Poll: Do you care about ray tracing / upscaling?

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DAPUNISHER

Super Moderator CPU Forum Mod and Elite Member
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Anti-benchmark is somewhat necessary because the benchmarks aren't reflecting real world performance or because companies are cheating them.

If you only benchmark for 30 seconds of game play the results may not capture problems that only appear after a few minutes when VRAM becomes completely full and the game spills textures into main memory and needs to load over the PCIe bus.

There have also been numerous examples where games were downgrading texture quality to keep frame rates high. The data is worthless in those cases because it's no longer the same Ultra quality.

Benchmarking is still a useful tool and should be included in most reviews, but it's more important than ever to ensure that it's properly done and that the results are useful and accurate for consumers.
Damn straight.

DF is one of the outlets that is automating the bench suite. 25-30 second passes, often in early undemanding sections, with no one doing IQ evaluations is barely a starting point anymore. Great for forum dwellers to cling to and spam the bigger bar better charts around to support whatever the contention or talking points du jour is. Tom's and TPU both failing to test Space Marine 2 in a demanding area is the latest example of how bad these reviews can be. Who cares if the methodology is good, if the results are crap? That it made Blackwell look MUCH better than it is in that game, is really sus. Shilling is way too prevalent.

Content like RT analysis is cool, but I don't like the guise under which DF and Tim from HUB do it. They make it seem like they are doing completely independent testing with no agenda. But it's really more of an infomercial. Hey Folks! Billy here! Nvidia is the best in this game they are heavily involved with and that is heavily optimized for their hardware! But wait! There's more! They are also best in this other game that is heavily optimized for them!

HardOCP was doing something important. How many shovelware and shilling for dollars reviews do you need? I'd rather there were more reviewers looking at the gameplay experiences with the hardware. Daniel-San and Pedro aka zWORMz do a good job of it. I expect terra ware to grow fast as a channel too. He does detailed testing and you can see for yourself what's what. He does not waffle nearly as much as Daniel either.

Aussie Steve at least comes back to things if his patreons give him grief, or tip him off about shenanigans. Most move on and don't rock the boat, because of which side their bread is buttered.

BTW, I knew the 50 series was doomed to be mid when I saw they were sampling channels with less than 100k subs.

Using DLSS for the first time in a couple of years I can say it is overall better in the games where I have tried it than IGTI, XeSS, or FSR versions below 4. I keep being told by reviewers I can't or should not use RT on a card as slow as this slot powered 3050 6GB; Nonsense!
 

Ranulf

Platinum Member
Jul 18, 2001
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Regarding Digital Foundry, there is more some related drama apparently between them and Threat Interactive over graphics.

TI apparently copy right struck this guy's video about TI two months ago:


What I found really interesting though, this gentleman is a game artist and at 6m30s he talks about how MSAA is the big thing in AA tech in games these days. I'm no expert but uh, maybe 5-10 years ago it was. I could have sworn most things are TAA now.

There is a newer video on his channel where this Dallas Drapeau artist/dev/YT'er calls out TI as a fake, who doesn't know what he's talking about and defends DF. Drama but sort of interesting. Mostly interesting for what this game dev's take is on what is wrong with the industry and AA in general. Apparently no one is perfect but we should trust the experts or something was my quick take away. For me, that just means I don't care until their games are 50% or more discounted and run on cheap hardware because none of this nonsense is worth a $500 gpu let alone a $2k+ one.
 

DAPUNISHER

Super Moderator CPU Forum Mod and Elite Member
Super Moderator
Aug 22, 2001
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Regarding Digital Foundry, there is more some related drama apparently between them and Threat Interactive over graphics.

TI apparently copy right struck this guy's video about TI two months ago:


I lack the expertise to determine who is giving us straight dope and who is not. I can however say with complete assuredness that DF shills for dollars. John is a life long self proclaimed Intel CPU loyalist. Alex? Well his work speaks for itself. Rich is alright, but he compromises when need be to pay his bills. Bummer, that. They have done exclusive paid promotional content for Nvidia. That goes beyond conflict of interest and straight to selling out by my standards.
 

marees

Golden Member
Apr 28, 2024
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Why does the game (Assassin's creed shadows) ship with two GI solutions rather than being RT-only, given the likes of Indiana Jones and Avatar: Frontiers of Pandora?

