Viper1j

Diamond Member
Jul 31, 2018
4,419
4,097
136
WTAF?





I’ve been following with a mixture of dismay and disgust Trump’s One Big Ugly Bill, soon to head to the Senate. I’ll report back to you on it.

But I want to alert you to one detail inside it that’s especially alarming. With one stroke, it would allow Trump to crown himself king.

As you know, Trump has been trying to neuter the courts by ignoring them.

The Supreme Court has told Trump to “facilitate” the return of Abrego Garcia, a legal resident of the United States whom even the Trump regime admits was erroneously sent to a brutal prison in El Salvador. Trump has essentially thumbed his nose at the Court by doing nothing.

Lower federal courts have told him to stop deporting migrants without giving them a chance to know the charges against them and have the charges and evidence reviewed by a neutral judge or magistrate (the minimum of due process). Again, nothing.

Judge James Boasberg, Chief Judge of the federal district court for the District of Columbia, issued a temporary restraining order preventing the Trump regime from flying individuals to the prison in El Salvador without due process.

Judge Boasberg has found that the Trump regime has willfully disregarded his order.

What can the courts do in response to Trump’s open defiance of the judges and justices?

The courts have one power to make their orders stick: holding federal officials in contempt and enforcing such contempt citations against them.

Enforcing a contempt citation means fining or jailing the Trump lawyers who argue before them, and possibly invoking contempt all the way up the line to Trump.

Boasberg said that if Trump’s legal team does not give the dozens of Venezuelan men sent to the Salvadorian prison a chance to legally challenge their removal, he’ll begin contempt proceedings against the administration.

In a separate case, U.S. District Court Judge Paula Xinis has demanded that the Trump administration explain why it is not complying with the Supreme Court order to “facilitate” the release of Abrego Garcia.

Xinis questions whether the administration intends to comply with the order at all, citing a statement from U.S. Department of Homeland Security chief Kristi Noem that Abrego Garcia "will never be allowed to return to the United States." According to Xinis, "That sounds to me like an admission. That's about as clear as it can get."

So what’s next? Will the Supreme Court and lower courts hold the administration in contempt and enforce contempt citations?

Not if the Big Ugly Bill is enacted with the following provision, now hidden in the bill:

“No court of the United States may use appropriated funds to enforce a contempt citation for failure to comply with an injunction or temporary restraining order if no security was given when the injunction or order was issued….”

Translated: No federal court may enforce a contempt citation.

Obviously, courts need appropriated funds to do anything because Congress appropriates money to enable the courts to function. To require a security or bond to be given in civil proceedings seeking to stop alleged abuses by the federal government would effectively immunize such conduct from judicial review because those seeking such court orders generally don’t have the resources to post a bond.

Hence, with a stroke, the provision removes the judiciary’s capacity to hold officials in contempt.

As U.C. Berkeley School of Law Dean and Distinguished Professor of Law Erwin Chemerinsky notes, this provision would eliminate any restraint on Trump.

‘Without the contempt power, judicial orders are meaningless and can be ignored. There is no way to understand this except as a way to keep the Trump administration from being restrained when it violates the Constitution or otherwise breaks the law. …

‘This would be a stunning restriction on the power of the federal courts. The Supreme Court has long recognized that the contempt power is integral to the authority of the federal courts. Without the ability to enforce judicial orders, they are rendered mere advisory opinions which parties are free to disregard.”

With this single provision, in other words, Trump will have crowned himself king. No congress and no court could stop him. Even if a future Congress were to try to stop him, it could not do so without the power of the courts to enforce their hearings, investigations, subpoenas, and laws.

What can you do? To begin with, call your members of Congress and tell them not to pass Trump’s One Big Ugly Bill.
 

gothuevos

Diamond Member
Jul 28, 2010
3,168
2,312
136
Who cares, not like the "contempt power" was stopping him before.

Besides, who enforces any contempt proceedings? Hint: it's not the judiciary. It was meaningless to begin with.
 
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mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
20,043
14,415
136
The bill is irrelevant. It's an attempt to make the status quo "official", whether the bill passes or not won't make any difference to what's going on and that America has suspended being a functional, accountable democracy.

The easiest and quickest fix is for the GQP and GQP supporters to start holding the administration accountable to a vaguely reasonable standard of decency.
 
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gothuevos

Diamond Member
Jul 28, 2010
3,168
2,312
136
The bill is irrelevant. It's an attempt to make the status quo "official", whether the bill passes or not won't make any difference to what's going on and that America has suspended being a functional, accountable democracy.

The easiest and quickest fix is for the GQP and GQP supporters to start holding the administration accountable to a vaguely reasonable standard of decency.
Even if the courts could order US Marshalls to arrest based on contempt charges, they would probably refuse. Like most other LEOs, they probably overwhelmingly support Trump anyway.

This entire scenario is just an exercise in futility.
 
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ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
33,241
16,554
136
In theory, if this passed the senate as is and because of this provision, could the Supreme Court invalidate the entire bill for violating the constitution?
 
