8GB VRAM not enough (and 10 / 12)

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BFG10K

Lifer
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8GB
Horizon Forbidden West 3060 is faster than the 2080 Super despite the former usually competing with the 2070. Also 3060 has a better 1% low than 4060 and 4060Ti 8GB.
Resident Evil Village 3060TI/3070 tanks at 4K and is slower than the 3060/6700XT when ray tracing:
Company Of Heroes 3060 has a higher minimum than the 3070TI:

10GB / 12GB

Reasons why still shipping 8GB since 2014 isn't NV's fault.
  1. It's the player's fault.
  2. It's the reviewer's fault.
  3. It's the developer's fault.
  4. It's AMD's fault.
  5. It's the game's fault.
  6. It's the driver's fault.
  7. It's a system configuration issue.
  8. Wrong settings were tested.
  9. Wrong area was tested.
  10. Wrong games were tested.
  11. 4K is irrelevant.
  12. Texture quality is irrelevant as long as it matches a console's.
  13. Detail levels are irrelevant as long as they match a console's.
  14. There's no reason a game should use more than 8GB, because a random forum user said so.
  15. It's completely acceptable for the more expensive 3070/3070TI/3080 to turn down settings while the cheaper 3060/6700XT has no issue.
  16. It's an anomaly.
  17. It's a console port.
  18. It's a conspiracy against NV.
  19. 8GB cards aren't meant for 4K / 1440p / 1080p / 720p gaming.
  20. It's completely acceptable to disable ray tracing on NV while AMD has no issue.
  21. Polls, hardware market share, and game title count are evidence 8GB is enough, but are totally ignored when they don't suit the ray tracing agenda.
According to some people here, 8GB is neeeevaaaaah NV's fault and objective evidence "doesn't count" because of reasons(tm). If you have others please let me know and I'll add them to the list. Cheers!
 
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TESKATLIPOKA

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May 1, 2020
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MrTeal said:
Why would you need to buy the RAM as a combo? The whole idea is that you can choose the amount that's right for you.
Click to expand...
Maybe because LPDDR5X is soldered on board and there are no boards supporting CAMM, so expecting It to suddenly happen with a niche product like Strix Halo, which is not even confirmed for Desktop is highly optimistic.
MrTeal said:
You'd just get the CPU soldered onto the MB, but you could still have upgradable RAM, PCIe/m.2/SATA slots, ATX power, etc. CAMM availability is obviously terrible now, but that could change.
Click to expand...
You can't buy Strix Halo except in a laptop or mini-PC and even that in only a limited number of models so far. If AMD ever releases Strix Halo for DIY, then we can talk about the upgradeability again, but until then we are limited to prebuilt systems.

P.S. OK, there is a single motherboard with CAMM2 -> Z790 Project Zero
 
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MrTeal

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Dec 7, 2003
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TESKATLIPOKA said:
Maybe because LPDDR5X is soldered on board and there are no boards supporting CAMM, so expecting It to suddenly happen with a niche product like Strix Halo, which is not even confirmed for Desktop is highly optimistic.

You can't buy Strix Halo except in a laptop or mini-PC and even that in only a limited number of models so far. If AMD ever releases Strix Halo for DIY, then we can talk about the upgradeability again, but until then we are limited to prebuilt systems.

P.S. OK, there is a single motherboard with CAMM2 -> Z790 Project Zero
Click to expand...
LPDDR5X would have to be soldered on, but LPCAMM2 wouldn't. Again we're not talking a currently available product here, but Mopetar speculated on a desktop Strix Halo board with expandable ram, and he's not wrong that AMD or a partner could release such a board to the DIY if they really wanted to. It would be super niche, but that's not a technical hurdle.
 
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Rigg

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May 6, 2020
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MrTeal said:
LPDDR5X would have to be soldered on, but LPCAMM2 wouldn't. Again we're not talking a currently available product here, but Mopetar speculated on a desktop Strix Halo board with expandable ram, and he's not wrong that AMD or a partner could release such a board to the DIY if they really wanted to. It would be super niche, but that's not a technical hurdle.
Click to expand...
This board is available for pre-order.