The simple reason is that we believe forcing RT on players today, notably on PC but also in performance modes on consoles, compels us to make qualitative sacrifices that we were simply not willing to take. We're proud of the baked GI system that we've continuously improved from AC Unity - with time of day in AC Syndicate, sparse GI in AC Origins, multi-state GI in AC Valhalla and seasons in AC Shadows.

It's a system that has a cheap run-time cost but produces great results, at the expense of build complexity. This allows us to use our limited GPU budget in 60fps scenarios on console on other features, like procedurally simulated trees and vegetation. We know performance modes are important to players and it will be a popular mode.

On the other hand, RTGI and RT reflections have undeniable advantages, and it was natural for us to develop this for Shadows and future titles. We believe that the game offers a real dilemma in terms of choosing between quality or performance mode. It would have been easier for us to develop a single GI solution, but we want to maximise the reach of the game, even including Steam Deck and portable PC hardware as well.

https://www.eurogamer.net/digitalfo...-tech-qa-rtgi-shader-compilation-taa-and-more
 

DAPUNISHER

Super Moderator CPU Forum Mod and Elite Member
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Aug 22, 2001
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Are...are we back to multi GPU gaming systems? Seems like lossless scaling and 32bit PhysX are both viable use cases -



This is from Daniel-San's video time stamped -

 
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psolord

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I did a quick comparison of FSR3 vs FSR4 on my rx9070, in TLOU.

The smudge that is shown at the beginning is not video compression artifacts, it's FSR3 artifacts. And then see how FSR4 makes it super clear. Yes FSR4 is SUPER important.

Later on, quick test on the background gratings. FSR4 is still artifacting but not as hard as FSR3.


I also did a quick test on inZOI, FSR3 vs XESS with optiscaler this time. Xess is quite more stable and the dynamic res here is super atrocious, it goes even below 1080p at times. Still it's great we can use anything we want.

 
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coercitiv

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Jan 24, 2014
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Bugaga now "Expert" on IGN. NV sponsored.
I can't watch that, the cringe level is through the roof.

I like Alex Battaglia, I think he has what it takes to become an "expert" on gaming graphics that can communicate efficiently with gamers. Starring as a host in an Nvidia commercial completely undermines that. He can lie to himself he's doing sponsored content to evangelize ray tracing, but the leash can be seen from miles away. No amount of criticism for Nvidia drivers on his daily gig will change that.
 

Saylick

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Sep 10, 2012
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I can't watch that, the cringe level is through the roof.

I like Alex Battaglia, I think he has what it takes to become an "expert" on gaming graphics that can communicate efficiently with gamers. Starring as a host in an Nvidia commercial completely undermines that. He can lie to himself he's doing sponsored content to evangelize ray tracing, but the leash can be seen from miles away. No amount of criticism for Nvidia drivers on his daily gig will change that.
“Hey, it’s not my fault what I want just happens to exactly align with what the multi-trillion dollar company once referred to as the Graphics Mafia also wants. It’s a pure coincidence!” - Battaglia, probably.

Not sure if he deludes himself into thinking that he’s acting for his own interests and not Nvidia’s since he likely gets paid for it, but if so that just makes him an unknowing tool. At the same time, if he knows he’s basically acting on Nvidia’s behalf, then the only thing that changes is he goes from being an unknowing tool to simply a tool.
 

psolord

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I did some FSR4 testing vs native res on Space Marine 2 and a 9070 at 4k. The one with the higher draw is the native one obviously. Quick result is that 4k/60 is not possible in a convincing way on the 9070.

Native 4k <60fps at 244W
fsr4 quality = 60fps at 136W
fsr4 balanced = 60fps at 124W
fsr4 performance = 60fps at 112W

Even the performance preset is decent enough. However the quality one seems to be the sweetspot.







