Discussion Apple Silicon SoC thread

Eug · Nov 10, 2020

M1
5 nm
Unified memory architecture - LP-DDR4
16 billion transistors

8-core CPU

4 high-performance cores
192 KB instruction cache
128 KB data cache
Shared 12 MB L2 cache

4 high-efficiency cores
128 KB instruction cache
64 KB data cache
Shared 4 MB L2 cache
(Apple claims the 4 high-effiency cores alone perform like a dual-core Intel MacBook Air)

8-core iGPU (but there is a 7-core variant, likely with one inactive core)
128 execution units
Up to 24576 concurrent threads
2.6 Teraflops
82 Gigatexels/s
41 gigapixels/s

16-core neural engine
Secure Enclave
USB 4

Products:
$999 ($899 edu) 13" MacBook Air (fanless) - 18 hour video playback battery life
$699 Mac mini (with fan)
$1299 ($1199 edu) 13" MacBook Pro (with fan) - 20 hour video playback battery life

Memory options 8 GB and 16 GB. No 32 GB option (unless you go Intel).

It should be noted that the M1 chip in these three Macs is the same (aside from GPU core number). Basically, Apple is taking the same approach which these chips as they do the iPhones and iPads. Just one SKU (excluding the X variants), which is the same across all iDevices (aside from maybe slight clock speed differences occasionally).

EDIT:

M1 Pro 8-core CPU (6+2), 14-core GPU
M1 Pro 10-core CPU (8+2), 14-core GPU
M1 Pro 10-core CPU (8+2), 16-core GPU
M1 Max 10-core CPU (8+2), 24-core GPU
M1 Max 10-core CPU (8+2), 32-core GPU

M1 Pro and M1 Max discussion here:

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M1 Ultra discussion here:

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M2 discussion here:

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Second Generation 5 nm
Unified memory architecture - LPDDR5, up to 24 GB and 100 GB/s
20 billion transistors

8-core CPU

4 high-performance cores
192 KB instruction cache
128 KB data cache
Shared 16 MB L2 cache

4 high-efficiency cores
128 KB instruction cache
64 KB data cache
Shared 4 MB L2 cache

10-core iGPU (but there is an 8-core variant)
3.6 Teraflops

16-core neural engine
Secure Enclave
USB 4

Hardware acceleration for 8K h.264, h.264, ProRes

M3 Family discussion here:

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M4 Family discussion here:

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name99 · Apr 4, 2025

mvprod123 said:
This is what Apple's GPU lacks.
David Huang wrote about this in his blog.

Apple统一内存适合运行LLM？理想很丰满，现实很骨感 | David Huang's Blog

Lack is a strong word. Apple does matrix mul in the GPU by using a permute network to rearrange data as required. The patent is described in my GOU volume.
The cost is a permute network (which can be used for many other things) but you save area. You lose the capacity for weird formats like FP8 unless you want to add those to all datapath, but it’s unclear whether that’s an optimal solution as opposed to the path ANE is going down.

LightningZ71 · Apr 4, 2025

fastandfurious6 said:
are these real world benefits? not just theory

the cost of 5G outweighs the benefits. think almost trillions implementing it globally. should have been skipped for 6G or 7G where mobile data is a real replacement for wired. 5g is not

Yes, they are real world benefits. The question is, did the cell networks do the proper background work to make sure that all of those benefits are experienced by the end customer?

I have a site that I support that is out in the sticks. There is a cell tower that serves the area, but it is a considerable distance away. It used to be a 4G tower that would allow me to send text messages, occasionally make phone calls provided atmospherics cooperated, and sometimes got me enough data throughput to move small files and send small, low res pictures. It got upgraded to a 5G tower a year ago or so. Now, I can get a couple of bars of signal and see the radio negotiate decent speeds, often in the 100s of Mbps. However, I can't ever achieve an actual data transfer rate higher than 1.5Mbps. My best guess is that the backhaul is probably the equivalent of a T-1 connection, maybe two, one for data and another for control.

Has that improved my experience? Yes, I get more consistent connections and higher data throughput than before. Is it drastic? That depends on your definition. Ideally, I should get much higher data throughput. In reality, it's still worlds better than before.

I have an office downtown. Before 5G, data throughput on wireless was highly susceptible to saturation and massive slowdowns. Looking at the raw side of the connections, I was seeing the radio having to deal with a lot of lots of sharing overhead with the tower. They upgraded it to 5G and now, the radio is doing much better with handling the saturation and overall throughput is much higher. Again, not night and day, but an overall improvement in usability.

