Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

Tigerick · Aug 22, 2022

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.

Comparison of upcoming Intel's U-series CPU: Core Ultra 100U, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

Model	Code-Name	Date	TDP	Node	Tiles	Main Tile	CPU	LP E-Core	LLC	GPU	Xe-cores
Core Ultra 100U	Meteor Lake	Q4 2023	15 - 57 W	Intel 4 + N5 + N6	4	tCPU	2P + 8E	2	12 MB	Intel Graphics	4
?	Lunar Lake	Q4 2024	17 - 30 W	N3B + N6	2	CPU + GPU & IMC	4P + 4E	0	12 MB	Arc	8
?	Panther Lake	Q1 2026 ?	?	Intel 18A + N3E	3	CPU + MC	4P + 8E	4	?	Arc	12

Comparison of die size of Each Tile of Meteor Lake, Arrow Lake, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

	Meteor Lake	Arrow Lake (N3B)	Lunar Lake	Panther Lake
Platform	Mobile H/U Only	Desktop & Mobile H&HX	Mobile U Only	Mobile H
Process Node	Intel 4	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	Intel 18A
Date	Q4 2023	Desktop-Q4-2024 H&HX-Q1-2025	Q4 2024	Q1 2026 ?
Full Die	6P + 8P	8P + 16E	4P + 4E	4P + 8E
LLC	24 MB	36 MB ?	12 MB	?
tCPU	66.48
tGPU	44.45
SoC	96.77
IOE	44.45
Total	252.15

Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake

As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)

511 · Apr 29, 2025

DrMrLordX said:
On the one hand, Intel has yet to farm out any of their datacentre CPU production to TSMC, so that's a safe bet based on historical trends; however, we should reserve judgment of what 18a is really capable of doing. It may wind up being another node like Intel 4.

What was the issue with Intel 4 except for the 7nm delay ofc

DrMrLordX · Apr 29, 2025

511 said:
What was the issue with Intel 4 except for the 7nm delay ofc

It only ever wound up in Meteor Lake (and a throwaway Ericcson CPU). It never made it into any notable datacentre CPUs.

coercitiv · Apr 29, 2025

DrMrLordX said:
It only ever wound up in Meteor Lake (and a throwaway Ericcson CPU). It never made it into any notable datacentre CPUs.

And the one consumer product line faced major supply issues. Whether it was packaging, yields, or a combo of both, they burned through wafers and their margins to meet orders.

511 · Apr 29, 2025

DrMrLordX said:
It only ever wound up in Meteor Lake (and a throwaway Ericcson CPU). It never made it into any notable datacentre CPUs.

They are using it in DC product though with xeon 6 SoC but yeah I would call it a bit disappointing that there was no products outside MTL initially and they made a fool out of us with Intel 4 look at this

VLSI Technology Symposium – Intel describes i3 process, how does it measure up? - Semiwiki

At the VLSI Technology Symposium this week Intel released details on their i3 process. Over the last four nodes Intel has had an interesting process progression. In 2019, 10nm finally entered production with both high performance and high-density standard cells. 10nm went through several...

semiwiki.com

Hot Chips 2024 Intel Xeon 6 Granite Rapids D_Page_12 - ServeTheHome

Hot Chips 2024 Intel Xeon 6 Granite Rapids D_Page_12

www.servethehome.com

They are simply calling Intel 3 with 18ML as Intel 4 basically a subset of Intel 3.

OneEng2 · Apr 29, 2025

LightningZ71 said:
DC processors typically don't hit as high of peak boost speeds as desktop products. This matches well with rumors that 18A has issues with clocking high efficiently.

That is how I interpret the leak as well. This is why I questioned the yield and defect statements on 18A since the defect/cm2 and "Yield" numbers do NOT specify how well the process scales the clock speed on a specific design ..... which is where the rubber hits the road IMO.

511 said:
My expectation on NVL and as for why maybe they are having issue with BSPDN to clock High Ghz due to the heat and thermal challenges and DMR is 18AP.

Speaking on other forums with guys that do fab for a living, that was the answer I also received. Hot spots are the biggest issue with BSPDN. If these hot spots end up limiting the clock speed of the entire design, the processor will still be quite efficient at lower clock speeds and will have good transistor density. This does make it an issue for consumer products.

inquiss said:
Honestly, intels high core count nvl feels like not would flop because..who cares about that many cores. 12c 3D vcache will outsell everything next gen. All the high core count stuff doesn't really sell.

While I agree that 52 cores seems like a proposition that will only be appealing to a limited number of users, 3D vcache is ALSO a proposition that is only appealing to a limited number of users IMO.