 
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Even the performance preset is decent enough. However the quality one seems to be the sweetspot.
Can you highlight the places in the FSR4 Performance screenshot (preferably visually in Paint) where you can see lower quality artifacts? I can't see any difference between all of them.
 
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psolord

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Can you highlight the places in the FSR4 Performance screenshot (preferably visually in Paint) where you can see lower quality artifacts? I can't see any difference between all of them.
Differences are small and best observed in motion to be frank. Also if I edit anything, the re-compression of the file, will defeat the purpose.

I tried to do a presentation at that location, with motion. Same thing. Native vs various FSR4 modes. It came out a little stuttery for some whatever reason. (non monetized channel)


And this is the full blown gameplay test with FSR4 quality. This one is smoother.


Ps the power draw is increased here due to the recording, which pushes the card in a higher tier of power. I will try to get an external recorder for this setup as well. Sidenote, the humble 9070 is also boosting above 3Ghz in this one. I have only reduced the voltage by -0.40mV.
 
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Impressive. I couldn't tell the difference between the various settings. The Ultra Performance one may have had slightly softer textures but if I had been none the wiser, it could've seemed that's just how the game is.
 
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marees

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Hardware RTGI strikes again

Even if you're running the most powerful hardware around, the stuttering is egregious, dragging down the experience to the point where I really don't understand how this was considered good enough for release. And beyond the hitching, we are looking at one of the most bizarrely resource-intensive games I've ever tested - so even if you're OK with lurching stutter, you'll be turning down the settings just to keep the average frame-rate looking acceptable.

Stuttering or hitching is typically a CPU-based problem, which can often be mitigated by ramping up visual quality, lowering frame-rate and attempting to minimise CPU-based stutter via buffering. In effect, you're masking CPU problems via FPS caps, using the excess processing time to increase visual fidelity instead. I tried that by using ultra high resolution with a frame-rate cap but not even the mighty Ryzen 7 9800X3D - the fastest gaming CPU money can buy - can master this game's stuttering problems. This is a core issue when a key part of the gameplay is found in wandering and meandering around the environments - I found no way to get smooth traversal, fundamentally impacting the experience.

If you're looking for a higher average frame-rate, this is where we'd typically chime in with optimised settings - but the issue is that there's only one setting we could find that could make a difference. CPU performance improves by disabling hardware RT-based Lumen global illumination.

By opting for the software alternative (as used on the consoles), performance can improve by around 35 percent on average. Technically, it's a nice improvement when CPU-limited, but it makes the game look worse in many areas. Water reflections are visibly poorer, while ambient shadowing and lighting is heavily downgraded - so there's no free lunch here. The bad news is that even with this mitigation in place, the amount of duration of the game's stuttering does not improve.


Now, there may well be a lot of Elder Scrolls fans out there that don't mind janky stutters and will want better GPU performance as the game also manages to be highly taxing on graphics hardware too. I do have some recommendations. First of all, stick with hardware Lumen, because the lighting it produces on vegetation is a lot better, to the point where software Lumen can look more like a screen-space effect.

Next, drop the hardware lighting mode quality down to low. This setting lights reflections purely with the surface cache instead of hit lighting, so objects in reflections lose specularity and their ray-traced shadows - but they will run around 16 percent better than every other settings when reflections are in full view on-screen. It's worth it for mid-range GPUs, though low-end graphics cards should probably use software Lumen on high, despite the drawbacks.
 

Ranulf

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Lumen problems eh? I'm shocked. I'm enjoying the flack the game's fans are giving DF on the Steam forums even if it is clear the remaster has issues. DF is hardly the only person reporting similar problems with bugs and performance issues. Daniel Owen has had a few and took down his original performance video. This is still the original engine underneath a graphical UnrealEngine5 surface.



 

psolord

Platinum Member
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Oblivion remake and lumen are bad indeed.