It's all highly situational.

poke01 · Apr 4, 2025

name99 said:
Lack is a strong word. Apple does matrix mul in the GPU by using a permute network to rearrange data as required. The patent is described in my GOU volume.
The cost is a permute network (which can be used for many other things) but you save area. You lose the capacity for weird formats like FP8 unless you want to add those to all datapath, but it’s unclear whether that’s an optimal solution as opposed to the path ANE is going down.

Well the current GPU isn’t good enough

Nothingness · Apr 4, 2025

poke01 said:
Well the current GPU isn’t good enough

Honest question from someone who is not knowledgeable of the GPU subject: does it matter that much that your GPU doesn't shine at random (type) matrix computations when you have other IPs that can do the work (NPU, SME block), reducing the need to rely on GPGPU?

Geranium · Apr 4, 2025

Interesting test. Battery life dosent look that much better when using one of the proper browser.

Also a interesting thing, looks like most reviewers are using two different browser to test battery life between MacOS and Windows without mentioning it properly.

Computerbase : https://www.computerbase.de/artikel/notebooks/apple-macbook-air-m4-test.91907/seite-3

poke01 · Apr 4, 2025

F16C and BMI instructions added to Rosetta 2 in macOS 15.4

Doug S · Apr 4, 2025

LightningZ71 said:
My best guess is that the backhaul is probably the equivalent of a T-1 connection, maybe two, one for data and another for control.

Running underground fiber out to a tower can potentially run into all sorts of roadblocks, while upgrading the tower's antennas only requires the antenna hardware and the crew to become available in that location so it is far less dependent on external factors. Heck they might be waiting on some street construction project that the city pushed back, that kind of stuff can fall years behind schedule (though spending big money can usually get around it, but that's not worth it for an individual tower unless that tower is in a very important spot)

So it is easy to imagine they simply had the antenna upgrade ready before the backhaul upgrade. It wouldn't make sense to upgrade LTE to 5G if they were going to leave it on T1.

Doug S · Apr 4, 2025

johnsonwax said:
Securing wifi is hard because there's no SIM equivalent, so you have this per-user IT overhead that is unsustainable. In the case of stadiums it was trying to displace wifi, in part because of the security arrangement, but in part because TMobile wasn't making money off of the wifi, but it is off the 5G. So some of it was just a way to capture someone else's revenue, rather than a benefit to users.

But in the larger space of not caring about T-Mobile's top line revenue goals, it wasn't solving a problem, because wifi was in theory there already solving it. In terms of 'what problems does this solve that other technologies don't solve' there were some ideas, but to my knowledge none ever got implemented.

Sure but then you need to have all the equipment include SIMs and until eSIM arrived on the scene (and no idea whether it has made it into the kind of gear you find on a factory floor) it was at least as big of a management headache as having to touch all the equipment to implement proper wifi security.

johnsonwax · Apr 4, 2025

Geranium said:
Interesting test. Battery life dosent look that much better when using one of the proper browser.

Also a interesting thing, looks like most reviewers are using two different browser to test battery life between MacOS and Windows without mentioning it properly.

Computerbase : https://www.computerbase.de/artikel/notebooks/apple-macbook-air-m4-test.91907/seite-3

View attachment 121336

Why would anyone expect much difference in browser when streaming Youtube? Apart from support of various codecs and maybe utilizing system APIs which could impact decode efficiency, there's not much 'browser' going on in such a test. Most of the efficiency in browsers is in their JS implementations and memory/process handling around multiple tabs. I'm kind of shocked it's even that different.

johnsonwax · Apr 4, 2025

Doug S said:
Sure but then you need to have all the equipment include SIMs and until eSIM arrived on the scene (and no idea whether it has made it into the kind of gear you find on a factory floor) it was at least as big of a management headache as having to touch all the equipment to implement proper wifi security.

No, I mean, if you have someone sharing kiddie porn over WiFi, that's a you problem. If you have someone sharing it over 5G, that's a them problem. That's what the SIM does for you legally. Everything derives from that. If you want to secure your wifi, you need to do some form of device traceback in place of the SIM (which the carriers can do, but the GB Packers cannot) and/or account management.

