8GB VRAM not enough (and 10 / 12)

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BFG10K

Lifer
Aug 14, 2000
22,709
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8GB
Horizon Forbidden West 3060 is faster than the 2080 Super despite the former usually competing with the 2070. Also 3060 has a better 1% low than 4060 and 4060Ti 8GB.
Resident Evil Village 3060TI/3070 tanks at 4K and is slower than the 3060/6700XT when ray tracing:
Company Of Heroes 3060 has a higher minimum than the 3070TI:

10GB / 12GB

Reasons why still shipping 8GB since 2014 isn't NV's fault.
  1. It's the player's fault.
  2. It's the reviewer's fault.
  3. It's the developer's fault.
  4. It's AMD's fault.
  5. It's the game's fault.
  6. It's the driver's fault.
  7. It's a system configuration issue.
  8. Wrong settings were tested.
  9. Wrong area was tested.
  10. Wrong games were tested.
  11. 4K is irrelevant.
  12. Texture quality is irrelevant as long as it matches a console's.
  13. Detail levels are irrelevant as long as they match a console's.
  14. There's no reason a game should use more than 8GB, because a random forum user said so.
  15. It's completely acceptable for the more expensive 3070/3070TI/3080 to turn down settings while the cheaper 3060/6700XT has no issue.
  16. It's an anomaly.
  17. It's a console port.
  18. It's a conspiracy against NV.
  19. 8GB cards aren't meant for 4K / 1440p / 1080p / 720p gaming.
  20. It's completely acceptable to disable ray tracing on NV while AMD has no issue.
  21. Polls, hardware market share, and game title count are evidence 8GB is enough, but are totally ignored when they don't suit the ray tracing agenda.
According to some people here, 8GB is neeeevaaaaah NV's fault and objective evidence "doesn't count" because of reasons(tm). If you have others please let me know and I'll add them to the list. Cheers!
 
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psolord

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nurturedhate said:
We've had sub 30fps consoles for literal DECADES...

Again, history, learn it.
Click to expand...
Wow much fps, great quality gaming. Well that's why I hate consoles. Jedi Survivor has some 10fps drops in some locations on the PS5, lol. If I can solve such problems, of my favorite hobby, by choosing better hardware, I sure as hell will! If I wanted stagnation and sub 60 or sub 30 as you say, gaming, I'd get a console sure. I mean I had a few of those, but I grew up.

Also spare me the history lessons please? The first game I played, was on an Atari 2600. I know what has happened ever since.

If you want to be just a little honest, in this whole debacle of a thread, the fact of the matter is that suddenly 30fps start to be enough, only in the newly found limelight that there is a big difference at 4k with ridiculous settings, between 8GB and their 16GB counterparts.

Gen 9 consoles, have joyously started re-discovering 60fps gaming, through their performance modes, even at medium settings, everybody in the industry says sure go for the 60fps mode instead of the 30fps mode and users in this thread, PC users no less, suddenly think 30fps is enough.

We've been playing Quake at 100fps, 20 years ago and now 30fps is enough.

NVIDIA GeForce 7800 GTX 512: More Than Just More Memory

www.anandtech.com
What a joke!

It would be great if everybody stopped their favorite activity in this thread and then accuse me of doing so....

 
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psolord

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igor_kavinski said:
The ONLY time I've had a bad reaction to console gameplay is when I tried to turn the image quality settings to MAX on my LG OLED C8. Forza Horizon 4 became unplayable due to massive input lag. And I've played MGS3 on a laptop with a lame TV tuner box connected to a PS2. There was a noticeable lag but my brain adjusted for it. Other than these instances, I've never had a problem with <=30 fps on consoles so why would I suddenly care about that on PC?
Click to expand...
Again different things Igor.

The settings you fiddled with on your TV, incurred a 100-200ms lag. Of course you cannot respond with that kind of delay.

There are νumerous 30fps vs 60fps vids on Youtube. You could see some differences there. Here is a basic example.