The real money and volume will be with the lower core count versions from Intel (28 and below) and AMD (12 and below). It is starting to seem like AMD will have an edge in ST or more limited MT while Intel will dominate highly MT in desktop. AMD will still be without a competitor in workstation with threadripper IMO.

I am quite interested to see how Intel's 18A BSPDN DC processors perform though. This might be Intel's bright shining city .

511 · Apr 29, 2025

OneEng2 said:
That is how I interpret the leak as well. This is why I questioned the yield and defect statements on 18A since the defect/cm2 and "Yield" numbers do NOT specify how well the process scales the clock speed on a specific design ..... which is where the rubber hits the road IMO.

There is a word for it called parametric yield what Semi Companies use to bin their processor.

OneEng2 said:
The real money and volume will be with the lower core count versions from Intel (28 and below) and AMD (12 and below). It is starting to seem like AMD will have an edge in ST or more limited MT while Intel will dominate highly MT in desktop. AMD will still be without a competitor in workstation with thread ripper IMO.

I am quite interested to see how Intel's 18A BSPDN DC processors perform though. This might be Intel's bright shining city .

I think we are giving AMD the ST Crown for no reason ARL Retains the ST Crown this gen. I fully expect Panther to be at least 20%+ IPC vs Lion Cove improvements and Arctic Wolf to be 25%+ vs Darkmont plus fixing the Latency regression for AMD i can say 15%+ easily for Zen 6 vs Zen 5.

511 · Apr 29, 2025

Intel CEO Panther Lake will launch a single SKU in 2025 rest 2 in Q1 26.

dullard · Apr 29, 2025

511 said:
Intel CEO Panther Lake will launch a single SKU in 2025 rest 2 in Q1 26.

They released this node update graphic today.
* 18A-PT is with 3D stacking.
* 14A has PowerDirect instead of PowerVia which is supposedly more efficient power delivery.

fastandfurious6 · Apr 29, 2025

3d cache in 2028 (optimistic) !!

AcrosTinus · Apr 29, 2025

Intel did a great job extending their packaging. This might really open up exciting paths.

DavidC1 · Apr 29, 2025

511 said:
They are simply calling Intel 3 with 18ML as Intel 4 basically a subset of Intel 3.

Yes, but Intel 3 is 18% performance over Intel 4, which is basically a full node improvement. Modern CPUs are power limited.

511 said:
I fully expect Panther to be at least 20%+ IPC vs Lion Cove improvements and Arctic Wolf to be 25%+ vs Darkmont plus fixing the Latency regression for AMD i can say 15%+ easily for Zen 6 vs Zen 5.

Whatever, the E cores should replace the P cores like yesterday.

inquiss · Apr 29, 2025

OneEng2 said:
While I agree that 52 cores seems like a proposition that will only be appealing to a limited number of users, 3D vcache is ALSO a proposition that is only appealing to a limited number of users IMO.

Where I disagree here is that gaming drives DIY. You see that in the top processor sales. I'm not saying that DIY is the only part of the market, but it's a much bigger part than 52c would be useful for (as a consumer platforms with consumer prices?)

If course the bulk of the market is just business and grey boxes and non vcache makes sense for volume standard use cases. Tbh that's mostly laptop anyway.

DavidC1 · Apr 29, 2025

inquiss said:
Where I disagree here is that gaming drives DIY. You see that in the top processor sales. I'm not saying that DIY is the only part of the market, but it's a much bigger part than 52c would be useful for (as a consumer platforms with consumer prices?)

Gaming DOES drive DIY, in the sense the top product is the decision maker for which company's products that consumers decide to buy.

That's why Nvidia can sell RTX 3050 over AMD's RX 6600, even at similar prices.

Endless variations of "gaming" chairs, mouse, and other accessories is another indication of that. What about things like professional "esports" sponsorships by such manufacturers?

Financially, the margins are higher and more profitable on such products. So saying that "DIY" or "Gaming" does not matter is misleading, because it's not. If it was, then there would be no market for it. Yet reports still claim gaming market is the one that is still growing.

Since computer manufacturers basically make the same thing, without such differentiators such as saying "AI" or "Gaming" there's no reason for you to buy one over the other. The ones that only make bland, generic computers will disappear eventually. So manufacturers will want to be the first to get on the bandwagon.

Addendum to the addendum: Many such people gathered their knowledge while trying to game on computers. I myself influenced buying decisions for my friends and family. "One" person is way more than one.

inquiss · Apr 29, 2025

DavidC1 said:
Gaming DOES drive DIY, in the sense the top product is the decision maker for which company's products that consumers decide to buy.

That's why Nvidia can sell RTX 3050 over AMD's RX 6600, even at similar prices.

