Discussion RDNA4 + CDNA3 Architectures Thread

DisEnchantment · Mar 23, 2022

With the GFX940 patches in full swing since first week of March, it is looking like MI300 is not far in the distant future!
Usually AMD takes around 3Qs to get the support in LLVM and amdgpu. Lately, since RDNA2 the window they push to add support for new devices is much reduced to prevent leaks.
But looking at the flurry of code in LLVM, it is a lot of commits. Maybe because US Govt is starting to prepare the SW environment for El Capitan (Maybe to avoid slow bring up situation like Frontier for example)

See here for the GFX940 specific commits

History for llvm/lib/Target/AMDGPU - llvm/llvm-project

The LLVM Project is a collection of modular and reusable compiler and toolchain technologies. - History for llvm/lib/Target/AMDGPU - llvm/llvm-project

github.com

Or Phoronix

More AMD "GFX940" Enablement Work Landing In LLVM - Phoronix

www.phoronix.com

There is a lot more if you know whom to follow in LLVM review chains (before getting merged to github), but I am not going to link AMD employees.

I am starting to think MI300 will launch around the same time like Hopper probably only a couple of months later!
Although I believe Hopper had problems not having a host CPU capable of doing PCIe 5 in the very near future therefore it might have gotten pushed back a bit until SPR and Genoa arrives later in 2022.
If PVC slips again I believe MI300 could launch before it

This is nuts, MI100/200/300 cadence is impressive.

Previous thread on CDNA2 and RDNA3 here

Question - Speculation: RDNA3 + CDNA2 Architectures Thread

Man I have been dying to make this one for a while now. First rumours for RDNA3 are here so new thread time! Just going to start off with this one for now: kopite7kimi on Twitter: "@VideoCardz Ah, I mean a simple mcm design with 10240 cores is not enough. Because the lift from RDNA2 to RDNA3...

forums.anandtech.com

Timorous · May 10, 2024

Mahboi said:
"Decent Value proposition" means a minimum of 50$ more per SKU.
So no, for budget buyers it's not free. It's quite the markup, 25% almost.

AMD sells what people buy, and people here should really stop projecting their insecurities about 8Go already. It's still running 95% of games at 1080p Ultra and 98% at 1080p High. For the rest, lowering quality isn't nearly as much of a problem as $50 extra. That's what the budget market is, sacrifices.

I bought budget all my youth and quite a few years beyond, never cared for sacrificing ultra or high in some games, I cared about the 50€.

Great, looks like those buyers will have an N44 product to buy, 8GB is fine in a cheap enough part.

Once you are spending $250 or so 8GB just does not cut it anymore.

Mahboi · May 10, 2024

Timorous said:
Once you are spending $250 or so 8GB just does not cut it anymore.

Why that number specifically?
Between inflation and DRAM costs not getting squashed, that seems very unrealistic to me.
$300 seems like a more reasonable long-term guess for me. $250 is already teetering on barely doable IMO. Nvidia happily goes far beyond that price.

Timorous · May 10, 2024

Mahboi said:
Why that number specifically?
Between inflation and DRAM costs not getting squashed, that seems very unrealistic to me.
$300 seems like a more reasonable long-term guess for me. $250 is already teetering on barely doable IMO. Nvidia happily goes far beyond that price.

If AMD/NV try to charge $300 for another 8GB card it is going to get annihilated in reviews and it won't sell well at all.

Mahboi · May 10, 2024

Timorous said:
If AMD/NV try to charge $300 for another 8GB card it is going to get annihilated in reviews and it won't sell well at all.

Reviews don't mean a thing.

Timorous · May 10, 2024

Mahboi said:
Reviews don't mean a thing.

Of course they do. AMD, NV, Intel would not send review units if it was meaningless, they would just put up adverts.

Mahboi · May 10, 2024

None of the reviewers have even 1/4th of the clout they think they have. Maybe LTT do, but I'm not sure how much of an impact even they have.
Most reviewers act effectively as a first-source info that then gets digested by however many nerds out there. These nerds then advise people around them on what to buy or not buy.

