Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

Tigerick · Aug 22, 2022

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.

Comparison of upcoming Intel's U-series CPU: Core Ultra 100U, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

Model	Code-Name	Date	TDP	Node	Tiles	Main Tile	CPU	LP E-Core	LLC	GPU	Xe-cores
Core Ultra 100U	Meteor Lake	Q4 2023	15 - 57 W	Intel 4 + N5 + N6	4	tCPU	2P + 8E	2	12 MB	Intel Graphics	4
?	Lunar Lake	Q4 2024	17 - 30 W	N3B + N6	2	CPU + GPU & IMC	4P + 4E	0	12 MB	Arc	8
?	Panther Lake	Q1 2026 ?	?	Intel 18A + N3E	3	CPU + MC	4P + 8E	4	?	Arc	12

Comparison of die size of Each Tile of Meteor Lake, Arrow Lake, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

	Meteor Lake	Arrow Lake (N3B)	Lunar Lake	Panther Lake
Platform	Mobile H/U Only	Desktop & Mobile H&HX	Mobile U Only	Mobile H
Process Node	Intel 4	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	Intel 18A
Date	Q4 2023	Desktop-Q4-2024 H&HX-Q1-2025	Q4 2024	Q1 2026 ?
Full Die	6P + 8P	8P + 16E	4P + 4E	4P + 8E
LLC	24 MB	36 MB ?	12 MB	?
tCPU	66.48
tGPU	44.45
SoC	96.77
IOE	44.45
Total	252.15

Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake

As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)

511 · Apr 21, 2025

AMDK11 said:
Question for 100 points. Is PantherLake a new core or slightly improved or the same as LionCove? Is NovaLake a different core than the one in Panther? Good question.

Panther Lake has cougar cove which is a Lion Cove+ with various fixes including different RTL and it is slightly smaller than Lion cove with 5-8% IPC Improvement on 18A.

Nova Lake and Diamond Rapids contains panther cove or coyote cove(renamed due to confusion with client product Panther Lake) which is multi sourced from 18AP and N2. This is a brand new core with APX/AVX10.2 and bunch of other extensions and stuff. DC panther cove has HT

AMDK11 · Apr 21, 2025

511 said:
Panther Lake has cougar cove which is a Lion Cove+ with various fixes including different RTL and it is slightly smaller than Lion cove with 5-8% IPC Improvement on 18A.

Nova Lake and Diamond Rapids contains panther cove or coyote cove(renamed due to confusion with client product Panther Lake) which is multi sourced from 18AP and N2. This is a brand new core with APX/AVX10.2 and bunch of other extensions and stuff. DC panther cove has HT

NovaLace is supposedly CuguarCove from what the P-Core engineer said recently. As for NovaLake, I assumed it was a new core but I wasn't sure about PantherLake but I also suspected it was something like LionCove or its improvement.

dullard · Apr 21, 2025

OneEng2 said:
I am very eager to see how 18A performs.

The latest that I've seen is this:

Intel claims that its 18A fabrication process delivers 25% more performance at the same voltage (1.1V) and complexity, as well as 36% lower power at the same frequency and voltage of 1.1V for a standard Arm core sub-block compared to the same block fabricated on Intel 3 process technology. At a lower voltage (0.75V), Intel 18A provides 18% higher performance and 38% lower power. In addition, 18A consistently achieves 0.72X area scaling compared to Intel 3.

https://www.tomshardware.com/tech-i...y-more-performance-lower-power-higher-density

It wouldn't be too hard to extrapolate from there.

Fjodor2001 · Apr 21, 2025

Is there any known CPU from AMD to counter the 52 core NVL-S CPU?

Also, do we expect the high core count versions of NVL-S to keep idle power consumption as low as on 285K, or will it suffer from having more tiles/CCDs like Zen5 does in that regard?

Markfw · Apr 21, 2025

Fjodor2001 said:
Is there any known CPU from AMD to counter the 54 core NVL-S CPU?

Also, do we expect the high core count versions of NVL-S to keep idle power consumption as low as on 285K, or will it suffer from having more tiles/CCDs like Zen5 does in that regard?

I don't know what a nvl-s cpu is, but either my 64 core Genoas or my 64 core Turin I am sure would compete.

MS_AT · Apr 21, 2025

Fjodor2001 said:
Is there any known CPU from AMD to counter the 54 core NVL-S CPU?

Also, do we expect the high core count versions of NVL-S to keep idle power consumption as low as on 285K, or will it suffer from having more tiles/CCDs like Zen5 does in that regard?