Doug S · Apr 5, 2025

johnsonwax said:
No, I mean, if you have someone sharing kiddie porn over WiFi, that's a you problem. If you have someone sharing it over 5G, that's a them problem. That's what the SIM does for you legally. Everything derives from that. If you want to secure your wifi, you need to do some form of device traceback in place of the SIM (which the carriers can do, but the GB Packers cannot) and/or account management.

A lot of corporations are deploying private 5G, so it is the same as wifi.

Besides if a corporation has such poor control of who can use their corporate networks that there is child porn being transferred on it, they have much bigger issues than the child porn itself.

johnsonwax · Apr 5, 2025

Doug S said:
A lot of corporations are deploying private 5G, so it is the same as wifi.

Besides if a corporation has such poor control of who can use their corporate networks that there is child porn being transferred on it, they have much bigger issues than the child porn itself.

Buddy, you're the one who brought up stadiums as a use case. That's a corporate owned deployment designed to be used by the general public that is impossible to secure. Don't go moving the goalposts on us now.

And I came out of higher education which had a particularly fraught environment of highly secure networks all the way down to public ones, and yes, the early days of public wifi at our school would have randos coming onto campus, tipping up an FTP server and advertising it for child porn. That was a problem we had to deal with for a while. We also hosted public and private cellular networks and there was no liability to us on the public cellular networks because of the SIM - law enforcement knew whose door to knock on.

FangBLade · Apr 19, 2025

Henry swagger said:
Apple teaching intel and amd how deliver performance and efficiency.. apple is next level in core design

You haven't been very active since Intel sank

Eug · Apr 21, 2025

96 Mac minis in a cluster

https://twitter.com/x/status/1913199865925956020

https://www.reddit.com/r/mac/comments/1k2m0rt/thats_a_lot_of_mac_minis

johnsonwax · Apr 21, 2025

Eug said:
96 Mac minis in a cluster

Nice to see the old ways haven't been completely forgotten. $1000 19" rack? How about an $89 wire shelf from Walmart and a bucket of power strips?

StinkyPinky · Apr 21, 2025

That's nothing. I had a rack of Intel NUC's and it melted my wire frame shelf and then melted through the floor. They're part of the inner core of the planet now.

Doug S · Apr 21, 2025

So he spent maybe $100K in Mac Minis depending on the model, but he's put them in $100 wire rack shelving?

eek2121 · Apr 21, 2025

Doug S said:
A lot of corporations are deploying private 5G, so it is the same as wifi.

Besides if a corporation has such poor control of who can use their corporate networks that there is child porn being transferred on it, they have much bigger issues than the child porn itself.

I assume you aren't from the US? In the US, 5G refers to specific spectrum bands, which must be licensed. Those bands are limited, and the government oversees it all. I don't know of any business doing 5G because the cost would be absurdly high...oh and private 5G even localized isn't a thing due to various other regulations.

Granted I'm not an expert in this field, but I know enough.

I know it could and/or probably is a thing in the rest of the world, however it isn't here in the US, to my knowledge.

I am unsure why this made it into the replies anyway. Apparently, the forum software can only remember reading positions of so many posts. I will have to remember that for the custom forum stack I'm writing. 🤣

johnsonwax · Apr 21, 2025

Doug S said:
So he spent maybe $100K in Mac Minis depending on the model, but he's put them in $100 wire rack shelving?

In fairness, they aren't particularly well suited to a 19" rack either. For $100 you can get a mount for 3 M4 minis in 2U. So 2 racks, plus another $3K in mounts. Another $5K isn't huge, but not nothing either.

mikegg · Apr 22, 2025

Eug said:
96 Mac minis in a cluster

https://twitter.com/x/status/1913199865925956020

https://www.reddit.com/r/mac/comments/1k2m0rt/thats_a_lot_of_mac_minis

Looks like the Macs are being used as VMs for developers or as build machines.

A lot of companies rent Mac Mini VMs from AWS for their developers.

Apple should really have their own Mac rental cloud in my opinion. Imagine being able to rent the power of an M3 Ultra or M5 Extreme directly from Apple's cloud.

Eug · Apr 22, 2025

mikegg said:
Looks like the Macs are being used as VMs for developers or as build machines.

A lot of companies rent Mac Mini VMs from AWS for their developers.

Apple should really have their own Mac rental cloud in my opinion. Imagine being able to rent the power of an M3 Ultra or M5 Extreme directly from Apple's cloud.

