Israel: We Are At War

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amenx

Diamond Member
Dec 17, 2004
4,116
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October 7th, 2023. An Iranian proxy known as Hamas that was supplied armed, trained, and paid, by Iran implemented a long standing Iranian policy. Death to Israel. Nobody disputes Hamas is an Iranian proxy force.

On that day over a 1000 were killed, and in the continuing violence over 30,000 have been killed.

And you feel Iran holds no responsibility in all this?


October 7th, 2023. An Iranian proxy known as Hamas that was supplied armed, trained, and paid, by Iran implemented a long standing Iranian policy. Death to Israel. Nobody disputes Hamas is an Iranian proxy force.

On that day over a 1000 were killed, and in the continuing violence over 30,000 have been killed.

And you feel Iran holds no responsibility in all this?


As for Syria:
It has managed to kill off 617,910 of its own people at the moment, with 6.7 million fleeing the country. These figures do not include disappearances or extrajudicial executions. To be a strategic allie with Syria is hardly any argument of good intentions.



Who remembers October 7th, 2023?

Iran has spent decades launching terrorist attacks on civilians, Israeli and others. Killing, murdering, men, women, and children without hesitation.

Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, Kataib Hezbollah, Asaib Ahl al Haq, Harakat Hezbollah al Nujaba, Kataib Sayyad al Shuhada, Badr Organization, Ansar Allah ( Houthis ), Zaynabiyoun Brigade***, Fatemiyoun Division**, Saraya al Ashtar, Saraya al Mukhtar, Hezbollah al Hejaz*

*directly linked to murdering Americans in Saudi Arabia

**this Iranian proxy floats between Syrian and Afghanistan, kidnapping Afgan children to fight in the Syrian/Afgan civil wars. Think of a big convoy that dips into Afganistan to replinish by becoming the apocoplypse, and then goes to Syria to fight, and then repeats.

***This brigade is forced conscripted out of the Pakistan Shiite refugee communities in Iran that predate the 1979 revolution. They either fight, or their families get it. Mainly fight as shock troops for Assad.

(I could go on, but you get the point)




At this point Iran has spit in the eye of UN law and the Geneva convention so many times perhaps the Geneva convention should be used as a checklist.
So much misapplied info, missing facts, context in this post I dont know where to begin. You are not even familiar with much of what you post since you haphazardly copy/paste instant wikipedia data that you just stumbled upon.

1- Hamas was non existent until 1987 and only came about after severe Israeli oppression that killed, maimed,1000s of Pals, women and children, bulldozed homes and displaced them from their lands to make room for illegal settlements. Said this before and will say it again: NO peoples on earth subjected to such violence and oppression will sit idly by with this being done to them without at least some extremist element amongst them lashing back with similar violence!

2- Hezbollah was NON-EXISTENT until the Israeli invasion of Lebanon in 1982. It was the logical outcome to an Israeli invasion and occupation that lasted 15 years (in South Lebanon). Resistance movements to occupations are basically enshined as a right to resist under the UN charter:

Reaffirms the legitimacy of the struggle of peoples for independence, territorial integrity, national unity and liberation from colonial domination, apartheid and foreign occupation by all available means, including armed struggle;

Hezb by and largely confined their resitance to military targets on their own territory. There have been rare occasions where they bombed civilians or Israeli targets elsewhere around the world, but much rarer than similar actions by the Israelis. They have a natural kingship to Iran by virtue of their Shia religion and naturally accept support from them. Their political wing was recognized by France, Spain and a couple other Euro countries until only recently due to US pressure and Zio-lobbying.

Hezb and Hammas are the main actors vs the Israelis. All the other minor terror or militant groups you list were non-existent prior to the US invasion of Iraq and the turmoil it brought to the region. Of course Iran would want to support some of them (only the Shia groups, not the Jihadists) as Iraq is on its doorstep! They do not want a hostile Iraq under US, Zio influence to one day launch a war against them! Which was actually on the cards then and even now with current Zio lobbying.

Not sure why you are quoting my earlier post re the Israeli bombing of Iraqs nuclear reactor in 1981. Hamas, Hezb, Qaeda and all other resistance or militant or Jihadi groups were non-existant then. Iran had not yet developed into a serious adversarial player in the region and were fending off a major Iraqi invasion of their territory under Saddam. The point of my post was to demonstrate how the US (and all other members of the UN Security Council) condemnded the Israeli action! Unanimously!