Even easier way to do it, run a game on your own system at 60fps and 30fps and tell me how you feel.
 
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Thunder 57

Platinum Member
Aug 19, 2007
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psolord said:
Wow much fps, great quality gaming. Well that's why I hate consoles. Jedi Survivor has some 10fps drops in some locations on the PS5, lol. If I can solve such problems, of my favorite hobby, by choosing better hardware, I sure as hell will! If I wanted stagnation and sub 60 or sub 30 as you say, gaming, I'd get a console sure. I mean I had a few of those, but I grew up.

Also spare me the history lessons please? The first game I played, was on an Atari 2600. I know what has happened ever since.

If you want to be just a little honest, in this whole debacle of a thread, the fact of the matter is that suddenly 30fps start to be enough, only in the newly found limelight that there is a big difference at 4k with ridiculous settings, between 8GB and their 16GB counterparts.

Gen 9 consoles, have joyously started re-discovering 60fps gaming, through their performance modes, even at medium settings, everybody in the industry says sure go for the 60fps mode instead of the 30fps mode and users in this thread, PC users no less, suddenly think 30fps is enough.

We've been playing Quake at 100fps, 20 years ago and now 30fps is enough.

NVIDIA GeForce 7800 GTX 512: More Than Just More Memory

www.anandtech.com
What a joke!

It would be great if everybody stopped their favorite activity in this thread and then accuse me of doing so....

View attachment 98933
Click to expand...

What a joke? Your commentary is a joke! You keep saying how old and wise you are as if nobody else here has been working with computers for as long as you have, and therefore everyone should shut up and listen.

You say you've been playing with consoles since the Atari 2600, if so you must know consoles have had crap framrates in the past. Well under 30fps depending on the game. You said 46fps is unplayable, by your own admission that is false based on old consoles. I don't know why you keep pushing some narrative other than you like the attention you get from it. Your nonsense has kept this thread alive for years! I thought it should be kept open but now I think maybe it should be locked.
 
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psolord

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Ranulf said:
Well here we go... ram in theory doesn't matter that much in Homeworld 3. 1080p tests from gamegpu. The most interesting part though, is that gamegpu confirms what I've seen reported by the early access players in the Steam forums, the game's built in benchmark does not represent gameplay. Namely the game runs faster than the benchmarks.

Almost all cards in the benchmark are the same on a 7800x3d cpu and really the same for all cpu's tested. Basically no matter the ram, Nvidia cards were getting 33fps min, 68max. AMD, 31min and 72 max fps. In the actual game, current gen cards are hitting 70-80 min fps, upwards of 170 for a 7900XTX.

Then they show Vram usage, to quote:



The whole review is worth a look, I sure am not impressed with the game's RT.

Click to expand...
Glad you mentioned it. They have weird findings for sure. However the fact of the matter is that in game, there is no vram limitation. Not even in the higher resolutions.

The 4060ti is still way faster than the 3060 for example. As is the 3060ti. Top 8GB is twice as fast compared to the slowest 8GB card and so on and so forth.

============

They also revisited Helldivers II, and tested Indika and Sand Land. No vram problems either. There sure are, so many trees I am looking at, while missing the forest, as I have been told...

I could also raise you Instruments of Destruction, which a very fun physics destruction game.

Save 15% on Instruments of Destruction on Steam

Break thru walls, tear down buildings, and send structures crashing into each other in Instruments of Destruction, a vehicle-action game featuring advanced physics-based destruction. Pilot a variety of vehicles across dozens of missions and high score challenges in this highly-interactive world.
store.steampowered.com

I asked gamegpu to test it, don't know if they will.

I haven't concluded my own testing, but it surely is primarily gpu power limited, even on the GTX 970, with a little above 3GBs vram usage. Maybe even cpu limited. My 12400f run it easily with low cpu usage. I need to test my sandys and haswell to know for sure.


It seems not even physics games, are vram limited.
 