From one of the comments:

For those who are interested, this is a cluster for a brazilian company called Higher Order Co.
They build HVM and Bend, a parallel runtime and language.

Higher Order Company

We're the HOC, a tech startup revolutionizing computing with massively parallel runtimes and processors using our HVM runtime and Bend programming language.

higherorderco.com

mvprod123 · Apr 22, 2025

Apple C1 analysis
Source: https://eetimes.itmedia.co.jp/ee/articles/2504/21/news030.html#utm_term=share_sp
Translated from the Japanese

Apple Launches Its Own Modem: Tracing the Origins of “C1”

Today, one of the most important components in electronic devices is the wireless communication chip (and chipsets). Without them, social networking and web browsing are impossible. In-car systems are also increasingly relying on data received over networks, such as maps or music. This is especially true for smartphones, which use multiple types of wireless communication. Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, and NFC (Near Field Communication) have long been essential in everyday life, and mobile networks like 4G and 5G have become part of social infrastructure.

Among these essential components, the terminal-side modem for wide-area data communication is only manufactured by a few companies. On the general consumer market, major players include the U.S.-based Qualcomm, Taiwan’s MediaTek, and China’s UNISOC. Huawei and Samsung Electronics also have their own 5G modems, but they use them in their own devices rather than offering them for sale. Samsung, for example, supplies its modems to the Google Pixel series.

Apple has switched modem suppliers several times over the years: from Infineon Technologies → Intel → Qualcomm → back to Intel → and again to Qualcomm. These modems have powered devices like the iPhone and iPads with built-in cellular modems.

The Evolution of iPhone Modems

Starting with the iPhone 12 in 2020 — Apple’s first model to support 5G — the company has been using Qualcomm modems. The iPhone 16 / 16 Pro, released in September 2024, is equipped with Qualcomm’s Snapdragon X71 modem.

However, in February 2025, Apple released the iPhone 16e, which features Apple’s first proprietary 5G modem, the Apple C1, instead of a Qualcomm modem. This article discusses the iPhone 16e and the C1 modem in detail.

Figure 1 shows the internal structure of the iPhone 16e, launched in February 2025. Inside, it includes a bar-type battery and a two-layer circuit board (the upper layer for communication, the lower for the processor — a two-story layout), a TAPTIC engine, dual speakers, and a single rear camera. The camera is made by Sony (further details are available in the paid Techana report).

Figure 2 shows the internal structure, camera unit, and main 48-megapixel camera sensor of the iPhone 16 / 16 Pro (released in September 2024) and the iPhone 16e (released in February 2025). Only the iPhone 16 Pro uses an L-shaped battery, while the other two models feature bar-type batteries. Since the iPhone 16e has a single camera, it allows for more internal space, resulting in a larger battery capacity. Although all three models have a 48-megapixel camera with the same pixel count (and same sensor structure), each uses a sensor with different pixel sizes. The sensor area in the iPhone 16 Pro is more than three times larger than that of the iPhone 16e. The fact that there are hardly any fully shared components across the three models (except for features like Face ID) clearly demonstrates Apple’s strong development capabilities.

Figure 3 shows the communication-side circuit board of the iPhone 16e. There are three chips engraved with the Apple logo. In addition to Apple components, the board is densely packed with communication-related power amplifiers and other parts. The three Apple-branded chips together are referred to as C1. Each chip package is marked with Apple's unique chip name, starting with APLXXXX.

The chip on the left is the 5G modem digital baseband (also covering 2G/3G/4G).
The chip on the top right is the communication transceiver (which includes technologies like MIMO).
The chip on the bottom right is the power management IC (PMIC) that controls power for the modem system.

This is the same general configuration used by Qualcomm and MediaTek.
One additional major innovation in the Apple C1 is the use of a MEMS + Generator system instead of a traditional crystal oscillator. (Further technical details are available in the paid Techana report.)

Figure 4 illustrates the origins of the Apple C1 modem. In 2019, Apple acquired Intel’s modem division. Since the Apple C1 was developed after this acquisition, tracing its roots may seem somewhat meaningless—but still worth noting. The modem business that Apple acquired from Intel originally came from Infineon, which Intel had purchased in 2010.
After the acquisition, Intel briefly used this technology in its own smartphone platform series, "SOFIA", but it never gained significant traction. The modem was later used in Apple devices—specifically as the 4G modem in models ranging from the iPhone XS (2018) to the iPhone SE2 (2020)—before the division was eventually acquired by Apple.