It was to demonstrate how the prevailing world view then did not tolerate Israeli actions that they viewed were detrimental to international security. That Zio-Lobbying was not so all-pervasive as it is today. If Israel had bombed ANY CONSULATE anywhere in the region they would have been similarly condemned back then!

Its a bit of a chore to argue with young ppl who were not around decades ago at the time of the 1981 event as they have no clue as to how things played out vs today. Nor about the role of Zio-Lobbying that has taken over much of the media and political corruption of some of the Western powers today that would not have tolerated the more egregious Israeli actions today vs back then.
 
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Captante

Lifer
Oct 20, 2003
30,317
10,814
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It's a bit of a chore to argue with young ppl who were not around decades ago

I think you MAY be posting in the wrong forum. (young folks are scarce in these parts!)



Having said that, war sucks in every possible way and so do those who advocate in favor of it. This includes every single terrorist-group named in this thread and many more plus right-wing Israel and (by extension) the UK/USA by supplying arms.

For as long as I've been aware of such things (51 years or so) world-news has been chock-full of near constant warfare in the middle east for whatever STUPID reason and I'm sick of funding any part of it with my tax-dollars.
 
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gorobei

Diamond Member
Jan 7, 2007
3,781
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so iran wasnt that interested in actually hitting anything with the last barrage. they telegraphed the plan, leaked the locations targeted and directions of approach through diplomatic back channels, then declared mission accomplished when they were all shot down.

so i havent been following this thread with all its tangents. but do we have the temperature of the room on cutting off US weapons and money to isreal contingent on their behavior?(stop making new settlements, stop reckless-negligent attacks, etc).

i'm a bit older and can remember in the 80's when any hint of lack of support for isreal was heresy. seems like the hardline wing of their government has burn thru whatever goodwill was left from those past times.
i think the generation of US christian nutjobs who wanted war in the middle east to accelerate the apocalypse/rapture is starting to dwindle from aging out, so a rational discussion on the US future involvement/withdrawal in isreal seems possible.
 

amenx

Diamond Member
Dec 17, 2004
4,116
2,396
136
I think you MAY be posting in the wrong forum. (young folks are scarce in these parts!)
Yes know that. Not speaking in a general sense but to the individual I was addressing. Could tell he/she was completely unaware of the Israeli bombing of the Iraq nuclear facility in 1981 and how the US responded to it then. Ppl who were around at that time would have been aware of it. Was a big story back then.
 

amenx

Diamond Member
Dec 17, 2004
4,116
2,396
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Wikipedia was subject to an inflitration attempt many years ago by pro-Israel CAMERA group. They tried to install editors who would re-write much of the unfavorable parts about Israel. Wiki is great for non-political topics but can be skewed by those with an agenda. Israel is the no.1 manipulator of information in the world today. They know its the most important thing that could ruin them or save them.

 
Mar 11, 2004
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so iran wasnt that interested in actually hitting anything with the last barrage. they telegraphed the plan, leaked the locations targeted and directions of approach through diplomatic back channels, then declared mission accomplished when they were all shot down.

so i havent been following this thread with all its tangents. but do we have the temperature of the room on cutting off US weapons and money to isreal contingent on their behavior?(stop making new settlements, stop reckless-negligent attacks, etc).

i'm a bit older and can remember in the 80's when any hint of lack of support for isreal was heresy. seems like the hardline wing of their government has burn thru whatever goodwill was left from those past times.
i think the generation of US christian nutjobs who wanted war in the middle east to accelerate the apocalypse/rapture is starting to dwindle from aging out, so a rational discussion on the US future involvement/withdrawal in isreal seems possible.

Yes, because its become impossible to ignore what Israel was doing. I think it started in 2014/2015 when Bibi finally dropped the pretense of them accepting the two-state solution and he openly courted hard right Israelis. Also more media started fact checking Israel's claims and found they were often full of shit. This at times included former IDF members saying what they were ordered to do, or social media of Israelis gloating about doing awful shit. And as Israel claimed more ridiculous things (babies in ovens, beheaded babies, etc) people became even more incredulous, and then when Israel will double or triple down on such claims even after attempts at corroborating them show they're just made up, they further lose credibility. Also, more people are becoming aware of their history. Stuff like how Israel helped Hamas form because the PLO often wouldn't get duped by Israel's attempts to goad them into actions that would then give Israel cover to carry out their bloodlust. And just how obviously blatantly corrupt the hardline far right in Israel are.