Framework Desktop Mainboard (AMD Ryzen™ AI Max 300 Series)

Available with AMD Ryzen™ AI Max 385 and Ryzen™ AI Max+ 395 processors, the Framework Desktop’s mainboard is designed for performance and upgradeability.
frame.work

They inquired with AMD about using LPCAMM2. They couldn't make it work due to signal integrity on the 256 bit bus.


LPCAMM info @ 7:35
 
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TESKATLIPOKA

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MrTeal said:
LPDDR5X would have to be soldered on, but LPCAMM2 wouldn't. Again we're not talking a currently available product here, but Mopetar speculated on a desktop Strix Halo board with expandable ram, and he's not wrong that AMD or a partner could release such a board to the DIY if they really wanted to. It would be super niche, but that's not a technical hurdle.
Click to expand...
True, from technical point It's more than possible.

From what @Rigg posted we can see that the first motherboard with Strix Halo has soldered on LPDDR5x, yeah, It can later use LPCAMM2, but I think those modules would be overpriced for sometime and no one will bother, but that's my opinion.

Another interesting thing from that link is the price of this CPU+MB+RAM+Heatsink combo.

This includes VAT.

I made comparable 32GB, 64GB and 128GB systems:
AMD Ryzen 7 9700X 327,90 € or AMD Ryzen 9 9950X 634,90 €
ASROCK B850 Pro-A WiFi 179,90 €
RX 9060Ti 16GB 400-450 €
Kingston FURY 32 GB KIT DDR5 6 000MT/s 97,90 € or FURY 64 GB KIT DDR5 6000 MHz 182,90 € or 2x FURY 64 GB KIT DDR5 6000 MHz 365.8 €
Thermalright Phantom Spirit 120 SE 46,05 €

32GB System: 1052-1102 € (+13.2-18.6%)
64GB System: 1444-1494 € (-1-4%)
128GB System: 1627-1677 € (-15.3-17.8%)
64GB and 128GB DIY are cheaper while performing better in CPU and a lot better in GPU tests.
The 32GB Strix Halo is cheaper, which is nice, but It has "only" 32GB RAM while DIY system has 32GB+16GB and will provide you with >50% more gaming performance and better features, so perf/$ is still much worse.

So what I said that you can make a cheaper DIY system still stands.

On the other hand, If AMD made an improved Strix Halo with 32CU RDNA4 + LPDDR5X-10700(Samsung) and increased TDP to 170W(225 W PPT), then with some price reduction It could be much more interesting. It still won't perform as good as 9060XT 16GB thanks to TDP->clocks, but there shouldn't be that big of a difference. To be on par or a bit better, you would need 40CU RDNA4, but IOD would be even bigger, I am not even sure that 32CU RDNA4 is possible within the same size of 307.58mm2.
 
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Rigg

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TESKATLIPOKA said:
From what @Rigg posted we can see that the first motherboard with Strix Halo has soldered on LPDDR5x, yeah, It can later use LPCAMM2, but I think those modules would be overpriced for sometime and no one will bother, but that's my opinion.
Click to expand...
According to the framework guy in the LTT video I posted, AMD determined that LPCAMM2 is not possible on strix halo. It's at 7:35 in the video.
 
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psolord

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blckgrffn said:
Then turn the dynamic resolution scaling off.

If you claim a certain resolution you either run it at that resolution directly or asterisk the results as having a dynamic resolution enabled.

You can’t know all the variables for the dynamic resolution output. What if one of them is vram usage out of the total? Thats just one of many variables that could be used.

Or have the goalposts moved again and now 1080p/60fps/TAA Quality Resolution is what everyone should concede is acceptable?
Click to expand...

I did a new run as promised. This time with DLAA, no dynamic res involved.

The game still runs absolutely fine on the 3060ti, with texture pool size at medium. Yes, if you set it to ultra, it will crash. This is what I call wrong settings.


You will notice some minor leaf pop in on some trees. You may argue that this is due to vram. Well the same exact thing happens on my 9070, at straight very ultra, and there is quite a lot more vram to spare on the 9070. This is an engine thing.