The modem division that Infineon sold to Intel had itself been acquired just three years earlier, in 2007, from the American company LSI Corporation. LSI had acquired its modem business that same year by purchasing Agere Systems (and then quickly sold it to Infineon). In other words, the roots of Infineon's modem technology can be traced back to Agere Systems.

Agere Systems was a U.S.-based semiconductor company that specialized in communication technologies. It was spun off from Lucent Technologies in 2002. Lucent Technologies, in turn, was established in 1996 when the semiconductor division of AT&T was separated into an independent company.

Around the same time, many mergers and reorganizations were also occurring in Japan’s electronics industry.

Table 1 shows examples of Agere Systems’ modem chips from the 2000s. Twenty years ago, this was the era of feature phones—not smartphones. Companies like Nokia (using TI chips) and Motorola dominated the market. In Japan, it was the age of “Galápagos phones” (Garakei), which used domestically produced chips or Qualcomm chips. Meanwhile, low-cost models aimed at the Asian market often used modem chips from Agere Systems or MediaTek.

Table 2 compares the final chipset from Intel’s modem division—acquired by Apple in 2019—with the Apple C1 chipset used in the iPhone 16e. The basic three-part configuration remains unchanged: a baseband processor, a transceiver, and a power management IC (PMIC).
Since Apple acquired Intel’s entire modem division, it continued the chipset’s development in-house. As a result, what was once branded with Intel’s logo on the package now bears Apple’s signature apple logo.

Table 3 compares the PMB9960, Intel’s final baseband processor (used in the iPhone SE2), with the Apple C1 baseband processor. The Intel-made baseband was manufactured using Intel’s 14nm process, while the Apple C1 baseband uses TSMC’s 4nm process.
There’s a four-generation gap between 14nm and 4nm (14nm → 10nm → 6/7nm → 4/5nm), and with 4nm offering much higher integration density, the C1's circuit scale is roughly 2.5 to 3 times larger than the PMB9960—a significant leap in complexity and capability!
Inside the Apple C1 baseband, there is a cluster of three massive processing units, giving it a unique architecture that can be described as a conglomeration of computation engines.

Figure 5 shows the internal structure, circuit board, and baseband processor of the iPhone 16 / 16 Pro and iPhone 16e. As previously mentioned, the iPhone 16 / 16 Pro, released in September 2024, uses Qualcomm's Snapdragon X71 modem chipset, while the iPhone 16e, released in 2025, features Apple's proprietary Apple C1 modem.
It’s certain that Apple is working on next-generation modems, like the C2 and C3, so it’s highly likely that these will gradually replace the C1 in future iPhones, such as the next-generation iPhone, expected to launch in the fall of 2025. Additionally, while Wi-Fi and Bluetooth chips are currently made by Broadcom, it seems Apple is planning to replace these with its own custom-developed chips as well. I’m not trying to spread rumors, but it’s likely to be some time before this happens. However, I would like to report on the actual chips once they are released.

Table 4 compares the Qualcomm "SDX71M" 5G baseband processor, used in the iPhone 16 / 16 Pro, with the Apple C1 baseband processor in the iPhone 16e (including measurements of the size and other data). The basic configurations are nearly identical, with both having a digital processor and DRAM integrated into the package.
While Qualcomm uses a 5nm process and Apple uses a 4nm process, the Qualcomm chip is slightly smaller than the Apple C1 despite this difference in manufacturing process.

Glo. · Apr 22, 2025

Apple will release their own 5G router, because of this.

okoroezenwa · Apr 22, 2025

Glo. said:
Apple will release their own 5G router, because of this.

I wouldn’t be too hopeful considering they still haven’t gotten back into WiFi routers on their own (+ 5G Macs).

name99 · Apr 22, 2025

Doug S said:
So he spent maybe $100K in Mac Minis depending on the model, but he's put them in $100 wire rack shelving?

Google's first production server rack, circa 1998

Hard to believe, but a mere “fifteen years ago....” this little frankenstein rack was the heart and soul of their entire operation... at least for a minute or two.

blog.kevinchisholm.com

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Apple Launches Its Own Modem: Tracing the Origins of “C1”​

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Apple Launches Its Own Modem: Tracing the Origins of “C1”