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G

gdansk

Platinum Member
Feb 8, 2011
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He may have at least one point. Gamers love DLSS+FG. It looks like it will become ubiquitous shortly. With DLSS the memory requirements are reduced. I think 8GB is too low but maybe 12 or 16GB will be good enough for the next decade. Even 10 years from now if we're playing games at 8K+ finally they'll still be rendered (oops I mean fully path traced) at 2560x1440 then upscaled to 8K. There may be an upper bound to the memory they'll use for textures, vertices, etc if increasingly more complex and capable forms of upscaling can keep extracting more photo-realism from the same resolution and approximate detail scene.
 
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psolord

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Thunder 57 said:
What a joke? Your commentary is a joke! You keep saying how old and wise you are as if nobody else here has been working with computers for as long as you have, and therefore everyone should shut up and listen.

You say you've been playing with consoles since the Atari 2600, if so you must know consoles have had crap framrates in the past. Well under 30fps depending on the game. You said 46fps is unplayable, by your own admission that is false based on old consoles. I don't know why you keep pushing some narrative other than you like the attention you get from it. Your nonsense has kept this thread alive for years! I thought it should be kept open but now I think maybe it should be locked.
Click to expand...
Go back and see how long it was, before I posted in this thread. I never paid attention because I didn't think I would read the things I have read, lol. The thread was going on way before I entered the chat. The reason I entered, is because it is giving the wrong impression for the PC in general.

Yes 46fps...AVERAGE....for action and quick response games, IS unplayable, either you like it or not. Maybe it will be somewhat ok, with VRR, MAYBE.

I have quit consoles since the PS3 came out with its 256MB vram. No thanks. We had powerful Sandys even before that, that still run a huge bunch of games and we had Radeons with 3GB ram, two years before the PS4 came out.
 
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psolord

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igor_kavinski said:
Funny since you are the one who shifted the conversation from "Is 8GB enough?" to "60fps vs. 30fps"...
Click to expand...
No I didn't. I only said below 60fps, results are *mostly* unacceptable and useless. I have always been saying that. Some people decided to debate on that, not me.

Look I understand that let's say 11fps vs 27fps have a considerable difference. If you want academically to keep it as a result fine, but in terms of usability it's useless. I'd never touch either. Even in such examples, if you enable dlss/fsr, chances are they will level out and actually produce something playable. What is everyones response to such solutions? NO, YOU WILL ACCEPT 11fps. lol

Some large publications, have already decided to omit such data lately. I believe DF started doing that and HN applauded them for that.

I have a very steady narrative since I entered the chat (much later than people think apparently lol). Evaluate each card in their own tier/resolution, at their correct settings and with usable data. Everything else is moot.
 
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T

Timorous

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Oct 27, 2008
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psolord said:
Even in such examples, if you enable dlss/fsr, chances are they will level out and actually produce something playable. What is everyones response to such solutions? NO, YOU WILL ACCEPT 11fps. lol
Click to expand...

People will turn settings down obviously. The issue is that in case like TLOU at 1440p a 3060 12GB owner will need to make fewer compromises to get 'playable' fps than the 3060Ti 8GB owner will need to make or in something like Halo Infinite the 3060 12GB won't suffer from missing textures where as an 8GB card at the same texture settings will.

We see the same with the 4060Ti 16GB being a step ahead of the 8GB variant in quite a number of titles now. That list will grow and it is what makes the 8GB cards such low value when buying today.
 
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mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
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DAPUNISHER said:
If that is afterburner, the single VRAM field provided is allocated not used. Red Dead does not require anywhere near that amount of VRAM. I doubt the actual usage is more than 6GB or so for the 1080 bench.
Click to expand...

And yet the figure from HZD:FWest is very similar to the figures I've seen on my own PC for HZD through Task Manager / Process Explorer. On a previous run of the Aloy aged 6 cut scene, I posted a screenshot of it using >10GB, on today's run it used 9.6GB. According to some redditors, TM's usage figure is definitive though logically I would have expected the usage of a rendered scene to be near identical each time it's run with the same settings and hardware.
 