Strix Halo solved the problem for AMD. No reason Intel should have the same problem even if using multiple compute dies.

Fjodor2001 · Apr 21, 2025

Markfw said:
I don't know what a nvl-s cpu is, but either my 64 core Genoas or my 64 core Turin I am sure would compete.

Now you know:

Intel "Nova Lake-S" CPUs to use LGA 1954 Socket, 24 x 25 mm Chipset

Based on recent shipping manifests that point to custom test hardware for its next "Nova Lake‑S" processors, Intel seems to be gearing up for a big desktop platform update. According to documents obtained by NBD.ltd, Intel isn't moving full motherboards yet. Instead, it's sending out mechanical...

www.techpowerup.com

52 cores though, and on regular desktop socket. So not comparable to Genoa/Turin which are server CPUs. So the question is what AMD has planned to counter it on regular desktop socket.

Fjodor2001 · Apr 21, 2025

MS_AT said:
Strix Halo solved the problem for AMD. No reason Intel should have the same problem even if using multiple compute dies.

You mean Strix Halo solved the high idle power consumption problem with Zen5? But that was only up to 16C.

Or will the same solution work for AMD if they intend to provide core counts close to the 52C NVL-S?

coercitiv · Apr 21, 2025

Fjodor2001 said:
Also, do we expect the high core count versions of NVL-S to keep idle power consumption as low as on 285K, or will it suffer from having more tiles/CCDs like Zen5 does in that regard?

Zen CPU have high idle power consumption due to their IOD interconnect. Intel has a different approach, as you should have observed from MTL and ARL.

Fjodor2001 said:
You mean Strix Halo solved the high idle power consumption problem with Zen5? But that was only up to 16C.

Core count is of little relevance, idle power is influenced by interconnect tech first. On mobile, AMD moved from 8 to 16 cores in one generation and their idle power went down, not up.

MS_AT · Apr 21, 2025

Fjodor2001 said:
You mean Strix Halo solved the high idle power consumption problem with Zen5? But that was only up to 16C.

It's the same setup as desktop, 2 CCDs and 1 IOD. They replaced high speed serial interconnect with lower speed "sea of wires", the same idea that drives HBM power savings vs GDDRx. Since new CCDs will have 12 cores, they should have the same power draw for 24 cores total. Now if you they add more dies, this will push power up, but it should still be better than current 30W idle on desktop Zen5 parts, seeing Halo can idle in ~8W range. Assuming linear scaling it would be 16W for 48 cores but I am making this up

Markfw · Apr 21, 2025

Fjodor2001 said:
Now you know:

Intel "Nova Lake-S" CPUs to use LGA 1954 Socket, 24 x 25 mm Chipset

Based on recent shipping manifests that point to custom test hardware for its next "Nova Lake‑S" processors, Intel seems to be gearing up for a big desktop platform update. According to documents obtained by NBD.ltd, Intel isn't moving full motherboards yet. Instead, it's sending out mechanical...

www.techpowerup.com

52 cores though, and on regular desktop socket. So not comparable to Genoa/Turin which are server CPUs. So the question is what AMD has planned to counter it on regular desktop socket.

n you say "threadripper". Since I have multiple of these in my house using home desktop cases, it qualifies right there.

eek2121 · Apr 21, 2025

Fjodor2001 said:
Now you know:

Intel "Nova Lake-S" CPUs to use LGA 1954 Socket, 24 x 25 mm Chipset

Based on recent shipping manifests that point to custom test hardware for its next "Nova Lake‑S" processors, Intel seems to be gearing up for a big desktop platform update. According to documents obtained by NBD.ltd, Intel isn't moving full motherboards yet. Instead, it's sending out mechanical...

www.techpowerup.com

52 cores though, and on regular desktop socket. So not comparable to Genoa/Turin which are server CPUs. So the question is what AMD has planned to counter it on regular desktop socket.

I find it hard to believe that this will be a desktop part. 52 cores at 230W = 4.42W for core on average. Possibly an HEDT part, if it even drops. It doesn't make sense in terms of economics or power/performance. The math also doesn't work out in terms of node shrinks. Sure, they can juice the power limits, but they have been burned by throwing power at the problem several times now, so I will be surprised if they try that one again, especially with how much money they are losing on the 14xxx/13xxx stuff.

I can see them staying at 24, or moving to 32 cores, but above that? Much more money for very little gain.