 
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psolord

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Rigg said:
Gotta love our old pal JustBenching entering the chat. Looks like he's branching out from his intel shilling here into a side gig for shilling for NVIDIA on the TPU forums. Wizard's comments in the review thread and DOA thread are straight out of the @psolord handbook.
Click to expand...
Wizzard only says what should be obvious to everybody, but apparently isn't. Fine tune your settings.

In any case, the 5060ti is too strong for 8GBs.
 
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psolord

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igor_kavinski said:
PSOLORD will LOVE this (timestamped):


Hint: No, he won't

Jay is doing a crime against him and all 3070 owners by running a game at settings that Nvidia DID NOT say on the box it couldn't run

Then he tries the 6700 XT and can't figure out why the onscreen display is showing more than 12GB VRAM consumption. I think it's because AMD driver is using system RAM to compensate for lack of VRAM but Jay will ask TAP about it.
Click to expand...
First of all I have a 3060ti not a 3070ti. I bought the card that I thought 8GB would be a good fit. And still is for the given gpu power.

That being said, I never said that 8GBs will be enough for all resolutions and until the end of time. 8GBs are still good, with correct settings. 8GBs will not inhibit the gaming experience, if you use correct settings. If you crank everything to over9000, it will, but for the 3060ti case, the gpu power will inhibit everything first.

That being said, the 5060ti that is all the rage in this thread nowadays, is too powerful for 8GBs. Looking at the subject as a 3060ti owner, the 5060ti is by +1/3 faster. It should have +1/3 more vram easily.
 
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psolord

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Some more examples in terms of gpu power to vram ratios and what turned out to be more important.

These are some newer tests from gamegpu, just from APRIL. They are just 1080p. Look at the 3060 and how much the 12GBs are helping...

 
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psolord

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Ranulf said:
8gb is fine in 4k. See Space Marine 2!

View attachment 122450

And the textures are great!

View attachment 122451

Well, mostly great. Depends on settings. Look at those numbers on the 8gb card, it runs faster than the 16GB at times!
Click to expand...
They downloaded and installed the 4k texture pack, for a card that was not meant for these, then lower the internal resolution to below 4k and proceed to show how 8GBs are not enough! Great! Just great. The internet is now educated.
 
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Timorous

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psolord said:
Some more examples in terms of gpu power to vram ratios and what turned out to be more important.

These are some newer tests from gamegpu, just from APRIL. They are just 1080p. Look at the 3060 and how much the 12GBs are helping...

View attachment 122805View attachment 122806View attachment 122807View attachment 122808View attachment 122809View attachment 122810View attachment 122811
Click to expand...

Where are the 8GB cards for a point of comparison?
 
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psolord

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Timorous said:
Where are the 8GB cards for a point of comparison?
Click to expand...
They sold them and are focusing on higher vram cards from now on. They are doing tests with maxed out settings only, for which I am opposed, but I appreciate their work. The 8GB cards were causing problems with the site's point of focus. I mean I have no use for a 3060 that runs games at 17-20 fps with maxed out settings. I don't care if the whatever 8GB card crashed with fafo settings. I need useful playable comparisons, as close to 60fps as possible.

I try to fill this 8GB gap, as much as I can, with my own testing, with what my 3060ti can muster.

Comparing with the 3060 here.

Starting with the awesome Clair Obscur Expedition 33, the 3060 was giving 36fps at 1080p ultra.

The 3060ti at high preset with reduced shadows and global illumination, can actually be playable at 4k/dlss performance. For reference I also post the 9070's same run, at 4k/epic/fsr4 performance. See how ugly the 3060ti is. Spoiler alert, it isnt.



South of Midnight for the 3060 at 49fps 1080p is not that bad per se, however with correct settings, you can again have 4k/dlss auto, absolutely playable on the 3060ti at something less than ultra. For reference I am also posting the 9070s run at straight ultra, with 4k TAAU quality. The 9070 is easily 2X faster than the 3060ti. It also has 2X the VRAM. These settings bring the cards at their max TBP. Try to quantize how much better the 9070 really looks.