In the less important than you believe 8Go card case, if the choice is between an expensive 8Go card and a cheap 8Go card, sure, after a certain price bracket it makes no sense anymore, but the range between "DO NOT BUY" and "not enough VRAM for the price" is quite wide. I could easily make a case for a 8Go card for $250, less easily for $300, not for $350. But I'd only call a $400 8Go card an outright scam.

That's a very wide fork, an almost 40% price window. If reviewers pan a card for VRAM, it isn't going to make it unbuyable, just slightly less valuable. And a card that goes into "outright scam" territory won't be made by AMD/NV because they know it will have serious problems.

VRAM is just not as simple as people say, there's mild sacrifices in detail quality or hard sacrifices in SKU costs.
The awkward spot of "this breaks in this game at 1080p/1440p" is also not as significant as people in the space think. 1440p 8Go and 4K 12Go seem to be the real rocky spots. 1080p 8Go and 1440p 12Go still are very safe bets, and while 1440p is kind of a real problem, 1080p buyers in 2024 are literally ultra budget. 1440p basically has by far become the cost-effective resolution while 4K is still way up. 1080p is only for ultra budget. Ultra budget buyers don't care about toning down some settings.

ToTTenTranz · May 10, 2024

Mahboi said:
Most reviewers act effectively as a first-source info that then gets digested by however many nerds out there. These nerds then advise people around them on what to buy or not buy.

Then, directly or indirectly, reviews matter.

Timorous · May 10, 2024

Mahboi said:
None of the reviewers have even 1/4th of the clout they think they have. Maybe LTT do, but I'm not sure how much of an impact even they have.
Most reviewers act effectively as a first-source info that then gets digested by however many nerds out there. These nerds then advise people around them on what to buy or not buy.

AMD / NV / Intel and OEMs would not engage with reviewers if there was no benefit to their bottom line, it would be a waste of money.

Mahboi said:
Ultra budget buyers don't care about toning down some settings.

$250+ is not ultra budget.

Mahboi · May 10, 2024

ToTTenTranz said:
Then, directly or indirectly, reviews matter.

3% is not "matter".
97% of the decision process is based on price vs competition and reputation.

Timorous said:
AMD / NV / Intel and OEMs would not engage with reviewers if there was no benefit to their bottom line, it would be a waste of money.

Engage?
You think it's a lot of effort to keep a guy's phone and address and send him a product to review every product, and then call him to ask him his opinion once in a while?
They use them as semi-independent mouthpieces and to get a feel for the general opinion.

Timorous said:
$250+ is not ultra budget.

It is.
I defy anyone to make the silly claim that $250 isn't going to be the absolute minimum for decent GPUs in the future.
Anything below will be used, price depreciated from age, or not worth buying.

Timorous · May 10, 2024

Mahboi said:
Engage?
You think it's a lot of effort to keep a guy's phone and address and send him a product to review every product, and then call him to ask him his opinion once in a while?
They use them as semi-independent mouthpieces and to get a feel for the general opinion.

Don't be silly.

Mahboi said:
It is.
I defy anyone to make the silly claim that $250 isn't going to be the absolute minimum for decent GPUs in the future.
Anything below will be used, price depreciated from age, or not worth buying.

It could very well be the new entry point. It still does not make it ultra budget.

maddie · May 10, 2024

If the 8500 XT is $300, then what are the other prices, the 8600 XT & 8700 XT? In the 8700 XT case, with double the ram and ~ double the GPU production cost, and then we have the 8700 XTX?

These should be priced as a family, not in isolation.

igor_kavinski · May 10, 2024

Mahboi said:
But I'd only call a $400 8Go card an outright scam.

And a card that goes into "outright scam" territory won't be made by AMD/NV because they know it will have serious problems.

Nvidia is the King of ....

I believe you are acquainted with the 4060 Ti?

Look, Jensen has kindly and generously saved you a $1! https://www.bestbuy.com/site/nvidia...m-black/6543946.p?skuId=6543946&intl=nosplash

Technically it's not a scam, right?