As AMD appears to be moving to 24 cores on the desktop, 32 cores would be the safe bet for a non-HEDT based Intel part. Of course, Intel could definitely drop an HEDT 52 core part, and if they execute properly there, they'd eat AMD alive. I'm actually hoping that is the actual case. Intel: give me a reason to own an Intel chip again, please.

Markfw · Apr 21, 2025

eek2121 said:
Intel: give me a reason to own an Intel chip again, please.

Quoted since this is the part I agree with fully !

edit: BTW clarifications. at least 16 core, same or lower power as 9950x, and uses avx-512 to the same extent as the 9950x. No shortcomings to that chip, but better somewhere.

poke01 · Apr 21, 2025

eek2121 said:
I find it hard to believe that this will be a desktop part. 52 cores at 230W = 4.42W for core on average. Possibly an HEDT part, if it even drops. It doesn't make sense in terms of economics or power/performance. The math also doesn't work out in terms of node shrinks. Sure, they can juice the power limits, but they have been burned by throwing power at the problem several times now, so I will be surprised if they try that one again, especially with how much money they are losing on the 14xxx/13xxx stuff.

I can see them staying at 24, or moving to 32 cores, but above that? Much more money for very little gain.

As AMD appears to be moving to 24 cores on the desktop, 32 cores would be the safe bet for a non-HEDT based Intel part. Of course, Intel could definitely drop an HEDT 52 core part, and if they execute properly there, they'd eat AMD alive. I'm actually hoping that is the actual case. Intel: give me a reason to own an Intel chip again, please.

You will be waiting a long time especially for gaming and server needs. AMD rules this space now.

OneEng2 · Apr 21, 2025

Fjodor2001 said:
Is there any known CPU from AMD to counter the 54 core NVL-S CPU?

The standard Zen 6 desktop will likely top out at 24c/48t (2 x 12c CCD). Beyond that, I believe that more memory bandwidth will be needed. AMD's solution for higher bandwidth is to make a multichannel desktop for HPC (Threadripper). I suspect that this is how AMD will compete with the 52 core Nova Lake. I also wonder how Intel intends to feed such a monster?

It doesn't seem cost effective to create so many cores for the masses, and I am guessing it can't be fed with just dual channel memory either.

Markfw said:
n you say "threadripper". Since I have multiple of these in my house using home desktop cases, it qualifies right there.

Ding ding ding!

eek2121 said:
I find it hard to believe that this will be a desktop part. 52 cores at 230W = 4.42W for core on average. Possibly an HEDT part, if it even drops. It doesn't make sense in terms of economics or power/performance. The math also doesn't work out in terms of node shrinks. Sure, they can juice the power limits, but they have been burned by throwing power at the problem several times now, so I will be surprised if they try that one again, especially with how much money they are losing on the 14xxx/13xxx stuff.

I can see them staying at 24, or moving to 32 cores, but above that? Much more money for very little gain.

As AMD appears to be moving to 24 cores on the desktop, 32 cores would be the safe bet for a non-HEDT based Intel part. Of course, Intel could definitely drop an HEDT 52 core part, and if they execute properly there, they'd eat AMD alive. I'm actually hoping that is the actual case. Intel: give me a reason to own an Intel chip again, please.

Can they feed a 52 core chip? If they give it more memory channels, then it isn't really a consumer desktop chip any more (and it would be priced accordingly). It would be a Threadripper competitor..... which I believe it may well be.

There is also cost to consider. Can Intel really afford to build a 52 core chip for the masses on 18A? Seems like an awful lot of money to be spending on all those cores that most people (90%) will never use.

511 · Apr 21, 2025

poke01 said:
You will be waiting a long time especially for gaming and server needs. AMD rules this space now.

Not server with GNR there is very dependence on your workflow gaming is X3D or nothing 🤣.

Markfw said:
n you say "threadripper". Since I have multiple of these in my house using home desktop cases, it qualifies right there.

In the end it will come to price if they are selling this 52 Core chip at $1000 I think it would be a great buy especially with the bumped up memory spec we will get with NVL not to mention a 52 Core chip with APX/AVX-512 if they don't mess up.

Fjodor2001 said:
Is there any known CPU from AMD to counter the 54 core NVL-S CPU?

Also, do we expect the high core count versions of NVL-S to keep idle power consumption as low as on 285K, or will it suffer from having more tiles/CCDs like Zen5 does in that regard?

There is 4LPE Cores in arctic wolf for exactly this purpose.

Markfw · Apr 21, 2025

511 said:
Not server with GNR there is very dependence on your workflow gaming is X3D or nothing 🤣.

