News Intel Bartlett Lake-S: up to 12P-Core or up to 8P-Core +16E-core

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Markfw

Moderator Emeritus, Elite Member
May 16, 2002
26,982
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Just telling you that the microcode that gave far too high of voltage and fried the chips is not being used any more.

I certainly have no idea if the fundamental silicon has changed or not. Only an Intel insider could verify that. There was a slight bump in frequencies. The specs are the basically the same otherwise.
thank you
 

alcoholbob

Diamond Member
May 24, 2005
6,371
437
126
I RMA's 3 Raptors. First one I ran stock. 2nd and 3rd at really conservative settings and they still started to degrade. By "started to degrade" I mean after a few months they wouldn't run the frequencies/voltages they were running in a stable manner. I remember I was giving Topaz tech support all kinds of hell because Photo AI was suddenly locking up my system, which I thought was due to one of their updates. They kept telling me to check my system stability and I was telling them I'm 100% certain I was stable. Then I backed my frequency down to 4GHz and all of the problems went away. I sheepishly went back and told them they were right. Topaz Video AI is a good application to test stability by the way. Once I figured this out I proceeded to get the RMA going on my third and last Raptor Lake CPU and seriously started to consider a Zen 5 rig...

I never ran them over 5.5GHz and never overclocked or ran over 85C. I could have increased voltage to maintain performance and maybe they would have "stabilized." Or maybe not. I didn't want to find out. After three strikes I retired the Raptor train and moved to a 9950X. Just running stock and no issues, no fiddling with the BIOS, load lines, and endless tweaking to hopefully find a configuration that will last under high stress rendering and other stuff I do a lot of. While I don't overclock I am "hard" on CPU's I think. I'll be rendering out a video in Vegas Pro while running PureRaw to process photos while at the same time processing them with Photoshop, running a tv stream in the background, and flipping through websites all at the same time. I expect my computer to be responsive and stable the entire time. I work in a very "bursty" manner. When I sit down, it's "go" time and I don't want to work around my computer. I want IT to work around me.

Perhaps I got bad samples or just wasn't good at set up or didn't have good enough cooling, could be on me. I'm about 5 months on the 9950X and so far so good, performance is better and I've spent literally zero time tweaking. I think I increased TDP, decreased TDP, and then settled on stock. AMD seems to have found the sweet spot so I'll stick with it.

It seems like all of the "fixes" for Raptor and the like are not silicon fixes but more tweaks to the BIOS. After my experience I am wary especially when there is such a well-performing and cost effective alternative available. I am a fan of CPU's. I don't care who makes them. It took me A LOT to give AMD a try after literally lifetime of Intel Only Inside for me. Part of me was supporting Intel because I don't want them to fail. I want them to succeed... and I want AMD to succeed as well. But eventually I was wasting too much time investigating, tweaking, and trying to figure things out. In the beginning it was fun but it became a chore.

Seems like Arrow Lake isn't having the same issues and performs very well in a lot of the apps I use though. I'll take a good look at both AMD and Intel when it's time to upgrade again. I am still under the impression that there is nothing inherently wrong with Raptor Lake silicon, Intel just got too aggressive with boosting frequencies and they are having a hard time walking it back due to the published specs, which they obviously don't want to revise so they are dancing all around trying to maintain the specs in theory but not in practice. That is my theory anyway.

The stock voltages are just horrendous. When I got my 14900K was around when the 0x12B BIOS hit and the default voltages were 1.52V+ Vmax values. After using Buildzoid's suggested undervolting settings I'm running a Vmax of around 1.26V. Huge difference in temps, and it increased performance as well.

What's interesting is TSMC stuff seems binned a lot better. For example most Arrow Lake CPUs have very little undervolting headroom, which means they are sent out of the factory with more or less the "correct" voltages without a whole lot of headroom. Some people were speculating that Intel is just shoving silicon out the door without doing much to validate it...
 
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511

Golden Member
Jul 12, 2024
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Then how ocme Raptor Lake with similar deisgn is so much better with latency and thus gaming?

Is it due to topology difference where they have e-cores between P cores on Arrow Lake rather than all 8 P cores in a row then the e-core clusters on ADL and RPL.

An also due to the fact maybe even ore so that the IMC is not on the ring but a separate tile unlike Raptor and Alder?
The NOC Fabric connecting the dies and the slow L3 is the issue also nothing will beat a monolithic die in terms of latency but different kind of packing affect latency differently.
AMD's current cheap packing affects the latency to a large extent but foveros/Cowos type of packing doesn't to that extent.
 

Wolverine2349

Senior member
Oct 9, 2022
465
154
86
The NOC Fabric connecting the dies and the slow L3 is the issue also nothing will beat a monolithic die in terms of latency but different kind of packing affect latency differently.
AMD's current cheap packing affects the latency to a large extent but foveros/Cowos type of packing doesn't to that extent.

Are you saying AMD using foreros.Cowos type is not as bad for latency as what Intel used for Arrow Lake? But its still much worse than Intel's monolithic dies like Raptor and Alder Lake for latency.

AMD can just mask it with the staked cache which caused the X3D CPUs to be released for gaming?
 

511

Golden Member
Jul 12, 2024
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Are you saying AMD using foreros.Cowos type is not as bad for latency as what Intel used for Arrow Lake? But its still much worse than Intel's monolithic dies like Raptor and Alder Lake for latency.
No AMDs current packing is cheap packing that any OSAT can do and CowoS is TSMCs IP while Foveros is Intel's and yes there is no type advanced packing can catch up to Monolithic Die Latency and bandwidth at least till now.
AMD can just mask it with the staked cache which caused the X3D CPUs to be released for gaming?
Yeah the stacked cache is pretty good it uses Hybrid Bonding a form advanced packing as well.
 

Wolverine2349

Senior member
Oct 9, 2022
465
154
86
No AMDs current packing is cheap packing that any OSAT can do and CowoS is TSMCs IP while Foveros is Intel's and yes there is no type advanced packing can catch up to Monolithic Die Latency and bandwidth at least till now.

Yeah the stacked cache is pretty good it uses Hybrid Bonding a form advanced packing as well.

So are you saying Intel's packing of Arrow Lake CPUs is better than AMD's Ryzen 5000-9000 CPUs??

Its just that Intel screwed up with their implementation of Arrow Lake with tiles and IMC being separate tile rather than on ring and their L3 cache implementation making L3 cache so slow which is why its performance is so much worse in latency sensitive tasks like gaming compared to Intel's own prior Gen RPL??
 

511

Golden Member
Jul 12, 2024
1,913
1,717
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So are you saying Intel's packing of Arrow Lake CPUs is better than AMD's Ryzen 5000-9000 CPUs??

Its just that Intel screwed up with their implementation of Arrow Lake with tiles and IMC being separate tile rather than on ring and their L3 cache implementation making L3 cache so slow which is why its performance is so much worse in latency sensitive tasks like gaming compared to Intel's own prior Gen RPL??

Precisely what I am saying
 
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