Man votes illegally for 40 years, not deported or jailed yet.. guess why?

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Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
14,762
10,194
136
Why do you want population growth to end? Who is going to pay for all those promised social security benefits without new younger workers to pay into it?
Should pay for it with productivity gains, not further completely unsustainable increases in consumption. Feeding the beast of capitalism is a terrible reason to destroy the planet and what little shred of nature we have left.

That being said, we need immigration to maintain our population and we should be using it to bring in needed skills and labors.
 
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Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
14,762
10,194
136
Quite evident the US is infected with the same self destructive degrowth based NIMBYism that the UK is. Their case is just more advanced.
Once the oceans cover up half our population centers due to our worshipping at the alter of growth, the degrowth will take care of itself.
 

Greenman

Lifer
Oct 15, 1999
20,538
5,273
136
Republicans have always been against DACA, this is an example of the consequences of that.
No it's not. It's the consequences of a mistake. The fellow was issued a government I.D and a social security number. He joined the Marines. He paid into the SS system for 40 years. It's time to write the man a check.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
46,559
34,255
136
It doesn't have to be, but as of today it is. Regardless, all growth is extremely resource intensive, especially growth in first world countries.

Certainly within our power to make different policy choices.
 
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brycejones

Lifer
Oct 18, 2005
26,481
24,647
136
No it's not. It's the consequences of a mistake. The fellow was issued a government I.D and a social security number. He joined the Marines. He paid into the SS system for 40 years. It's time to write the man a check.
The law says otherwise who are you to question it?
 
Reactions: ch33zw1z

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
14,762
10,194
136
Certainly within our power to make different policy choices.
Sure, provide the policy choice that will lead to increased capitalistic growth without increased resource usage. The two can't be separated. You can separate specific types of resource usage, but not all. Population growth without consumption growth will not lead to economic growth.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
46,559
34,255
136
Sure, provide the policy choice that will lead to increased capitalistic growth without increased resource usage. The two can't be separated. You can separate specific types of resource usage, but not all. Population growth without consumption growth will not lead to economic growth.

If you're talking about rising oceans then I assumed your primary concern is carbon intensity. This is perhaps the easiest challenge to solve within our existing capabilities. We've decoupled economic growth from increased carbon emissions already.
 
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Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
14,762
10,194
136
If you're talking about rising oceans then I assumed your primary concern is carbon intensity. This is perhaps the easiest challenge to solve within our existing capabilities. We've decoupled economic growth from increased carbon emissions already.
We are over using all resources, not just fossil fuels, and we have not decoupled resource consumption growth from economic growth.

I do agree we could solve a lot of the carbon issue with policy choices that are very unlikely to be made any time soon. But that isn't going to do anything for the over use of water, the pollution of the oceans, or over fishing if the oceans.

I think it would be easier to use/tax productivity gains to get us out of the need for exponential population growth to prop up capitalism.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
46,559
34,255
136
We are over using all resources, not just fossil fuels, and we have not decoupled resource consumption growth from economic growth.

I do agree we could solve a lot of the carbon issue with policy choices that are very unlikely to be made any time soon. But that isn't going to do anything for the over use of water, the pollution of the oceans, or over fishing if the oceans.

I think it would be easier to use/tax productivity gains to get us out of the need for exponential population growth to prop up capitalism.

Better things are possible.


 

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
14,762
10,194
136
Better things are possible.


View attachment 98710
Obviously, that's just carbon, which I've said I'm talking about all resources. Infinite growth requires infinite resources, where are those infinite resources going to come from?

For example, the water to grow food for the ever increasing population? Or for that matter the helium for all the industrial and medical processes that are also needed for ever growing consumption?
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
46,559
34,255
136
Obviously, that's just carbon, which I've said I'm talking about all resources. Infinite growth requires infinite resources, where are those infinite resources going to come from?

For example, the water to grow food for the ever increasing population? Or for that matter the helium for all the industrial and medical processes that are also needed for ever growing consumption?

Shitcanning the ethanol mandate would probably do us for a few centuries.

Substitution and technology improvements can reduce our need for helium. MRI manufactures have been able to cut requirements by more than 2/3rds per machine IIRC.
 

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
14,762
10,194
136
Shitcanning the ethanol mandate would probably do us for a few centuries.

Substitution and technology improvements can reduce our need for helium. MRI manufactures have been able to cut requirements by more than 2/3rds per machine IIRC.
So to be clear, you think we can and should support infinite consumption growth? That there will always be a technical solution to the ever increasing burden on the planet?

How about nature, in 50 years do we just say that the local zoo is good enough? I mean, we are in the middle of the 5th mass extinction event and continued human growth will just accelerate that further.

I personally think it's better to stabilize and maybe slowly shrink the global population and allow our productivity gains to make up for the lack of labor. The world won't end if the billionaires can't grow their net worth 20% a year. Expensive labor encouraged productivity advancements.
 
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K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
46,559
34,255
136
So to be clear, you think we can and should support infinite consumption growth? That there will always be a technical solution to the ever increasing burden on the planet?

How about nature, in 50 years do we just say that the local zoo is good enough? I mean, we are in the middle of the 5th mass extinction event and continued human growth will just accelerate that further.

I personally think it's better to stabilize and maybe slowly shrink the global population and allow our productivity gains to make up for the lack of labor. The world won't end if the billionaires can't grow their net worth 20% a year. Expensive labor encouraged productivity advancements.

Good things typically do not happen to economies in nations with shrinking populations. US population growth is like one third what it was 30 years ago and is only maintained through immigration. My position is that the US can maintain a growth rate of say 0.5% annually and cut our environmental impacts at the same time. I'm just not sympathetic to the argument this is impossible simply because homeowners don't want to look out their windows and see a building over 2 stories.

Our ability to influence global population trends is limited but fortunately the Chinese are going to accidentally help is out there.
 

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
14,762
10,194
136
Good things typically do not happen to economies in nations with shrinking populations. US population growth is like one third what it was 30 years ago and is only maintained through immigration. My position is that the US can maintain a growth rate of say 0.5% annually and cut our environmental impacts at the same time. I'm just not sympathetic to the argument this is impossible simply because homeowners don't want to look out their windows and see a building over 2 stories.

Our ability to influence global population trends is limited but fortunately the Chinese are going to accidentally help is out there.
I agree it is a global problem. I support immigration to the US, I'd prefer it happen through a decent/regulated system, over what we have today, though (which I think most people agree on).

At a global level, though, I strongly disagree with the idea that we need more and more people. We need a new economic system that isn't dependent on infinite growth with finite resources. Automation should make that pretty easy over decades.
 

Lanyap

Elite Member
Dec 23, 2000
8,117
2,166
136
Waiting for DeSantis’s election goon squad to show up at 2am to arrest him for election fraud. Oh wait, he’s not the correct demographic and he’s probably republican.
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
69,363
27,554
136
Waiting for DeSantis’s election goon squad to show up at 2am to arrest him for election fraud. Oh wait, he’s not the correct demographic and he’s probably republican.
I can't think of a single good reason why a veteran would vote Republican when the party is hostile to veterans.
 
Reactions: hal2kilo

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
36,196
28,023
136
No it's not. It's the consequences of a mistake. The fellow was issued a government I.D and a social security number. He joined the Marines. He paid into the SS system for 40 years. It's time to write the man a check.
MISTAKE? Didn't stop prosecutors in Texas from sentencing Crystal Mason to 5 years in prison for 1 single vote and that was a mistake.

Any more excuses?
 
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