In the end it will come to price if they are selling this 52 Core chip at $1000 I think it would be a great buy especially with the bumped up memory spec we will get with NVL not to mention a 52 Core chip with APX/AVX-512 if they don't mess up.

There is 4LPE Cores in arctic wolf for exactly this purpose.

If Intel sells a decent 52 core chip with at least 6 memory channels, I will buy it in a second. The chances of this happening ? ZERO

511 · Apr 21, 2025

Markfw said:
If Intel sells a decent 52 core chip with at least 6 memory channels, I will buy it in a second. The chances of this happening ? ZERO

Chances of Six memory channels is zero but
You should look at memory speed as well along with Channels.
A good example a 7980X(64 Core) has 4 Memory Channels with 5200MT/s is roughly 166GB/s with Nova Lake I think they would bump up to 7200MT/s or 8000MT/s DDR5 which would roughly translate to 117/128 GB/s approx 77% of bandwidth of the thread ripper that is before any OC.
I would not be surprised with people breaching 10000+ MT/s and equalling the bandwidth of the threadripper

fastandfurious6 · Apr 21, 2025

here's why zen6 (tsmc n2) will eat intel A18:

Turin (Zen 5c) is ~20% faster than Intel 3 xeon (AFAIK the only intel 3 product?)
Underlined the models with same core count (128)

mark my words: basically intel A18 will be catching up with zen 5 on all segments
mobile
desktop
server

A18 maybe ~10% faster than zen5 in some cases but wont compete with zen6

Fjodor2001 · Apr 21, 2025

Markfw said:
n you say "threadripper". Since I have multiple of these in my house using home desktop cases, it qualifies right there.

That’s high-end desktop which is a much more expensive platform and on a different socket than regular Zen5, i.e. not regular desktop. So not really comparable, since Nova Lake S will be on the regular LGA 1954 desktop socket according to the article I linked to previously.

Markfw · Apr 22, 2025

Fjodor2001 said:
That’s high-end desktop which is a much more expensive platform and on a different socket than regular Zen5, i.e. not regular desktop. So not really comparable, since Nova Lake S will be on the regular LGA 1954 desktop socket according to the article I linked to previously.

actually, I think you are missing the point. What I have uses regular SP5, its all real servers. The motherboards I buy just fit desktop cases. They are regular production too. Look up supermicro H13SSL-N its even at desktop prices, Fits Genoa and Turin processors. I have 9 of them.

MS_AT · Apr 22, 2025

511 said:
A good example a 7980X(64 Core) has 4 Memory Channels with 5200MT/s is roughly 166GB/s with Nova Lake I think they would bump up to 7200MT/s or 8000MT/s DDR5 which would roughly translate to 117/128 GB/s approx 77% of bandwidth of the thread ripper that is before any OC.

To be fair I would expect Zen5 TR chips to support 6000MT/s what gives 192GB/s. The problem with 8000MT/s+ parts is that they are more expensive, harder to setup if you want to scale capacity. I mean it would look a bit silly to have 12000MT/s 32GB memory with 52 core chip But who knows, maybe 2DPC at 8000MT/s+ will be easier to achieve next gen.

coercitiv · Apr 22, 2025

MS_AT said:
I mean it would look a bit silly to have 12000MT/s 32GB memory with 52 core chip

This happens when one invents a solution in search of a problem: the high core count CPU with low idle power and high speed dual dimm configuration. This time the 100W TDP target is optional.

Personally I hope their intent is to bridge towards the HEDT market, but this will obviously come at a higher price. Some professionals are looking for something not quite as expensive as HEDT.

DrMrLordX · Apr 22, 2025

OneEng2 said:
Can they feed a 52 core chip?

Probably not, but they could always resurrect triple channel topology from the Nehalem days.

511 · Apr 22, 2025

coercitiv said:
This happens when one invents a solution in search of a problem: the high core count CPU with low idle power and high speed dual dimm configuration. This time the 100W TDP target is optional.

i think this part is mostly solved in terms of their initial specs LP-E cores for light task i think with proper scheduling NVL HX laptop can easily be in the same league as Strix Point/ARL-H laptop in terms of battery life. For High SPeed DIMM we are getting a new platorm it's totally expected on past history and with CU-DIMM we will get 8000 MT/s and High Core Count is expected. This time they planned very nicely lets hope they don't F*** up the implementation part.

coercitiv said:
Personally I hope their intent is to bridge towards the HEDT market, but this will obviously come at a higher price. Some professionals are looking for something not quite as expensive as HEDT.

Yeah same but i think it will still be cheaper to buy the newer part.

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