Mahboi · May 10, 2024

Timorous said:
Don't be silly.

I don't think the relationships between reviewers and corporations are anything else than the relationships between corporations and business clients.
Call them, be friendly, maintain a good relationship, invite them to tasty food and if you can put them in your pocket, put them.

But no, I don't think many of them get an extra amount of work. For most, it's a business-to-partner relationship.
What do you think they do for reviewers?

Timorous said:
It could very well be the new entry point. It still does not make it ultra budget.

I'm sorry to come back to economics all over again, but if everything is expensive, it's not that everything is expensive, it's that your currency is watered down.

igor_kavinski said:
Nvidia is the King of ....

I believe you are acquainted with the 4060 Ti?

Look, Jensen has kindly and generously saved you a $1! https://www.bestbuy.com/site/nvidia...m-black/6543946.p?skuId=6543946&intl=nosplash

Technically it's not a scam, right?

Honestly, I was thinking of the 4060 Ti when I wrote it, and I do think that it is a horrible deal that only NV would be shameless enough to put out as "normal".
The cards I've hated the most with Lovelace are 4060 Ti and 4070 Ti.

Rekluse · May 10, 2024

Kepler_L2 said:
There is no 8800.

Damn, I thought they were going to split the bigger die into RX 8700/8800 variants and the smaller die as RX 8500/8600. Still curious how a lack of halo affects launch pricing. I'd expect they'd be priced to move, since they have no headliner to pull the price up.

Mahboi · May 10, 2024

maddie said:
If the 8500 XT is $300, then what are the other prices, the 8600 XT & 8700 XT? In the 8700 XT case, with double the ram and ~ double the GPU production cost, and then we have the 8700 XTX?

These should be priced as a family, not in isolation.

8500 XT should be around $220.

My guesses are:

8500 XT: $220
8600 XT: $330
8700 XT: $440
8700 XTX: $530

That way the 8600 XT covers the same block as the 6700 XT, both VRAM and perf wise.
The 8700 XT is a slightly cut down XTX with a 256 bit bus, so I don't think they'll sell it anywhere lower than $450 and will probably sell it pretty close to the XTX.
For the XTX, I think they could push for $550, but from the 18Gbps GDDR6 and other signs, they clearly want volume here, not the highest perf. So they might be trying to lower costs and price as much as possible.

Again we are facing the strange situation where the top card is seemingly in competition with the N°2, and a little too close.

marees · May 10, 2024

Mahboi said:
8500 XT should be around $220.

My guesses are:

8500 XT: $220
8600 XT: $330
8700 XT: $440
8700 XTX: $530

That way the 8600 XT covers the same block as the 6700 XT, both VRAM and perf wise.
The 8700 XT is a slightly cut down XTX with a 256 bit bus, so I don't think they'll sell it anywhere lower than $450 and will probably sell it pretty close to the XTX.
For the XTX, I think they could push for $550, but from the 18Gbps GDDR6 and other signs, they clearly want volume here, not the highest perf. So they might be trying to lower costs and price as much as possible.

Again we are facing the strange situation where the top card is seemingly in competition with the N°2, and a little too close.

Since 8700 xtx is double that of 8500 xt, and there is extra over head for the smaller card, my expectation is that:

If 8700 xtx is priced $530 then the 8500 xt cannot be cheaper than $270

Timorous · May 10, 2024

Mahboi said:
I don't think the relationships between reviewers and corporations are anything else than the relationships between corporations and business clients.
Call them, be friendly, maintain a good relationship, invite them to tasty food and if you can put them in your pocket, put them.

But no, I don't think many of them get an extra amount of work. For most, it's a business-to-partner relationship.
What do you think they do for reviewers?

I'm sorry to come back to economics all over again, but if everything is expensive, it's not that everything is expensive, it's that your currency is watered down.

