Did Biden move too far Left? ( can we move this discussion out of the Tariff Thread)

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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,454
54,215
136
Except Biden did eventually sign an executive order to limit border crossings, as I have pointed out over and over, yet the fact seems to be ignored. So yes, there was something he could have, and in fact did, do. Would it have effectively solved the problem if implemented earlier? Who knows, but at least it would have showed some kind of response.
Maybe he should have, but simply limiting border crossings does not alleviate the vast majority of the problems, problems the proposed bill addressed.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,454
54,215
136
I would agree with the gerrymandering, flooding the zone, and some voter suppression, but funding was certainly not the problem for the Dems. Harris spent around 1.5B to run a campaign that lost voters in almost every demographic.
Interestingly enough now that some of the most egregious gerrymanders have been struck down the percentage of house seats won by each party very closely reflected the national popular vote so gerrymandering (at least federally) was not a cause this time.
 

brycejones

Lifer
Oct 18, 2005
29,223
29,478
136
Except Biden did eventually sign an executive order to limit border crossings, as I have pointed out over and over, yet the fact seems to be ignored. So yes, there was something he could have, and in fact did, do. Would it have effectively solved the problem if implemented earlier? Who knows, but at least it would have showed some kind of response.
The majority of undocumented people entered the country legally and overstayed their visas focusing on border crossings makes for great propaganda tv but is really pretty shit for actually addressing undocumented migration.
 

manly

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
12,991
3,754
136
The majority of undocumented people entered the country legally and overstayed their visas focusing on border crossings makes for great propaganda tv but is really pretty shit for actually addressing undocumented migration.
ondma prefers that Biden would have ignored our existing asylum law, and flexed Title 42 or some equivalent. Perhaps executive action was the "better" electoral play, but I prefer that at least one of the two major parties has some integrity and faithfully honors the laws of our land. And we know it's not gonna be Trump's party...
 

GodisanAtheist

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2006
8,021
9,268
136
Its interesting how the border crisis was sort of taken as gospel.

For all the "flood of illegals"/ deportation news there is no less traffic, new fewer restaurants, and the local farms are still getting tilled and planted in my semi-rural community.

Granted this is in the California Bay Area, but that also means we have a disproportionately high number of illegals around as well vs something like Wyoming.
 

Reflex

Member
Sep 24, 2001
105
56
111
It seems important to note that he tried to do all the things you're saying he should have done (except the emergency) but Republicans refused to bring the bill up for a vote out of fears that it would pass and become law and Republicans desperately did not want that to happen.
The immigration bill he tried to pass did none of those things. He did not do anything to normalize the millions awaiting hearings. He did not staff for it, he did not declare it a strategy, he did not sign executive orders to prioritize it, he did not rebuild ICE or Homeland Security to make them about protecting the country rather than kicking brown people out.

He continued the Obama era policies of delay, detention and deportation. I have not seen a president in this country in my lifetime ever say "yes, these are good people who deserve a chance, lets give it to them and solve both our problems."

Btw, Portugal did this in 2011 and the result was an economic boom. Of course the far right is trying to undermine that story now, but the point is they did it and it worked.
 
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Reflex

Member
Sep 24, 2001
105
56
111
Except Biden did eventually sign an executive order to limit border crossings, as I have pointed out over and over, yet the fact seems to be ignored. So yes, there was something he could have, and in fact did, do. Would it have effectively solved the problem if implemented earlier? Who knows, but at least it would have showed some kind of response.
Plus the bill he did try to pass was an atrocity. The opposite of what needed to be done.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,236
14,236
136
I have not seen a president in this country in my lifetime ever say "yes, these are good people who deserve a chance, lets give it to them and solve both our problems."

This unfortunately is not good politics in this country. Proof of that is who we just put in the oval office.
 
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Reflex

Member
Sep 24, 2001
105
56
111
This unfortunately is not good politics in this country. Proof of that is who we just put in the oval office.
I've mentioned this in other threads but this is the failure of the Democratic party. By giving in on certain topics we have abandoned any alternative messaging on them. We let the far right chip away at the humanity of others based on what we believe is the popular point of view and abandoning our role in defining what the popular point of view is or could be.