Endless variations of "gaming" chairs, mouse, and other accessories is another indication of that. What about things like professional "esports" sponsorships by such manufacturers?

Financially, the margins are higher and more profitable on such products. So saying that "DIY" or "Gaming" does not matter is misleading, because it's not. If it was, then there would be no market for it. Yet reports still claim gaming market is the one that is still growing.

Since computer manufacturers basically make the same thing, without such differentiators such as saying "AI" or "Gaming" there's no reason for you to buy one over the other. The ones that only make bland, generic computers will disappear eventually. So manufacturers will want to be the first to get on the bandwagon.

Addendum to the addendum: Many such people gathered their knowledge while trying to game on computers. I myself influenced buying decisions for my friends and family. "One" person is way more than one.

I needed a comma. I'm saying gaming does drive DIY and I was dismissing the notion in the quoted text that a gaming focused vcache model is niche. I don't think it's niche. Probably an order order magnitude, or two, more important than a low clocked 52 core beast. Maybe 3 orders of magnitude actually.

jpiniero · Apr 29, 2025

DIY is only a part of the desktop market.

Most of the desktop market is "Corpos who could have bought a laptop but like the desktop/AIO form factor"

511 · Apr 29, 2025

DavidC1 said:
Yes, but Intel 3 is 18% performance over Intel 4, which is basically a full node improvement. Modern CPUs are power limited.

Only for HD vs HP Library but yes also their HP libraries had PPW Improvements as well due to their changes with Intel 3

DrMrLordX · Apr 30, 2025

511 said:
They are using it in DC product though with xeon 6 SoC

That's weird. Wonder why they aren't using Intel 3 (and I mean the same Intel 3 as being used in Granite Rapids and Sierra Forest, not the one cited below)?

511 said:
They are simply calling Intel 3 with 18ML as Intel 4 basically a subset of Intel 3.

Huh. Intel certainly is creative with their node naming schemes.

511 · Apr 30, 2025

DrMrLordX said:
That's weird. Wonder why they aren't using Intel 3 (and I mean the same Intel 3 as being used in Granite Rapids and Sierra Forest, not the one cited below)?

Not only that but the DSA/IAA in GNR/Clearwater Forest(Intel 7) is not safe for Use in VM but the one with Intel 4 node is.
The only way I think is the design was not finalized On Intel 4 when GNR/SRF Launched.

Intel's Current IAA & DSA Accelerators Aren't Safe For VMs Due To A Security Issue - Phoronix

www.phoronix.com

DrMrLordX said:
Huh. Intel certainly is creative with their node naming schemes.

They are it is impossible without reading into fine line to differentiate what is what.

DrMrLordX · Apr 30, 2025

511 said:
Not only that but the DSA/IAA in GNR/Clearwater Forest(Intel 7) is not safe for Use in VM but the one with Intel 4 node is.

Wait does that mean Emerald Rapids is affected too?

511 said:
The only way I think is the design was not finalized On Intel 4 when GNR/SRF Launched.

Huh. You would think they'd port to Intel 3 (which should be relatively simple) but I guess not.

511 · Apr 30, 2025

DrMrLordX said:
Wait does that mean Emerald Rapids is affected too?

Yes I think

DrMrLordX said:
Huh. You would think they'd port to Intel 3 (which should be relatively simple) but I guess not.

I meant the IO Tile only that is currently on Intel 7 on these SKUs which is not a simple port.

DrMrLordX · Apr 30, 2025

511 said:
I meant the IO Tile only that is currently on Intel 7 on these SKUs which is not a simple port.

Yeah the I/O tile wouldn't be, but the compute tile is Intel 4 so . . . that being said, if they're still stuck with an Intel 7 I/O tile, then maybe they don't want to bother updating the product and will just leave it as-is, even if it means maintaining more lines dedicated to Intel 4 production than is striclty necessary.

511 · Apr 30, 2025

DrMrLordX said:
Yeah the I/O tile wouldn't be, but the compute tile is Intel 4 so . . . that being said, if they're still stuck with an Intel 7 I/O tile, then maybe they don't want to bother updating the product and will just leave it as-is, even if it means maintaining more lines dedicated to Intel 4 production than is striclty necessary.

Yes but DMR is getting Intel 4 IO tile

DrMrLordX · May 1, 2025

511 said:
Yes but DMR is getting Intel 4 IO tile

Why not an Intel 3 I/O tile?

511 · May 1, 2025

DrMrLordX said:
Why not an Intel 3 I/O tile?

I don't know It can be they are simply calling a variant of Intel 3 as Intel 4 😅

511 · May 1, 2025

PTL looks exactly like what was leaked.

Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

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