Dec 10, 2005
27,605
12,009
136
Even if the courts could order US Marshalls to arrest based on contempt charges, they would probably refuse. Like most other LEOs, they probably overwhelmingly support Trump anyway.

This entire scenario is just an exercise in futility.
Continually giving into nihilism helps create an environment where it is easier for people to ignore their legal and moral obligations.

Have you considered therapy instead of nihilistic Internet posting?
 

gothuevos

Diamond Member
Jul 28, 2010
3,168
2,312
136
Continually giving into nihilism helps create an environment where it is easier for people to ignore their legal and moral obligations.

Have you considered therapy instead of nihilistic Internet posting?

These "legal and moral obligations" have already been trampled beyond the point of recognition.

But resist, I guess.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
16,802
15,813
146
Continually giving into nihilism helps create an environment where it is easier for people to ignore their legal and moral obligations.

Have you considered therapy instead of nihilistic Internet posting?
He isn't wrong. The SC has no enforcement mechanism over the president as far as I'm aware. At least not any enforcement mechanism that Trump would care about, I guess.
 
Dec 10, 2005
27,605
12,009
136
He isn't wrong. The SC has no enforcement mechanism over the president as far as I'm aware. At least not any enforcement mechanism that Trump would care about, I guess.
Yes. But why help foster an atmosphere where people feel it's okay to ignore the rules? Society and government only work when there is a general agreement to follow the framework. Constitutions and laws are just words and paper. They only have meaning because we decide they do and choose to follow them.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
16,802
15,813
146
Yes. But why help foster an atmosphere where people feel it's okay to ignore the rules? Society and government only work when there is a general agreement to follow the framework. Constitutions and laws are just words and paper. They only have meaning because we decide they do and choose to follow them.
... Right, but we don't affect that, only Congress does. If the only enforcement arm of the executive branch does nothing, then it is okay to ignore the rules, you get that right? Just because you don't like it does not mean it's not an actual event taking place.
 
Dec 10, 2005
27,605
12,009
136
... Right, but we don't affect that, only Congress does. If the only enforcement arm of the executive branch does nothing, then it is okay to ignore the rules, you get that right? Just because you don't like it does not mean it's not an actual event taking place.
And there are lots of people below the top of government. They don't operate in a vacuum. If you can't get the top people to follow the law, at least you can try an instill a feeling that people should still care about these things as a last line of immunity. Widespread public nihilism isn't something that is easily turned off if winds change.
 

Pens1566

Lifer
Oct 11, 2005
13,198
10,584
136
Yes. But why help foster an atmosphere where people feel it's okay to ignore the rules? Society and government only work when there is a general agreement to follow the framework. Constitutions and laws are just words and paper. They only have meaning because we decide they do and choose to follow them.

I don't see it as "fostering" it. More like highlighting it, pointing it out, acknowledging the reality of it.
 

Pens1566

Lifer
Oct 11, 2005
13,198
10,584
136
It’s normalizing it. This isn’t ok regardless of whether or not there is an enforcement mechanism.

I don't think anyone is normalizing it ... plenty of people screaming about it though.

The alternative seems to be to not mention it? Kind of like if you never test for a disease, it's not really there.
 
Dec 10, 2005
27,605
12,009
136
I don't think anyone is normalizing it ... plenty of people screaming about it though.

The alternative seems to be to not mention it? Kind of like if you never test for a disease, it's not really there.
I think it's just the framing. It's not to not talk about it, it's to frame it positively as this is what should/must be, because then people can correctly identify the problem to use as a political club (the president and crew are not following and faithfully executing the law) instead of resorting to the nihilistic view of "they aren't going to follow the law anyway".
 

Pens1566

Lifer
Oct 11, 2005
13,198
10,584
136
Accepting/acknowledging negative realities in life != nihilism. That would require some form of being ok with it as well. I don't see anyone suggesting that they're ok with it (Stephen Miller not included).
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
38,181
31,033
136
Even if the courts could order US Marshalls to arrest based on contempt charges, they would probably refuse. Like most other LEOs, they probably overwhelmingly support Trump anyway.

This entire scenario is just an exercise in futility.
Courts could assemble their own armed militia and I'm sure they would get hundreds of volunteers.

PS - looked it up apparently that is not an option. Courts without DOJ enforcement of contempt don't have the ability to enforce
 
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nakedfrog

No Lifer
Apr 3, 2001
61,341
16,869
136
Courts could assemble their own armed militia and I'm sure they would get hundreds of volunteers.

PS - looked it up apparently that is not an option. Courts without DOJ enforcement of contempt don't have the ability to enforce
I am not a legal scholar, obviously, so can't speak to the validity of these claims.

 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
38,181
31,033
136
I am not a legal scholar, obviously, so can't speak to the validity of these claims.

I used ChatGPT

This is where lawyers would do a back and forth. I did notice in the info I found citizens can be deputized if the contempt is criminal vs civil. Again, they would get lots of volunteers.
 
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