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DAPUNISHER

Super Moderator CPU Forum Mod and Elite Member
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mikeymikec said:
And yet the figure from HZD:FWest is very similar to the figures I've seen on my own PC for HZD through Task Manager / Process Explorer. On a previous run of the Aloy aged 6 cut scene, I posted a screenshot of it using >10GB, on today's run it used 9.6GB. According to some redditors, TM's usage figure is definitive though logically I would have expected the usage of a rendered scene to be near identical each time it's run with the same settings and hardware.
Click to expand...
Any particular game being correct does not validate the results of others. RDR2 is not a vram heavy game, it's that simple. It is known to still suffer from memory leaks though, particularly with Vulcan. Being a DIYer with cameras, capture cards, and time to make videos does not make one an expert. Proper testing methodology would have included the vram usage \ process for OSD. And exiting and restarting the game when observing oddities or after changing settings. It also makes me think he does not always use a clean testbed. The RDR2 problem could be api cache needing to be cleared.
 
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DAPUNISHER

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VirtualLarry said:
Click to expand...
I remember that vid. Dawid is a comedian more than anything else. There's a reason some of his merch are shirts that say things like N00b on them. Watching him build stuff is like watching a monkey hump a football. This video adds nothing to the vram debate IMO. I take that back, it is interesting enough = my bad.
 
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mikeymikec

Lifer
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DAPUNISHER said:
Any particular game being correct does not validate the results of others. RDR2 is not a vram heavy game, it's that simple. It is known to still suffer from memory leaks though, particularly with Vulcan. Being a DIYer with cameras, capture cards, and time to make videos does not make one an expert. Proper testing methodology would have included the vram usage \ process for OSD. And exiting and restarting the game when observing oddities or after changing settings. It also makes me think he does not always use a clean testbed. The RDR2 problem could be api cache needing to be cleared.
Click to expand...
Fair point.
 
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Ranulf

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STE is just unstable overall these days, for some it seems worse with UE5 but it wasnt great with UE4. My 2060S runs the game ok, better than it used to in UE4. I don't remember the settings I use off hand other than I turned on FSR2 which helps keep the fps up with fewer dips. Game doesnt look as good though, washed out more for sure. The latest patch a couple of weeks ago gave me the worst crashes I'd had in the game since I got it at early access release. Out of 6 games, I had 3 crashes. Two of them mid mission.
 
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ZGR

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Oct 26, 2012
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Ranulf said:
STE is just unstable overall these days, for some it seems worse with UE5 but it wasnt great with UE4. My 2060S runs the game ok, better than it used to in UE4. I don't remember the settings I use off hand other than I turned on FSR2 which helps keep the fps up with fewer dips. Game doesnt look as good though, washed out more for sure. The latest patch a couple of weeks ago gave me the worst crashes I'd had in the game since I got it at early access release. Out of 6 games, I had 3 crashes. Two of them mid mission.
Click to expand...

NVIDIA users will periodically crash using FSR for STE, so it is not recommended. I don't crash with DLSS and my friend's 7900 XTX hasn't seen crashes with FSR. I will also crash with RTSS but not with the Nvidia performance overlay.
 
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psolord

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Timorous said:
People will turn settings down obviously. The issue is that in case like TLOU at 1440p a 3060 12GB owner will need to make fewer compromises to get 'playable' fps than the 3060Ti 8GB owner will need to make or in something like Halo Infinite the 3060 12GB won't suffer from missing textures where as an 8GB card at the same texture settings will.
Click to expand...
Oh wow, the usual flag of TLOU again....

I showed you screenshots with textures at high vs ultra, on my 4070ti and that at 4k. There is virtually no difference. At least nothing for a user to be worried about. The cost was a whopping 1.5GBs.

These are gamegpu's findings, at a later patch 6months after the game launched.


