Discussion [Speculation] Working silicon that must exist because I don't see why it wouldn't

Page 2 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

DavidC1

Golden Member
Dec 29, 2023
1,529
2,516
96
im actually waiting for Ram to go obselete with Gen7 or Gen8 nVME's replacing RAM / Storage all together.
Gen5 is i think considered faster then DDR4 in a RAID-0 utilizing a full 16x PCI-E slot.

I think by Gen7 we may see the DDR slot disappear all together.
How? NAND flash has terrible latency. You could have 1TB/s NVMe drive and you still couldn't replace DRAM. Optane DIMMs were 100x faster in this regard and it was still significantly behind DRAM.
 

aigomorla

CPU, Cases&Cooling Mod PC Gaming Mod Elite Member
Super Moderator
Sep 28, 2005
21,034
3,514
126
Have you set that up in your TR system?
No not with PCI-E 5.0.

How? NAND flash has terrible latency. You could have 1TB/s NVMe drive and you still couldn't replace DRAM. Optane DIMMs were 100x faster in this regard and it was still significantly behind DRAM.
I am predicting by the time we hit Gen7 the PCI-E Lanes will be Gen.7 as well, and will probably work itself out as the PCI-E lanes are all tied directly to the CPU now.

Its like how you look at SCI FI movies and see how everything is based off iso crystals or some sort.
I am thinking that will be the RAM / OS / Storage all in 1 part, and the CPU/GPU/Motherboard will be its own.
 

DavidC1

Golden Member
Dec 29, 2023
1,529
2,516
96
Its like how you look at SCI FI movies and see how everything is based off iso crystals or some sort.
I am thinking that will be the RAM / OS / Storage all in 1 part, and the CPU/GPU/Motherboard will be its own.
That changes nothing. NAND tech itself is limited to about 50-100us, and that's under random reads. It's literally 1000x the difference. Writes are worse because you need write-delete-write cycle, which is so slow that without DRAM buffer it would be absolutely unusable beyond 1-bit SLC SSDs. Under random writes, bufferless 2-bit NAND is in the slow HDD range for speed. Even DRAM-less SSDs use tricks such as using system DRAM or SLC caches.

The purpose of a DRAM buffer is the controller keeps a table where it maps addresses of the NAND chip in a certain fixed ratio, and clears them as necessary. So a 1GB DRAM on 1TB SSD means it has 1:1000 ratio. So in very simple terms, 1 byte in DRAM has to contain 1 location in NAND, and a page in this case is 1000 bytes.

So even on SSDs, it's all about the DRAM.

DRAM is anywhere from 50-150ns. It's incomparable. Who cares about direct CPU connections when you are that slow?

Not to mention your fancy combined drive will die in a few days because DRAM is essentially unlimited while NAND is severely limited and needs all sorts of tricks such as wear levelling. Optane DIMMs showed promise because it had 200ns random reads, and 500ns random writes, along with the 5 year warranty for 24/7 writes, which would work out to be in the 1-10 million cycles per cell range, or 500 Petabytes for a 256GB Optane DIMM. At 500x the random read speed, it came rather close to the "1000x faster" claim.

The really old MLC SSDs with much more robust 60nm lithographies were in the 10K cycle per cell. Now you are talking 1-3000 with TLCs.
 
Last edited:

Thunder 57

Diamond Member
Aug 19, 2007
3,717
6,276
136
im actually waiting for Ram to go obselete with Gen7 or Gen8 nVME's replacing RAM / Storage all together.
Gen5 is i think considered faster then DDR4 in a RAID-0 utilizing a full 16x PCI-E slot.

I think by Gen7 we may see the DDR slot disappear all together.

How? NAND flash has terrible latency. You could have 1TB/s NVMe drive and you still couldn't replace DRAM. Optane DIMMs were 100x faster in this regard and it was still significantly behind DRAM.

I was going to post was @DavidC1 said but he beat me to it, twice. My first concern was the limited lifespan of NAND, but latency would be a huge factor that I did not even consider at first. CPU's need low latency.

How many times have you had DRAM fail? I did once. And since any that is worth a crap has a lifetime warranty all I had to do was put in the RMA "Failed in Memtest86" and I got a free replacement.

If anything I wish Intel/Micron didn't give up on Optane. The performance low low QD levels was unbeatable. Just a bit too pricey to be worth it for the mass market I guess.
 