Honestly, I was thinking of the 4060 Ti when I wrote it, and I do think that it is a horrible deal that only NV would be shameless enough to put out as "normal".
The cards I've hated the most with Lovelace are 4060 Ti and 4070 Ti.

Reviewers are part of the marketing wing, if they did not provide a net positive return the vendors would not spend money on it full stop. They do so clearly vendors get a benefit.

When it comes to economics if vendors cannot offer an attractive product at certain price points they are better off not offering a product at all. Why spend time and money creating a product offering that won't sell. Better to just cut it entirely.

Sure low end may start at $250 but the buyers at that price point have certain expectations, if vendors don't meet those expectations product sales will be not be high enough to cover overheads.

This is why $100-$150 cards are no longer a thing, the offering at that price point would be so rubbish nobody would buy it.

maddie · May 10, 2024

Mahboi said:
Again we are facing the strange situation where the top card is seemingly in competition with the N°2, and a little too close.

This has been AMD almost forever. I always thought that they designed for the cut 2nd tier product with the unavoidable defects in fabrication and then used the perfect die as a margin-vacuuming product.

blckgrffn · May 10, 2024

Timorous said:
Reviewers are part of the marketing wing, if they did not provide a net positive return the vendors would not spend money on it full stop. They do so clearly vendors get a benefit.

When it comes to economics if vendors cannot offer an attractive product at certain price points they are better off not offering a product at all. Why spend time and money creating a product offering that won't sell. Better to just cut it entirely.

Sure low end may start at $250 but the buyers at that price point have certain expectations, if vendors don't meet those expectations product sales will be not be high enough to cover overheads.

This is why $100-$150 cards are no longer a thing, the offering at that price point would be so rubbish nobody would buy it.

The cards that are there are more... watered down. There are a couple Intel options, the AMD 6400/6500 at times. And they are pretty compromised (rubbish), especially the AMD parts. I do expect AMD to bring something to to the table around where the $170 3050 lives, but that could just be a long term spot for the 6600 or similar card to chill. Clearly nvidia is willing to let a super cut down last gen card fill that roll.

maddie · May 10, 2024

marees said:
Since 8700 xtx is double that of 8500 xt, and there is extra over head for the smaller card, my expectation is that:

If 8700 xtx is priced $530 then the 8500 xt cannot be cheaper than $270

It works the opposite way. X % performance increase costs X+ % price.

Aapje · May 10, 2024

maddie said:
It works the opposite way. X % performance increase costs X+ % price.

Exactly. $270 is the maximum price.

Aapje · May 10, 2024

maddie said:
This has been AMD almost forever. I always thought that they designed for the cut 2nd tier product with the unavoidable defects in fabrication and then used the perfect die as a margin-vacuuming product.

If so, they utterly failed with the 7900 XT, because it was so close to the XTX that people left it on the shelves until the price was cut.

marees · May 10, 2024

maddie said:
It works the opposite way. X % performance increase costs X+ % price.

I was thinking:

The more you buy, the more you save.

maddie · May 10, 2024

Aapje said:
If so, they utterly failed with the 7900 XT, because it was so close to the XTX that people left it on the shelves until the price was cut.

True.

I think they tried to raise average margins, badly. Not by accident the shakeup in RTG followed, so we should have a return to AMD norms.

GodisanAtheist · May 10, 2024

Timorous said:
Nah, who cares about the name really. If the price/perf is there it does not matter too much.

- Everyone cares about name. Otherwise Nvidia wouldn't be grinding AMD into the dirt with their generally crap price to performance ratio.

Mahboi said:
Couldn't disagree more.
After they spent years since RDNA 2 where the main argument was "we have more RAM than them", putting out yet another 6-class with 8Go would earn them nothing but whistles.

- The argument has never been "the 6 series has 8GB". It's always been "don't sell me a $400 card with 8gb of RAM" AKA the 4060Ti. I mean we have an outrageously long thread right here on this forum covering this very topic, so I won't rehash all the same points here, but it ultimately comes down to "its not the 8GB, its not the name, its the price".

Discussion RDNA4 + CDNA3 Architectures Thread

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