	?	Arc	12

Comparison of die size of Each Tile of Meteor Lake, Arrow Lake, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

	Meteor Lake	Arrow Lake (20A)	Arrow Lake (N3B)	Arrow Lake Refresh (N3B)	Lunar Lake	Panther Lake
Platform	Mobile H/U Only	Desktop Only	Desktop & Mobile H&HX	Desktop Only	Mobile U Only	Mobile H
Process Node	Intel 4	Intel 20A	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	Intel 18A
Date	Q4 2023	Q1 2025 ?	Desktop-Q4-2024 H&HX-Q1-2025	Q4 2025 ?	Q4 2024	Q1 2026 ?
Full Die	6P + 8P	6P + 8E ?	8P + 16E	8P + 32E	4P + 4E	4P + 8E
LLC	24 MB	24 MB ?	36 MB ?	?	8 MB	?
tCPU	66.48
tGPU	44.45
SoC	96.77
IOE	44.45
Total	252.15

Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake

As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)

DavidC1 · Apr 11, 2024

Only guy worse than MLID for "leaks" is that guy. Somebody said he had over 10K posts or something?

If you talk bad about Intel he will badmouth you. If you post any Intel info he begs you for info.

CouncilorIrissa · Apr 11, 2024

Lol, Prakhar is a bigger joke than witeken, MLID and RGT combined.

DavidC1 · Apr 11, 2024

Ghostsonplanets said:
It's fake. Huge Intel fanboy that doesn't know anything and he's usually all the time around tech twitter trying to get leaks.

Anyway, you can spot on that it's fake due to him claiming CPU tile and SoC tile are separated tiles fabricated on different nodes. While, from what we know, CPU and SoC tile are merged on PTL. The CPU core configuration is also straight out of MLID videos.

@Tigerick You should have also spotted that he claims Pantherlake has the third LPE core, when they are abandoning it with Lunarlake, a predecessor product. So they have LPE with Meteorlake, abandon it with Lunarlake, and comes back with Pantherlake?

You were also posting leaks, which makes this even more questionable. Are your "leaks" even genuine then?

mikk · Apr 11, 2024

DavidC1 said:
@Tigerick You should have also spotted that he claims Pantherlake has the third LPE core, when they are abandoning it with Lunarlake, a predecessor product. So they have LPE with Meteorlake, abandon it with Lunarlake, and comes back with Pantherlake?

You were also posting leaks, which makes this even more questionable. Are your "leaks" even genuine then?

I wouldn't say that. Lunar Lake gets 4 LPE cores in a sense they are moved out from the ringbus, means they can shut it down when only the LPE cores are active. They could repeat it for Panther Lake and also add 8 E cores into the ringbus because PTL comes for UPH segment. Of course we won't see another MTL repeat with LPE cores on a different tile and worse node.

Tigerick · Apr 11, 2024

Tigerick said:
View attachment 96751

Interesting leaks from unknown user

Hoho, you guys are too fast. I have verified with my source, most of the info are correct: That's mean some of old info are no longer valid:-

PTL-H comes with 3 tiles, not 2 as previously leaked: CPU, GPU and PCD tiles.
CPU Tile: This round CPU tile is a main tile with 2 D2D connectors: CPU tile is connecting with PCD and GPU tiles. CPU tile consists of 4P+8E+4LPe core with NPU, MC, media/display engine and IPU. 4 LPe can function as MTL; they are being used to shut down main CPU. NPU should have ~48TOPS.
GPU Tile: Xe3 iGPU has 120 TOPS with 12Xe cores. 40-50% faster is believable cause Xe3 comes with extra 50% core.
PCD is the name Intel used to replace SoC tile. Consists of PCIE, USB, TB, sound, display, imaging, wifi/bt, security complex, sensor hub and some other minor stuff. And indeed, is made by N6.
"Up to 40% lower power and 3 hours more battery life." Sadly, Intel don't specify which one. But I believe it is compared to ARL-H, not LNL due to 3 tiles design...