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Auf YouTube findest du die angesagtesten Videos und Tracks. Außerdem kannst du eigene Inhalte hochladen und mit Freunden oder gleich der ganzen Welt teilen.
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For The Oblivion remake, the 3060 is at 17fps. Mmmmm dat framerate...

This is how it runs on the 3060ti at 4k/high/dlss performance/low lumen. Is it ugly? Nope. It gets bad outdoors though, but there is the cpu limit at play here, so results are inconclusive. Will retest on a future better system.

- YouTube

Auf YouTube findest du die angesagtesten Videos und Tracks. Außerdem kannst du eigene Inhalte hochladen und mit Freunden oder gleich der ganzen Welt teilen.
www.youtube.com

For reference this is the same location on the 9070, which is quite a lot more capable than the 3060ti and really shows its teeth here. 4k/fsr4 quality and ultra preset (low lumen). The image quality of the 3060ti itself though, is not bad. I mean high vs ultra.

- YouTube

Auf YouTube findest du die angesagtesten Videos und Tracks. Außerdem kannst du eigene Inhalte hochladen und mit Freunden oder gleich der ganzen Welt teilen.
www.youtube.com

The rest I have not tested yet, but you get the drift. VRAM ain't gonna save you. Good settings along with a good hardware upscaler will do miracles though. And this is my beef with this thread and the whole 8GB stance. People move aside all the good aspects of a card and focus solely on a small bit, that can cause problems in very few cases, which are also easily recoverable.
 
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psolord

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igor_kavinski said:
Someone's favorite website dropped 8GB cards altogether???

SHOCK! SURPRISE! AWE! HORROR! DISBELIEF!

Is Armageddon just around the corner???

Click to expand...
Well there are other sites with 8GB cards still.

TPU's COE33 findings for example do not show an 8GB problem either.

Clair Obscur: Expedition 33 Performance Benchmark Review - 33 GPUs Tested

Clair Obscur: Expedition 33 is the best RPG this year so far. It's like a blend of a souls-like with a JRPG, and is turn-based, with some additional mechanics from other genres. In our performance review, we examine its graphical fidelity, VRAM usage, and how well it runs on a variety of modern...
www.techpowerup.com

They do show a considerable gpu power deficiency however, since for native 1440p, everything below the 5080 is ridonculous.

Sadly the 5060ti cards seem to have crashing problems, but the 4060ti cards, do not show a serious problem.

Speaking of COE33, I just uploaded my rx6600 test as well. Quite lower than what the 3060ti could do, still not ugly. 1080p , xess quality, medium base preset, compared to 4k, dlss performance, high base preset.

Mix of 2 videos from youtube : psolords 3060ti vs rx6600, clair obscur expedition 33

Mix of 2 videos from youtube, by psolord : psolords 3060ti vs rx6600, clair obscur expedition 33
www.youtubemultiplier.com

I did use EPIC textures for both runs though and the 6600's vram usage is around 5.5GBs. The 3060ti is at +2GB more. It's not the textures that are causing the problems, but everything else really. That is if the dev is not an idiot.

The 3060ti is way more stable overall in terms of visual quality, but it is also a little slower in terms of framerate, due to the higher settings. However it did drive a 4K panel convincingly. Maybe I will have to repeat the test at the 6600 settings, but at 4k/dlss.

Sidenote, for a small laugh, although dlss is more stable overall, affected also by the higher base resolution of course, 1080p vs 720p, xess did have some wins at parts, for example here. The 6600 is on the right! So Good guy Intel I guess. Hey, the 3060ti can use XeSS as well...


Anyhoo, where I am getting at, is that when you buy a graphics card, you buy into a bunch of features, you don't just buy video ram and people need to understand this.
 
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coercitiv

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Jan 24, 2014
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Mopetar said:
That reminds me of my uncle who smokes multiple packs of cigarettes per day and never got cancer.
Click to expand...
He should try uncle Buck's five year plan to stop smoking cigarettes, it's the same plan @psolord uses to stop defending $400 8GB cards:

Fun fact, by the time the plan goes through all stages, 8GB cards will probably cost $800

Now, you may think I'm joking, but tell me this isn't the face of anyone trying to make sense of this thread after almost 4 years and 140+ pages since inception:
 
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