Reactions: DavidC1

DavidC1

Golden Member
Dec 29, 2023
1,529
2,516
96
How many times have you had DRAM fail? I did once. And since any that is worth a crap has a lifetime warranty all I had to do was put in the RMA "Failed in Memtest86" and I got a free replacement.
They fail of course, but it's normal variations, and unpredictable one at that. But NAND lifecycles? It's predictable. It's low enough that while most of us may never experience it, it's within realms of plausibility.
If anything I wish Intel/Micron didn't give up on Optane. The performance low low QD levels was unbeatable. Just a bit too pricey to be worth it for the mass market I guess.
I really think it had potential, but I get their point. If they succeeded, then eventually they would have had to compete in a low margin market, which is basically moderate amount of money unless you are #1.

And the road to getting there? One analyst said you need to be 1/10th volume to succeed in fulfilling the promises of cost. 1/10th volume of NAND or DRAM, man oh man that's not just successful, but a wildly successful one.

Intel would have not only had to have perfect execution, but willingness to work with everyone, competition or not(ARM, AMD), and grind for years at that. Gelsinger trained under Andy Grove. He was famous for shifting Intel away from system memory into CPUs, which were much more profitable. This would have to be a big shift significantly back into it.
 

Doug S

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2020
3,197
5,490
136
I was going to post was @DavidC1 said but he beat me to it, twice. My first concern was the limited lifespan of NAND, but latency would be a huge factor that I did not even consider at first. CPU's need low latency.

How many times have you had DRAM fail? I did once. And since any that is worth a crap has a lifetime warranty all I had to do was put in the RMA "Failed in Memtest86" and I got a free replacement.

If anything I wish Intel/Micron didn't give up on Optane. The performance low low QD levels was unbeatable. Just a bit too pricey to be worth it for the mass market I guess.


There's a third problem he's also overlooking, granularity. NAND writes happen in pages that are far far larger than cache lines. So even if you had magic NAND with unlimited write cycles, no erase required before write, and latency comparable to DRAM you'd STILL have to re-architect the entire caching layer to be able to handle a last level/system level cache to have line sizes that matched the page size of the NAND you were using.

And all that is for what? What's the gain here? Not having DIMM slots? Oh yay, the boards can be made a bit smaller, that TOTALLY sounds worth all this effort!
 
sale-70-410-exam    | Exam-200-125-pdf    | we-sale-70-410-exam    | hot-sale-70-410-exam    | Latest-exam-700-603-Dumps    | Dumps-98-363-exams-date    | Certs-200-125-date    | Dumps-300-075-exams-date    | hot-sale-book-C8010-726-book    | Hot-Sale-200-310-Exam    | Exam-Description-200-310-dumps?    | hot-sale-book-200-125-book    | Latest-Updated-300-209-Exam    | Dumps-210-260-exams-date    | Download-200-125-Exam-PDF    | Exam-Description-300-101-dumps    | Certs-300-101-date    | Hot-Sale-300-075-Exam    | Latest-exam-200-125-Dumps    | Exam-Description-200-125-dumps    | Latest-Updated-300-075-Exam    | hot-sale-book-210-260-book    | Dumps-200-901-exams-date    | Certs-200-901-date    | Latest-exam-1Z0-062-Dumps    | Hot-Sale-1Z0-062-Exam    | Certs-CSSLP-date    | 100%-Pass-70-383-Exams    | Latest-JN0-360-real-exam-questions    | 100%-Pass-4A0-100-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-300-135-exams-date    | Passed-200-105-Tech-Exams    | Latest-Updated-200-310-Exam    | Download-300-070-Exam-PDF    | Hot-Sale-JN0-360-Exam    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Exams    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-JN0-360-exams-date    | Exam-Description-1Z0-876-dumps    | Latest-exam-1Z0-876-Dumps    | Dumps-HPE0-Y53-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-HPE0-Y53-Exam    | 100%-Pass-HPE0-Y53-Real-Exam-Questions    | Pass-4A0-100-Exam    | Latest-4A0-100-Questions    | Dumps-98-365-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-98-365-Exam    | 100%-Pass-VCS-254-Exams    | 2017-Latest-VCS-273-Exam    | Dumps-200-355-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-300-320-Exam    | Pass-300-101-Exam    | 100%-Pass-300-115-Exams    |
http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    | http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    |