Its kinda like police brutality in the US, black people had been telling us about it for decades, with every so often some evidence (Rodney King) showing the truth, but people still didn't want to believe because of a mix of robust propaganda and how embedded both are in American politics which enabled them to blind many people. But prevalence of modern technology (smartphones/video cameras/social media) has enabled black people and Palestinians to document things such that its become basically impossible to ignore the reality.

I think you're sorely mistaken on that last part. They literally have been building an army and having as many kids as possible to prepare for the end times. Duh-bya even went to Israel as an ambassador for an organization that believes they need to convert as many Jews as possible before the end times, and he did that within like the last 10 years. I'm not sure he was aware that's what the organization's goal is, but it shows they have that level of sway.
 

raildogg

Lifer
Aug 24, 2004
12,892
572
126
Very interesting to see pro-Israel media spinning this thing 24/7 by minimizing any damage that may have been done to Israel. I guess that's the job of Western media these days, to cover for Israel.

They keep talking about the 99% of incoming targets intercepted by Israel, US, UK and Jordan. Well, this was the intention of Iran:

They warned beforehand of striking, they launched their slow drones and then launched cruise missiles. Not very fast moving weapons. Only after did they launch their ballistic missiles and it seems a few got through. So considering all this, it is not a surprise that the mentioned countries intercepted these weapons. That was Iran's goal and that's why used their slow and not-too-advanced stuff. Iran simply wanted to respond but not in a very aggressive way. Also, this let's Iran know details about Israel's anti-missile defenses and where they launch from, etc. So this seems like a win for Iran.

The cost of this to Israel and American taxpayers is probably over a billion while it cost Iran a few million (dollars). These air defense missiles will now have to replenished and Iran has more info about them as well.
 
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Ajay

Lifer
Jan 8, 2001
16,094
8,110
136
I think you're sorely mistaken on that last part. They literally have been building an army and having as many kids as possible to prepare for the end times. Duh-bya even went to Israel as an ambassador for an organization that believes they need to convert as many Jews as possible before the end times, and he did that within like the last 10 years. I'm not sure he was aware that's what the organization's goal is, but it shows they have that level of sway.
Have to speed up Armageddon. I've never understood that. We are going to change God's plans. That's a kind of Christianity I can't even fathom.
 

raildogg

Lifer
Aug 24, 2004
12,892
572
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Haaretz might be one of the few reasonable and logical papers left in Israel it seems. They admit Israel's failures and losses. Kind of surprising because Israel has been taken over by right wingers, far right wingers and extreme right wingers for a while now.


At this point, Israel has lost militarily in Gaza as it has failed to destroy Hamas. Therefore, it resorted to slaughtering innocent civilians instead as a form of collective punishment. Alongside, it has tried to expand the war into Lebanon and Syria, and now Iran as well. This shows Israel is desperate and is willing to do very risky things - because it is losing.

Keep in mind that Netanyahu has a coalition around him of extreme nationalist and right wing people who have no limits. So he has to keep up war and conflict going, otherwise he might lose politically as well as go to jail for his corruption charges. So that is another reason why Israel is keep on escalating despite losing militarily. And it is popular to do as well because Israeli society has become very radicalized. They don't want to live besides Palestinians, for the most part.
 
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blankslate

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2008
8,711
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Why would you post this easily-defeated, abject lie?

What do you hope to gain by making yourself a complete fool in front of everyone?
Apparently you chose to omit the correction at the end of post #3094 or maybe you just never saw it.
but ok.
Now address the video if you will?
However people might want to equate Russia's illegal invasion of Ukraine and it's results (particularly in light of the oft ignored but very likely sabotage of Ukraine/Russia ceasefire talks in early 2022 by a U.S. proxy) to a what very probably might be a genocide or at the very least Ethnic Cleansing... it's not quite the same.
Even given that Putin is a head of state who has very likely engaged in unaliving people for political/personal reasons.



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*edited for grammer and extra detail*
 
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blankslate

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2008
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514
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Apparently, the costs to shoot down the (alledgedly) telegraphed attack (or retaliation) was pretty high... have to find some additional sources to confirm that (what is currently) hearsay/rumor
 

rommelrommel

Diamond Member
Dec 7, 2002
4,412
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Apparently, the costs to shoot down the (alledgedly) telegraphed attack (or retaliation) was pretty high... have to find some additional sources to confirm that (what is currently) hearsay/rumor
It wasn't cheap. Some numbers are very overly high because I imagine Shaheds died to lots of cheaper solutions, not all to expensive interceptor missiles.
 