Ghostsonplanets · Apr 11, 2024

https://twitter.com/x/status/1778296969196105731

Beautiful thing.

mikk said:
I wouldn't say that. Lunar Lake gets 4 LPE cores in a sense they are moved out from the ringbus, means they can shut it down when only the LPE cores are active. They could repeat it for Panther Lake and also add 8 E cores into the ringbus because PTL comes for UPH segment. Of course we won't see another MTL repeat with LPE cores on a different tile and worse node.

Speaking of LPE, I just learned that the 4C SKT cores in LNL are supposed to be more like cacheless low power usage cores than proper E cores. And the bulk of compute falls into the 4P cores complex.

It certainly will be a disadvantage in certain workloads. On the plus side, efficiency should be great given that the E cores will act more like Apple efficiency cores.

Tigerick · Apr 11, 2024

mikk said:
I wouldn't say that. Lunar Lake gets 4 LPE cores in a sense they are moved out from the ringbus, means they can shut it down when only the LPE cores are active. They could repeat it for Panther Lake and also add 8 E cores into the ringbus because PTL comes for UPH segment. Of course we won't see another MTL repeat with LPE cores on a different tile and worse node.

Where have you heard about PCD??? I just heard from my source as explained above

Ghostsonplanets · Apr 11, 2024

Tigerick said:
Hoho, you guys are too fast. I have verified with my source, most of the info are correct: That's mean some of old info are no longer valid:-

PTL-H comes with 3 tiles, not 2 as previously leaked: CPU, GPU and PCD tiles.

CPU Tile: This round CPU tile is a main tile with 2 D2D connectors: CPU tile is connecting with PCD and GPU tiles. CPU tile consists of 4P+8E+4LPe core with NPU, MC, media/display engine and IPU. 4 LPe can function as MTL; they are being used to shut down main CPU. NPU should have ~48TOPS.

GPU Tile: Xe3 iGPU has 120 TOPS with 12Xe cores. 40-50% faster is believable cause Xe3 comes with extra 50% core.

PCD is the name Intel used to replace SoC tile. Consists of PCIE, USB, TB, sound, display, imaging, wifi/bt, security complex, sensor hub and some other minor stuff. And indeed, is made by N6.

"Up to 40% lower power and 3 hours more battery life." Sadly, Intel don't specify which one. But I believe it is compared to ARL-H, not LNL due to 3 tiles design...

This changes a lot of things, huh. At least doesn't sound something as broken down and expensive as MTL

Also, what's IPU? I suppose it's Image Processing Unit but then you claim imaging is on the PCD.

DavidC1 · Apr 11, 2024

Ghostsonplanets said:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1778296969196105731

The Lunar Lake MX leak told us all that info. Two tiles. There are some folks in the crowd that exist they cannot believe it until they have seen it with their eyes, like they are run by AI or something.

Ghostsonplanets said:
It certainly will be a disadvantage in certain workloads. On the plus side, efficiency should be great given that the E cores will act more like Apple efficiency cores.

That in itself is no guarantee. Execution of the team in fulfilling their vision is the rest. Lakefield in theory should have been great battery life but it sucked.

Tigerick · Apr 11, 2024

Ghostsonplanets said:
This changes a lot of things, huh. At least doesn't sound something as broken down and expensive as MTL

Also, what's IPU? I suppose it's Image Processing Unit but then you claim imaging is on the PCD.

Updated Information: Display phys and camera interfaces on PCD, display engine and IPU is on CPU tile

Tigerick · Apr 11, 2024

mikk said:
Isn't this a downgrade over 6+8 ARL-H with only 4+8, how does that make sense?

Intel is claiming 20% performance uplift. 4+8+4 we have 16 cores on the same die (18A) compared to 14 main CPU cores

DavidC1 · Apr 11, 2024

@Tigerick Sure, sure. If the leakers were real then they wouldn't make such a radical change as going from 2 to 3 tiles. You should ask them that question, or even yourself, saying with authority that they are genuine.

@mikk I'm talking about the mostly-useless LPE core config in Meteorlake where in local video playback, the most optimistic scenario(which maybe 1% of the population uses nowadays) saves a mere 0.15W. My Kabylake-Y Yoga uses about 4W in Youtube video playback. Saving 0.15W is in the margin of error, or some would put it(despite the tiny area usage) "waste of silicon".