At 1440p the 3060ti is at 48fps and the 3060 is 43fps. At 1080p, they are not far either. Granted, this is a lower performance delta, than what these cards usually have, so there is a vram problem here for sure. I mean we have established that. TLOU is one of THESE few games. My question is can this be resolved without causing a serious problem for the end user?

First of all, at 1440p they are both unplayable anyway. They are both going to use correct settings in order to provide an enjoyable experience, since neither is a 1440p card. Maybe the 3060 can retain the ultra preset of the textures, but will drop everything else. And from what I have seen, the textures especially in TLOU is the least affecting graphical element. So what's the point?

If you want, I can make you a 1440p vid on my 3060ti, with correct settings and see how bad it is...

Since you guys are always raising TLOU, I can raise you a new game. The Ghost of Tsushima. Grand AAA title, right? Here is what gamegpu found. Their test section, is the battle with the horse at the beginning, which is quite heavy.


I mean, where do I start? The 3060ti is 35% faster than the 3060 at 1080p. How do you salvage that? It is borderline playable sure, but way more playable than the 3060. How are these 12GBs helping? They are not! Why? Because Nixxes are not idiots. All their games are fine.

At 1440p the delta shrinks to 17%. So what? They are both completely unplayable there. So at 1440p, which neither of these cards are aimed for, the 3060ti would just enable DLSS and drop shadows one tier and would be good to go. The 3060 would still struggle. I mean even the rx6600 is beating it at 1080p, lol. Surely not a vram limitation indication. The good thing for all cards, is that even at medium it looks quite good. I just completed a full 23min run on the GTX 970 and it is, quite good, for the age of the card.

This is Ghost of Tsushima on the age old GTX 970, 1080p, medium preset, 8X AF, fsr3+fg



And this the same location on the 4070ti 4k/dlss/ultra/max AF



I mean sure there is a difference, if you zoom in. It's 1080p fsr vs 4k dlss after all and four generations apart and different tiers too. But the preset itself, is quite good for medium, is it not?
 
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igor_kavinski

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*Dramatic Michael Bay music*

*Multiple helicopters descend over an idyllic beach house in Greece*

*Black ops soldiers in full body bullet-proof outfits with AI enhanced automatic weapons rappel down the helicopters and zero-in on all the entrances*

*They knock on the door multiple times. No one answers. They break the door down and enter the premises. Ground floor empty. Team leader signals to check the first floor*

*They find a lone stallion happily gaming away on a Sandy Bridge machine with headphones on in darkness while a much newer PC sits unpowered in the other corner of the room. The soldiers look at each other in disbelief and one of them gestures "Now that's a looney if I ever saw one!"*

*One of them turns on the lightswitch and PSOLORD turns around frantically and freaks out. "WHO WHAT THE FFFFFFF????? Stand back! Don't come any closer! I know Dung Fu!"

*The soldiers look at each other confused*

PSOLORD screams, "DUNG FU, yo! I smack you in the face with my s***!"

Team leader steps forward, "No need for that. We are here to escort you to the President of the United States".

PSOLORD, "What? WHY ME??? What did I do? I'm not even a US citizen. I don't have any back taxes!".

Team leader, "We have a situation. Some group going by the name of AI_Clowns has stolen all GPUs with more than 8GB VRAM in the US. ALL OF THEM. We don't know how but we suspect multiple governments are involved".

PSOLORD, "So? What I got to do with that? You don't think I'm the mastermind, do you? I've got alibis! Ask AT forum members!"

Team leader, "We are looking to avert an emergency. Before mass hysteria breaks out and people come out on the streets and start rioting, we need you to run Cyberpunk 2077 in 8GB VRAM with 60+ fps on ANY PC. This will allay the fears of the public and they will rest easy knowing that even the best AAA titles can be run with 8GB so there's no reason to panic.".

PSOLORD's eyes tear up, "I've been waiting for this moment all my life! Finally, I get to do something to validate my entire existence!"