In Lisbon in 2016 there were billboards espousing the greatness of immigration. Leftist political parties would put them up and there was a general consensus that fast track immigration (they had a one year from arrival to normalization with working privileges) process that was very successful. Portugal repeatedly had migrants Italy rejected diverted to Portugal and they benefited greatly from this.

But again, their left put in the work to make the case and show the results. Our 'left' believes that our case is self evident and we don't need to spend the time convincing people.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,454
54,215
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The immigration bill he tried to pass did none of those things. He did not do anything to normalize the millions awaiting hearings. He did not staff for it, he did not declare it a strategy, he did not sign executive orders to prioritize it, he did not rebuild ICE or Homeland Security to make them about protecting the country rather than kicking brown people out.

He continued the Obama era policies of delay, detention and deportation. I have not seen a president in this country in my lifetime ever say "yes, these are good people who deserve a chance, lets give it to them and solve both our problems."

Btw, Portugal did this in 2011 and the result was an economic boom. Of course the far right is trying to undermine that story now, but the point is they did it and it worked.
This is very clearly false. Where did you get this misinformation from?

If you’re interested in what the bill actually did it was a bunch of the things you wanted, for example additional staff to process claims. Armed with this knowledge does this change your opinion in the slightest? Let me guess - no. New information rarely does.

 
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Reflex

Member
Sep 24, 2001
105
56
111
This is very clearly false. Where did you get this misinformation from?

If you’re interested in what the bill actually did it was a bunch of the things you wanted, for example additional staff to process claims. Armed with this knowledge does this change your opinion in the slightest? Let me guess - no. New information rarely does.

I don't know if you are trolling or what, but this bill greatly expanded presidential power and would have been weaponized by Trump worse than what we are seeing today.

In order from the article -

1: This gives the president broad powers to expel immigrants at will, without due process. The exceptions are broad and vague. The president ironically is stripped of their ability to *not* expel migrants, refugees, asylum seekers, etc if levels are above a certain number, such as in a time of crisis. It also does not require sending people back to country of origin, simply designates Mexico as the dumping ground. Each provision reads worse than the last.

2: The summary on the link you gave was "Although these provisions will speed up the processing of asylum screenings for people arriving at the border, they will also make it more difficult for eligible asylum seekers to qualify and would likely increase denials of humanitarian protection to many who are in need." Need I say more?

3: This is status quo with current law, no change in either direction

4: Very minor increases for very specific circumstances, would not make any dent in the 7.6m people waiting.

5: This funding is weighted heavily towards investigation, detention and expulsion and is likely to reduce the ability of people to attain resident status rather than increase it. Plus funding an ineffective border wall.

In short, this proposal is mostly a giveaway to the president and law enforcement to increase their power to block migrants. By contrast my proposal was to rapidly process the 7.6 million people waiting, and when there was no criminal record to permit entry, residency and green cards while creating a class of immediately beneficial jobs for them to occupy. My target was to process all 7.6m within one year, and then maintain the new process for all others who arrive.

Did you not read my proposal? I'm unclear how you felt it at all was what Biden tried to get passed. Any bill that reduces the human right to claim asylum, refugee status or a better life is a violation of human rights and dignity.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,454
54,215
136
I don't know if you are trolling or what, but this bill greatly expanded presidential power and would have been weaponized by Trump worse than what we are seeing today.

In order from the article -

1: This gives the president broad powers to expel immigrants at will, without due process. The exceptions are broad and vague. The president ironically is stripped of their ability to *not* expel migrants, refugees, asylum seekers, etc if levels are above a certain number, such as in a time of crisis. It also does not require sending people back to country of origin, simply designates Mexico as the dumping ground. Each provision reads worse than the last.

2: The summary on the link you gave was "Although these provisions will speed up the processing of asylum screenings for people arriving at the border, they will also make it more difficult for eligible asylum seekers to qualify and would likely increase denials of humanitarian protection to many who are in need." Need I say more?

3: This is status quo with current law, no change in either direction

4: Very minor increases for very specific circumstances, would not make any dent in the 7.6m people waiting.