Also even if Tigerick's "new leak" is true, 3 hours over crap is still crap, since even Meteorlake is arguably behind AMD's in battery life, nevermind ARM, which probably needs 40% on top of that at the system level!

Tigerick · Apr 11, 2024

DavidC1 said:
@Tigerick Sure, sure. If the leakers were real then they wouldn't make such a radical change as going from 2 to 3 tiles. You should ask them that question, or even yourself, saying with authority that they are genuine.

Don't worry, my source is the one mentioned about 12 XE3 before. Time will tell if above info are correct...

DavidC1 said:
@mikk I'm talking about the mostly-useless LPE core config in Meteorlake where in video playback, the most optimistic scenario saves a mere 0.15W. My Kabylake-Y Yoga uses about 4W in video playback. Saving 0.15W is in the margin of error, or some would put it(despite the tiny area usage) "waste of silicon".

DavidC1 · Apr 11, 2024

They need to move away from local video playback battery life tests. I mean abandon it.

Almost no one does that nowadays. Intel chips had Youtube acceleration since Kabylake.

My Yoga 11 uses 4W in Youtube playback. If it had a giant 75WHr battery such as "ultraportables" nowadays, I'd be able to watch for 12 hours before I plug in to charge at the optimal ~40% mark. The CPU package power is 1-1.2W with it.

IPS display means zero worry of burn-in, despite being a used device. OLED is fancy trash.

Ghostsonplanets · Apr 11, 2024

DavidC1 said:
The Lunar Lake MX leak told us all that info. Two tiles. There are some folks in the crowd that exist they cannot believe it until they have seen it with their eyes, like they are run by AI or something.

Pretty much. And if we're being charitable, the fact LNL used 2 tiles + dummy die was known for 3 years at least given that Exist had shared this info.

DavidC1 said:
That in itself is no guarantee. Execution of the team in fulfilling their vision is the rest. Lakefield in theory should have been great battery life but it sucked.

True, true. Lakefield one can chalk up to 10nm issues. But if Intel isn't able to execute a low power core on N3B, then their execution is terrible. Let's wait and see.

DavidC1 said:
My Yoga 11 uses 4W in Youtube playback. If it had a giant 75WHr battery such as "ultraportables" nowadays, I'd be able to watch for 12 hours before I plug in to charge at the optimal ~40% mark. The CPU package power is 1-1.2W with it.

To this day I still don't understand how Intel has regressed from the nice battery life and low power improvements they had with Haswell -> Broadwell -> Skylake -> Ice Lake -> Tiger Lake (And I'm being charitable with the later two). The fact Core M/Y series were dropped around ICL is pretty telling.

Ghostsonplanets · Apr 11, 2024

Anandtech did a MTL review:

The Intel Core Ultra 7 155H Review: Meteor Lake Marks A Fresh Start To Mobile CPUs

www.anandtech.com

Hulk · Apr 11, 2024

Ghostsonplanets said:
Anandtech did a MTL review:

The Intel Core Ultra 7 155H Review: Meteor Lake Marks A Fresh Start To Mobile CPUs

www.anandtech.com

This review is quite good. I would love to have known frequencies during some of the benches to figure out IPC but I know that is hard with laptops.

As I was reading through I was getting more and more depressed about MTL thinking, "not gonna buy one of these." Then I saw the battery life and my mind immediately switched to "gonna buy one of these!"

tamz_msc · Apr 11, 2024

I hope that Gavin can post an updated result with newer drivers as there is a vast difference in performance between 5176 and what is available currently. That said, the Company of Heroes result is quite interesting, as even with DX9 translation using DX12, Arc is pretty competitive with Radeon.

Ghostsonplanets · Apr 11, 2024

Hulk said:
As I was reading through I was getting more and more depressed about MTL thinking, "not gonna buy one of these." Then I saw the battery life and my mind immediately switched to "gonna buy one of these!"

You need to take these tests with a grain of salt, though. The VideoPlayback one is basically local playback and can be chalked up to the Compute Tile being deactivated while only the Media Engine, Display Unit and LPE cores being active.