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
23,318
21,490
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Apparently you chose to omit the correction at the end of post #3094 or maybe you just never saw it.
but ok.
Now address the video if you will?
However people might want to equate Russia's illegal invasion of Ukraine and it's results (particularly in light of the oft ignored but very likely sabotage of Ukraine/Russia ceasefire talks in early 2022 by a U.S. proxy) to a what very probably might be a genocide or at the very least Ethnic Cleansing... it's not quite the same.
Even given that Putin is a head of state who has very likely engaged in unaliving people for political/personal reasons.



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*edited for grammer and extra detail*
very likely huh

It's like you're so close but so far....
 

linkgoron

Platinum Member
Mar 9, 2005
2,415
984
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The cost of this to Israel and American taxpayers is probably over a billion while it cost Iran a few million (dollars). These air defense missiles will now have to replenished and Iran has more info about them as well.
You already posted the exact same post yesterday. It's still a bad take. What would have been the cost in human lives and repairs if those weapons wouldn't have been intercepted? How much money will Israel make in selling defense weaponry thanks to this demonstration?
 

amenx

Diamond Member
Dec 17, 2004
4,116
2,396
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For those interested in an 'unfiltered' view of Hamas and how it was manipulated into becoming the monster its become.

By historian Zach Foster, Ph.D., Near Eastern Studies, Princeton University

 
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blankslate

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2008
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514
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very likely huh

It's like you're so close but so far....
Hasn't been absolutely proven but and maybe couldn't be in court but like the ICJ ruling about "high probability of a genocide taking place" to paraphrase the finding. yeah it's likely. as for your opinion about it... well do one thing and I'll accept it.
Give us an as well documented an example of when Russian forces caused the deaths of a family fleeing from a bombing zone in Ukraine in the same manner as is reported in this incident in with a 6 year old in a car with several people shot deat by th IDF called for help before the call ended amid the sound of gunfire.

Paramedics from the Palestinian Red Crescent Society (PRCS) managed on Saturday to reach the area, which had previously been closed off as an active combat zone.

They found the black Kia car Hind had been travelling in - its windscreen and dashboard smashed to pieces, bullet holes scattered across the side.

One paramedic told journalists that Hind was among the six bodies found inside the car, all of which showed signs of gunfire and shelling.

A few metres away were the remains of another vehicle - completely burnt out, its engine spilling onto the ground. This, the Red Crescent says, is the ambulance sent to fetch Hind.

Its crew - Yusuf al-Zeino and Ahmed al-Madhoun - were killed when the ambulance was bombed by Israeli forces, the organisation says.

In a statement, the PRCS accused Israel of deliberately targeting the ambulance, as soon as it arrived at the scene on 29 January.

Yes Russia violated the international law in their invasion but it has long been reported Russia would find countries along its border becoming NATO members unacceptable and drew red lines about the issue.
The current CIA chief told his bosses of these views when he held a diplomatic position in a U.S. Embassy in Russia.

While civilians have been killed in Ukraine, if there was a story of a similar nature in which Russian soldiers killed civilians fleeing the war zone in the same manner as described in the link above you would have already posted about previously in this thread and probably would be mentioning it as often as possible.

*edited 2 add*

just as I thought ignore the video from CNN showing that the history of the violence in Ukraine didn't start with Russia's invasion... I shouldn't have expect more I guess.



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*edited to correct atrociously bad grammer*
 
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amenx

Diamond Member
Dec 17, 2004
4,116
2,396
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NYT leaked memo details guidlines to journalists covering Israel/Gaza, Mid-east.

THE NEW YORK TIMES instructed journalists covering Israel’s war on the Gaza Strip to restrict the use of the terms “genocide” and “ethnic cleansing” and to “avoid” using the phrase “occupied territory” when describing Palestinian land, according to a copy of an internal memo obtained by The Intercept.

The memo also instructs reporters not to use the word Palestine “except in very rare cases” and to steer clear of the term “refugee camps” to describe areas of Gaza historically settled by displaced Palestinians expelled from other parts of Palestine during previous Israeli–Arab wars. The areas are recognized by the United Nations as refugee camps and house hundreds of thousands of registered refugees...