Team leader, "We must go now! TIme is of the essence!".

PSOLORD, "I will do it but on one condition".

Team leader, "Name it!".

PSOLORD, "Pass a bill banning the release of any GPU with more than 8GB for the next 20 years! After that, they can release even 200GB GPUs and I won't care. The people will have tasted the sweetness of 8GB!".

Team leader calls the President. After a few moments, he says, "President agrees. This will solve so many problems including global warming and dumping of hardware in landfills due to insufficient VRAM. He's very pleased."

PSOLORD, "8GB 4EVA!".

Soldiers in unison, "8GB 4EVA!".
 
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psolord

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Sep 16, 2009
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igor_kavinski said:
*Dramatic Michael Bay music*

*Multiple helicopters descend over an idyllic beach house in Greece*

*Black ops soldiers in full body bullet-proof outfits with AI enhanced automatic weapons rappel down the helicopters and zero-in on all the entrances*

*They knock on the door multiple times. No one answers. They break the door down and enter the premises. Ground floor empty. Team leader signals to check the first floor*

*They find a lone stallion happily gaming away on a Sandy Bridge machine with headphones on in darkness while a much newer PC sits unpowered in the other corner of the room. The soldiers look at each other in disbelief and one of them gestures "Now that's a looney if I ever saw one!"*

*One of them turns on the lightswitch and PSOLORD turns around frantically and freaks out. "WHO WHAT THE FFFFFFF????? Stand back! Don't come any closer! I know Dung Fu!"

*The soldiers look at each other confused*

PSOLORD screams, "DUNG FU, yo! I smack you in the face with my s***!"

Team leader steps forward, "No need for that. We are here to escort you to the President of the United States".

PSOLORD, "What? WHY ME??? What did I do? I'm not even a US citizen. I don't have any back taxes!".

Team leader, "We have a situation. Some group going by the name of AI_Clowns has stolen all GPUs with more than 8GB VRAM in the US. ALL OF THEM. We don't know how but we suspect multiple governments are involved".

PSOLORD, "So? What I got to do with that? You don't think I'm the mastermind, do you? I've got alibis! Ask AT forum members!"

Team leader, "We are looking to avert an emergency. Before mass hysteria breaks out and people come out on the streets and start rioting, we need you to run Cyberpunk 2077 in 8GB VRAM with 60+ fps on ANY PC. This will allay the fears of the public and they will rest easy knowing that even the best AAA titles can be run with 8GB so there's no reason to panic.".

PSOLORD's eyes tear up, "I've been waiting for this moment all my life! Finally, I get to do something to validate my entire existence!"

Team leader, "We must go now! TIme is of the essence!".

PSOLORD, "I will do it but on one condition".

Team leader, "Name it!".

PSOLORD, "Pass a bill banning the release of any GPU with more than 8GB for the next 20 years! After that, they can release even 200GB GPUs and I won't care. The people will have tasted the sweetness of 8GB!".

Team leader calls the President. After a few moments, he says, "President agrees. This will solve so many problems including global warming and dumping of hardware in landfills due to insufficient VRAM. He's very pleased."

PSOLORD, "8GB 4EVA!".

Soldiers in unison, "8GB 4EVA!".
Click to expand...
This sounds like a good scenario for a UE5 game, where 8GBs would be enough. I hear UE 5.4 has brought quite some improvements, in both cpu and gpu. Maybe it will not be the disaster I expected. Just a little less.

Still I never said 8GBs for eva. I only say they are good enough for their tiers and correct settings and weaker cards with more vram, will go nowhere. See GOT above. Next week Hellblade 2 is coming. It will be one of the same...

Also yes, I love my old systems as much I love my new ones. I'd like to think, that is what being a PC user is all about. This thread however, is all about what PCMR is all about which likes to study settings over 9000. PCMR only as a social title however. A 3060 is not a PCMR card because of its 12GBs, like people think. It's more like a barefoot prince so to speak...
 
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