The Office test is way more impressive. But I'm not sure if these numbers translate to real world conditions (But the test is legit and would be a common office day workload).

I do prefer Geekerwan test bench. Where he uses a Python script to do a timed loop through a bunch of applications, from Office work, Web Browsing, etc until the battery is depleted. MTL did really well in his test and was able to get more battery life than a AMD 7840 equivalent.

Either way, MTL is a impressive step up for Intel in battery life department.

SiliconFly · Apr 11, 2024

Hulk said:
...Then I saw the battery life and my mind immediately switched to "gonna buy one of these!"

These results are stunning! Almost 2X efficient than competition. But still, why is there so much discrepancy when compared to previous test results. What has changed?

And they should've also included 13500H or 13700H in the mix. Would have provided better clarity.

Question is, is it roughly 2X efficient when compared to previous gen? If yes, then it means MTL is terrific. If not, then it's better to wait for next gen.

Hitman928 · Apr 11, 2024

SiliconFly said:
These results are stunning! Almost 2X efficient than competition. But still, why is there so much discrepancy when compared to previous test results. What has changed?

And they should've also included 13500H or 13700H in the mix. Would have provided better clarity.

Question is, is it roughly 2X efficient when compared to previous gen? If yes, then it means MTL is terrific. If not, then it's better to wait for next gen.

They are not really comparable models. Anandtech is terrible about this in laptop reviews to the point that they use desktop CPUs in their benchmark comparisons (probably because they do so few so their comparison options are limited). The AMD unit has an RTX 4070 in it and is meant as a gaming laptop. The Zenbook with MTL is meant as an ultraportable and geared for battery life. That's why the MTL gets crushed in the performance benchmarks but wins convincingly in the battery life ones.

MTL should not lose this bad in performance, but the configurations of the laptops are basically at opposite ends of the spectrum. Using a more comparable model with an AMD chip would see the performance be much closer, but battery life would be roughly equal as well.

SiliconFly · Apr 11, 2024

Ghostsonplanets said:
Either way, MTL is a impressive step up for Intel in battery life department.

Well, the jury is still out on that one. But it appears the newer models are working well as advertised. Something has changed apparently. Wish someone can shed more light on that.

Hulk said:
Then I saw the battery life and my mind immediately switched to "gonna buy one of these!"

Well, battery life is one thing. But performance wise, it's barely on par with previous gen. If its efficiency is as good as advertised, it's definitely a decent buy. But not "top notch" imho.

Ghostsonplanets · Apr 11, 2024

SiliconFly said:
Well, the jury is still out on that one. But it appears the newer models are working well as advertised. Something has changed apparently. Wish someone can shed more light on that.

I think we had enough testing to conclude that MTL is on par or better in battery life with AMD Phoenix. And, in some scenarios, MTL can shine due to shutting off the Compute Tile. MTL problem is that it's truly a marvelous mess of engineering and costs.

Had Intel released MTL in early 23 like it was planned, it would have been a decently competitive part with AMD.

SiliconFly · Apr 11, 2024

Hitman928 said:
They are not really comparable models. Anandtech is terrible about this in laptop reviews to the point that they use desktop CPUs in their benchmark comparisons (probably because they do so few so their comparison options are limited). The AMD unit has an RTX 4070 in it and is meant as a gaming laptop. The Zenbook with MTL is meant as an ultraportable and geared for battery life. That's why the MTL gets crushed in the performance benchmarks but wins convincingly in the battery life ones.

MTL should not lose this bad in performance, but the configurations of the laptops are basically at opposite ends of the spectrum. Using a more comparable model with an AMD chip would see the performance be much closer, but battery life would be roughly equal as well.

Thats the problem with these tests. They should have used a similar 13500H or 13700H ultrabook. Would give more clarity. But still, these tests show significantly improved battery life over previous tests. Would be nice if they let us know what has changed since.

Hitman928 · Apr 11, 2024

SiliconFly said:
Thats the problem with these tests. They should have used a similar 13500H or 13700H ultrabook. Would give more clarity. But still, these tests show significantly improved battery life over previous tests. Would be nice if they let us know what has changed since.

Nothing has changed. . .

Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

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