Did Biden move too far Left? ( can we move this discussion out of the Tariff Thread)

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nakedfrog

No Lifer
Apr 3, 2001
61,248
16,730
136
Your integrity is a joke. Nobody has refuted the fact (its not just a claim) of the Biden admins terrible immigration enforcement policy. Just keep drinking your own kool-aid and carry on with your delusion.
My integrity is a joke? Can you support that in any way? Given how well you've supported your other arguments here, my presumption is no, you cannot.
But, for example, when it was pointed out that you apparently don't know the difference between transgender people and intersex people, you were no longer interested in engaging in that part of the discussion.
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,278
53,839
136
I would argue that most people of a country like the US or UK want is actually some disruption. For whom does either civilisation currently work for? It isn't us.

If you want more of the same (maybe with some slight reforms, but nothing significant), you vote for Clinton, Biden, Harris, Starmer, etc.

If one thinks that the system is significantly broken then one is more likely to vote for a person who doesn't represent the status quo.
Prosperity in western countries is basically at the highest level in human history. Plenty of room for improvement but to say that our civilization doesn't work for us seems crazy.

I'm not excusing Trump voters, just like I wouldn't excuse Farage / BJ voters, especially since with Trump voters that they already had a taste of his fuckwittery at work but because they've either got goldfish-like memories, are fascists at heart or because they're brainwashed with RWM BS, but the point that truly needs to be addressed by politicians in the mainstream is that significant change is needed, and that half-heartedly pandering to the far-right because ooh scary immigrants is not going to cut it, people are going to keep burn-it-down voting until someone really burns that shit down.

People like Clinton, Biden, and Harris were never going to marginalise the health insurance companies, just like Starmer isn't going to do anything major to save the NHS. Meaningful changes to 2A aren't going to happen with the current Dems ever, it doesn't matter how many mass shooting atrocities there will be or how many "the sounds of children screaming have been removed" quotes. Some half-hearted bullshit to try and pander to lefties, a couple of small improvements that won't make waves/enemies in political circles, that's it.
People generally don't want disruption in my opinion and when you actually try changing things people flip out. The reason why Democrats didn't sideline the insurance companies is most voters didn't want them to! The entire reason for 'if you like your doctor you can keep your doctor' was that among the top fears of people about the ACA was it would be disruptive.

When it comes to the second amendment there's nothing Democrats can do. It has nothing to do with half-hearted bullshit, it has to do with the fact that SCOTUS has declared most gun laws unconstitutional. Until you pack the court or replace enough of them there's nothing to be done. Now to be clear I'm in favor of both packing the court AND banning all guns but until you deal with SCOTUS nothing else can move.

Don't get me wrong, I voted for Keir Starmer because he was the best chance at getting the tories out. I sincerely hope that he doesn't spend most of his time being tory lite, but I have to be realistic, and this half-hearted bullshit that panderers of their sort do really isn't going to fix shit like climate change, like the rising cost of living, the fact that a decreasing minority will be able to get on the housing ladder without family help.

We're in dire need of some real leadership by principled people with a fully functioning moral compass. People who have no problem being outspoken and having the skill to make their argument to joe everyman. People who would take a bullet to make things better for future generations. Our time is running out.
I think Obama is a good example of how people like the idea and hate the details so when people talk about wanting disruption I find it often falls apart as soon as it's confronted by the details.
 
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ondma

Diamond Member
Mar 18, 2018
3,235
1,645
136
Nah, the ship is listing so far too the right, the pendulum never even swings back to center.
I am afraid you are right. Add to that, the powerful right wing media and social media, and the fact that the Dems dont really have a strong, charismatic leader, and incomprehensibly, the Reps could stay in power for a long time. Evidence of this is the fact that after dropping to record lows, Trump's approval rating is starting to rebound. Like it or not, you also have to admit Trump is very adept at "flooding the zone" and manipulating the political environment. Case in point is his tariffs. He talks tough, crashes the market, then makes a "deal" such as the pause with China, and claims it as a victory. The markets rebound -- another "victory". But are we really any better off than before the tariffs were imposed? Hell I dont know, and I am sure most people dont either. It just looks like a big victory for Trump.