5: This funding is weighted heavily towards investigation, detention and expulsion and is likely to reduce the ability of people to attain resident status rather than increase it. Plus funding an ineffective border wall.

In short, this proposal is mostly a giveaway to the president and law enforcement to increase their power to block migrants. By contrast my proposal was to rapidly process the 7.6 million people waiting, and when there was no criminal record to permit entry, residency and green cards while creating a class of immediately beneficial jobs for them to occupy. My target was to process all 7.6m within one year, and then maintain the new process for all others who arrive.

Did you not read my proposal? I'm unclear how you felt it at all was what Biden tried to get passed. Any bill that reduces the human right to claim asylum, refugee status or a better life is a violation of human rights and dignity.
I read what you said and you made multiple false statements. All I did was note that, and I would hope you would appreciate this.

If you don’t like the bill that’s fine but it doesn’t change what was in it.
 
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blankslate

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2008
8,765
543
126
Biden moved left? At all?
This is pretty much the best response to the thread topic short and concise...

One could even argue that based on a past interview Mr. Warren "Oracle of Omaha" Buffett could arguably be more left than Biden on Tax policy...

It turned out that Mr. Buffett, with immense income from dividends and capital gains, paid far, far less as a fraction of his income than the secretaries or the clerks or anyone else in his office. Further, in conversation it came up that Mr. Buffett doesn’t use any tax planning at all. He just pays as the Internal Revenue Code requires. “How can this be fair?” he asked of how little he pays relative to his employees. “How can this be right?”

one seriously doubts given quotes that one can gather from Biden's on being paid by lobbyists (or not paid because he did have enough office time) that he would have such qualms as Buffett voiced.

Even though I agreed with him, I warned that whenever someone tried to raise the issue, he or she was accused of fomenting class warfare.
“There’s class warfare, all right,” Mr. Buffett said, “but it’s my class, the rich class, that’s making war, and we’re winning.”

but hey Biden did have two things on the positive side of his record...

he appointed Lina Kahn as chairperson of the FTC and Jonathan Kanter AG in charge of the Anti-Trust Division of the Justice Department.



___________
 

Reflex

Member
Sep 24, 2001
105
56
111
I read what you said and you made multiple false statements. All I did was note that, and I would hope you would appreciate this.

If you don’t like the bill that’s fine but it doesn’t change what was in it.
You stated that he tried to pass a bill that did most of what I suggested. It did not. In fact it does the opposite of most of what I suggested. Unclear what your confusion is here.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,454
54,215
136
You stated that he tried to pass a bill that did most of what I suggested. It did not. In fact it does the opposite of most of what I suggested. Unclear what your confusion is here.
Can you explain? Be as specific as possible.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,454
54,215
136
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Reflex

Member
Sep 24, 2001
105
56
111
Right but that was bullshit. You claimed the bill did nothing to, for example, speed processing. That was false.

Can you admit what you said about that was false? If you can, does that knowledge change your opinion at all? Again, unsurprisingly that seems to be no, haha.
As I listed in my rebuttal, it did so only in very specific circumstances and overall actually reduces the chances of migrants being granted a visa or residency. You stated "If you’re interested in what the bill actually did it was a bunch of the things you wanted" which is categorically false. That you can find one section that very slightly increased processing in a way that was actually detrimental to most migrants (ie: overall it's a reduction not the massive increase I called for) does not disprove my assertion. The very site you linked was extremely negative on it while maintaining a neutral tone.
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
40,205
9,810
136
I can dream. But throughout history when the pendulum swings to far one direction, we usually get an over correct and swing far the other way. Bernie is too old to probably run. AOC makes the most sense on the correct left
I would be overjoyed of AOC wins in 28, but given Hillary's and Kamala's losses I have to steel myself. My great prayer is for the Republican party to whither and die and quickly. Again, "prayers plow not." But AOC winning would mean the country has turned on the Republicans bigtime.
 

eelw

Lifer
Dec 4, 1999
10,220
5,325
136
Come on Joe. You need to stick around long enough so you can piss on the orange monkey’s grave before you go
 
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