“It’s the kind of thing that looks professional and logical if you have no knowledge of the historical context of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict.”

 

raildogg

Lifer
Aug 24, 2004
12,892
572
126
You already posted the exact same post yesterday. It's still a bad take. What would have been the cost in human lives and repairs if those weapons wouldn't have been intercepted? How much money will Israel make in selling defense weaponry thanks to this demonstration?
This is not a good point at all because Israel's failures are apparent to the entire world now, despite the cover provided by Western media.

Israel is failing in everything they do, whether it is in Gaza, near the Lebanon border, with Syria and now with Iran. It is suffering one loss after another. Hamas is still operating so any ability of Israel to portray themselves as "superior" to anyone is gone. One area Israel is superior in is in genocide, that is well documented. Also, superior in killing journalists and aid workers.

So the world has seen so many Israeli failures over the past few months. The weapons that you speak of, well, Israel will need them itself, such as a massive quantity of air defense missiles. These are expensive weapons and in limited supply. The world has seen the failure of Israel to not even defeat Hamas in a tiny piece of land called Gaza. How can they possibly weaken Hezbollah let alone Iran?

I am not even going to mention the diplomatic losses Israel has suffered, which are huge. It's standing in the world is low despite protection from the Western world.
 

raildogg

Lifer
Aug 24, 2004
12,892
572
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Germany is once again on the wrong side when it comes to the issue of genocide. What a shameful display by this country. I guess Germany's guilty conscience over its past history makes it overcompensate on the issue of Israel/Palestine? Giving Israel weapons to kill innocent people is not enough for Germany, now it must silence people who are opposing Israel's genocide as well. I think Germany is even going beyond America these days in protecting Israel from public criticism, and that is saying something!


 
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amenx

Diamond Member
Dec 17, 2004
4,116
2,396
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As the founder of the so-called Civil Commission on October 7th Crimes by Hamas against Women and Children, Israel lawyer Cochav Elkayam Levy has been a go-to source for Western media organizations pushing the narrative that Palestinian militants carried out sexual assault on a massive and systematic basis when they attacked Israel...

She now stands accused by Israeli media of scamming donors and spreading misinformation. The allegations appeared just days after Elkayam-Levy received the prestigious Israel Prize...

 
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blankslate

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2008
8,711
514
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Imagine if Russia was targeting non-combatants as blatantly as the IDF has been doing...
If the media had hard proof of that as it does the IDF killing children purposefully (how can it be otherwise if they can visually confirm their targets?) then we would have some few members who would be dumping their brains out of their posterior orifice into their trousers...



____________
 

raildogg

Lifer
Aug 24, 2004
12,892
572
126
Imagine if Russia was targeting non-combatants as blatantly as the IDF has been doing...
If the media had hard proof of that as it does the IDF killing children purposefully (how can it be otherwise if they can visually confirm their targets?) then we would have some few members who would be dumping their brains out of their posterior orifice into their trousers...



____________
This is because Israelis view Palestinians as an obstacle to their goal of total control of this region and they really despise them for standing up. When bringing up the seed of Amalek and then having your soldiers sing and dance to this, it clearly shows that you wish to remove Palestinians from this region one way or another. So many atrocities and examples back up the claims that Israel is committing genocide. But this has been Israel's policy since its founding. Also, denying food, shelter, water, electricity and aid is another indication of this. I don't see too many recent conflicts where this has occurred as widespread as it has in Gaza.

Meanwhile, in Ukraine, Russia has not gone to this extent in any way and one reason is that they view Ukrainians as fellow Slavs, as fellow Orthodox Christians and as former countrymen. No intent to commit genocide has been found, and if it were, it would be broadcast on Western media 24/7. This does not mean that civilians have not been killed in this war and they have not suffered. However, one must not dismiss pro-Russia Donbass civilians either and they've been getting shelled and killed since 2014 or so. But we cannot call this ethnic genocide. So in terms of genocide, we usually see extreme hatred of one group of people by another group or country - in this case, neither Russia nor its people have intense hatred of Ukraine or Ukrainians. Is there an example here and there? Maybe, but unlike past and current genocides, this is not found.

Also, despite killing maybe up to a million or so Iraqi civilians since the 90s, I don't see too many people accusing the US of genocide. The wars were immoral and illegal and the US was criminal in doing so, it still did not constitute genocide in terms of overall view of those wars from what I've seen.

Although this article does make this claim:

 
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