PS: Before the AOC fans start to attack me about "no strong charismatic leader", you are free to disagree, but I dont consider her a viable candidate for national office. TBH, I initially thought she was just a left wing crackpot who would rapidly be voted out and disappear, but I have come to respect her for sticking to her beliefs and not being afraid to speak out. That said, I still dont think she has a chance at taking the Presidency from the Reps, she is just too polarizing, and yes, IMO too far to the left to win a national election.
 

ondma

Diamond Member
Mar 18, 2018
3,235
1,645
136
I am afraid you are right. Add to that, the powerful right wing media and social media, and the fact that the Dems dont really have a strong, charismatic leader, and incomprehensibly, the Reps could stay in power for a long time. Evidence of this is the fact that after dropping to record lows, Trump's approval rating is starting to rebound. (Edit: also is the fact that somehow, despite all Trumps trampling of our system of government, Dems have an approval rate even lower than Trump) Like it or not, you also have to admit Trump is very adept at "flooding the zone" and manipulating the political environment. Case in point is his tariffs. He talks tough, crashes the market, then makes a "deal" such as the pause with China, and claims it as a victory. The markets rebound -- another "victory". But are we really any better off than before the tariffs were imposed? Hell I dont know, and I am sure most people dont either. It just looks like a big victory for Trump.

PS: Before the AOC fans start to attack me about "no strong charismatic leader", you are free to disagree, but I dont consider her a viable candidate for national office. TBH, I initially thought she was just a left wing crackpot who would rapidly be voted out and disappear, but I have come to respect her for sticking to her beliefs and not being afraid to speak out. That said, I still dont think she has a chance at taking the Presidency from the Reps, she is just too polarizing, and yes, IMO too far to the left to win a national election.
 

Heartbreaker

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2006
4,914
6,434
136
I am afraid you are right. Add to that, the powerful right wing media and social media, and the fact that the Dems dont really have a strong, charismatic leader, and incomprehensibly, the Reps could stay in power for a long time. Evidence of this is the fact that after dropping to record lows, Trump's approval rating is starting to rebound. Like it or not, you also have to admit Trump is very adept at "flooding the zone" and manipulating the political environment.

IIRC it's also text book Machiavelli to do as much negative stuff all at once as is possible. Then trickle out a few good things later.
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
39,998
9,657
136
Your integrity is a joke. Nobody has refuted the fact (its not just a claim) of the Biden admins terrible immigration enforcement policy. Just keep drinking your own kool-aid and carry on with your delusion.
This is solid gaslighting. You're being dishonest.
 
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mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
20,001
14,332
136
Prosperity in western countries is basically at the highest level in human history. Plenty of room for improvement but to say that our civilization doesn't work for us seems crazy.

IMO if you can't think of any very serious problems in the US that are only going to get worse with either of the two current parties in power, then I don't think there can be a discussion here.

People generally don't want disruption in my opinion and when you actually try changing things people flip out. The reason why Democrats didn't sideline the insurance companies is most voters didn't want them to! The entire reason for 'if you like your doctor you can keep your doctor' was that among the top fears of people about the ACA was it would be disruptive.

When it comes to the second amendment there's nothing Democrats can do. It has nothing to do with half-hearted bullshit, it has to do with the fact that SCOTUS has declared most gun laws unconstitutional. Until you pack the court or replace enough of them there's nothing to be done. Now to be clear I'm in favor of both packing the court AND banning all guns but until you deal with SCOTUS nothing else can move.
And you're missing my point. "People don't want" and "nothing can be done" because of 100% man-made bullshit.

If we continue along our current path, humanity's epitaph is going to be that saving the planet/civilisation wasn't a profitable enough cause, it would have been a tough sell, it just wasn't a vote-winner. As much the fault of pandering bullshit artists as those who directly profit from things going to shit.
 
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