Allow me to post two runs I did (non monetized), on the 4070ti and the 9070, with dlss and fsr4 respectively. Both were at 4k/balanced and with shadows one tier down. This is the best combination to get as close to 60fps as possible. The game is heavy. Having played Avowed, also being UE5 open worldish, I have grown to respect the Avowed devs did, lol. Not even close.


 
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psolord

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And to give a pesrpective of Avowed, here is its run. (non monetized)

Be warned that this is the endgame battle, so if you don't want to be spoiled, don't watch it, or watch the first few seconds. It's just a stupid battle anyway, no biggie.

Compared to oblivion, this one has, higher settings, higher base resolution since no fsr4 support existed and optiscaler was crashing (will retry with the new version) AND RT. Above all, it does look way better. It's not UE5 problem, it's the dev's.

 
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psolord

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Sep 16, 2009
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And mentioning optiscaler, here's a new quick test, on an unsupported game. Palworld. Only TSR and DLSS supported.

On the 9070 at 4k maxed you get 39fps. It's unplayable. Also for whatever reason, it takes the card to max wattage without the clock even being maxed.



With optiscaler, you get fsr4 resolving through dlss translation. This is with dlss performance. I guess the emulation takes its toll, but now you can play at least with good resolving.



proof of optiscaler

Overall it's a mixed bug, but better than nothing.
 
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psolord

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Same as above for Clair Obscure Expedition 33. Optiscaler works, otherwise it would be unplayable at 4k/epic.

fsr4 through dlss (non monetized)

 
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marees

Golden Member
Apr 28, 2024
1,000
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Why does the game (Assassin's creed shadows) ship with two GI solutions rather than being RT-only, given the likes of Indiana Jones and Avatar: Frontiers of Pandora?

The simple reason is that we believe forcing RT on players today, notably on PC but also in performance modes on consoles, compels us to make qualitative sacrifices that we were simply not willing to take. We're proud of the baked GI system that we've continuously improved from AC Unity - with time of day in AC Syndicate, sparse GI in AC Origins, multi-state GI in AC Valhalla and seasons in AC Shadows.

It's a system that has a cheap run-time cost but produces great results, at the expense of build complexity. This allows us to use our limited GPU budget in 60fps scenarios on console on other features, like procedurally simulated trees and vegetation. We know performance modes are important to players and it will be a popular mode.

On the other hand, RTGI and RT reflections have undeniable advantages, and it was natural for us to develop this for Shadows and future titles. We believe that the game offers a real dilemma in terms of choosing between quality or performance mode. It would have been easier for us to develop a single GI solution, but we want to maximise the reach of the game, even including Steam Deck and portable PC hardware as well.

https://www.eurogamer.net/digitalfo...-tech-qa-rtgi-shader-compilation-taa-and-more
You can even disable soft lumen in Oblivion Remastered


Oblivion Remastered was a mess on PC until I made these 6 tweaks​



If you want the biggest performance gains, reach for view distance and screen space reflections first.


Oblivion Remastered is certainly beautiful if you can max out hardware Lumen, but if you're already compromising on the quality of ray tracing, you're better off switching to software RT.


Oblivion Remastered uses UE5's Lumen ray tracing by default. Be it through hardware or software, you can't turn Lumen off in the game. However, you can turn Lumen off with that handy engine.ini file. The easiest way to do that is to download the Lumen Begone mod from Nexus. It includes an engine.ini file that disables Lumen if you have a low-end PC, and it's available as a bundle with Ultimate Engine Tweaks if you want to get the optimizations from both mods in a single file.

This will make the game look significantly worse, but disabling Lumen can net you some big performance gains if you're using low-end hardware. If you don't want to download any files, the Lumen Begone creator says you can recreate the changes by adding the following lines to your engine.ini file:

[/Script/Engine.RendererSettings]​
r.Lumen.DiffuseIndirect.Allow=0​
[ConsoleVariables]​
r.Lumen.DiffuseIndirect.Allow=0​

https://www.xda-developers.com/tweaks-to-boost-performance-in-oblivion-remastered-on-pc/
 
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