Discussion AMD's Soundwave ARM APU: The Beginning of Transformation !!!

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Jan Olšan

Senior member
Jan 12, 2017
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Upcoming Q1? X Elite 2 should honestly embarrass Panther Lake CPU wise.


Apples not a chip maker, makes sense why they leave it out as the chips only come with their devices.

However, Qualcomm doesn’t and that’s weird….
It's a norm in the mobile/ARM ecosystem as such (or perhaps x86/PC is the odd helpful one in the first place).

Have you ever seen TDP value quoted for *any* phone SoC?
 

poke01

Diamond Member
Mar 8, 2022
3,510
4,833
106
Have you ever seen TDP value quoted for *any* phone SoC?
Nope

TDPs are funny in laptops and frankly kinda useless especially the way Intel implements them.

Take the 226V, Intel rates the turbo TDP as 37watts maximum but the SoC goes up to 55 watts under full load which Intel does not mention. The base TDP is 17watts which is only useful if turbo boost is turned off.


And the way AMD implements them on mobile CPUs is better but still vague, they give a default TDP and a configurable TDP.
 
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Doug S

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2020
3,193
5,477
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It's a norm in the mobile/ARM ecosystem as such (or perhaps x86/PC is the odd helpful one in the first place).

Have you ever seen TDP value quoted for *any* phone SoC?

Why would they? It is meaningless since you can't choose another CPU for your phone or build your own. It started in the PC world because you can select different models with different CPUs, or buy a CPU and install it in a board yourself and you need to know what kind of cooling it requires.
 

fastandfurious6

Senior member
Jun 1, 2024
557
713
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Zen6 with 12-core and 48MB L3 cache will be fabbed by N3P process, not N2 as last rumor leaked. Zen6c with 32-core and 128MB die will be fabbed by N2 process.

can't be true......

if true then amd will lose #1.... why would they concede lead just to save some bucks?
 

Tigerick

Senior member
Apr 1, 2022
762
717
106
7. Zen 7 no more - Prometheus is AMD's first custom ARM core after Soundwave.
Lisa Su says AMD is on track to a 100x power efficiency improvement by 2027.

Remember Lisa Su mentioned AMD is going to achieve 100x (times not percentages) power efficiency improvement by 2027. Verano seems to be the platform for it. No, it is not Zen6c platform refresh (Venice with 256-core consumes about 600W TDP), it is going to be new ARM platform with focus on power efficiency so that AMD could divert the power onto GPU/AI just like NV's Vera.

NV's Vera is targeting for end of 2026. AMD's Verona is a total platform solution, the CPU cores could be ready by those times as well. If I have to guess, Qualcomm's ARM server CPU could be ready by end of 2026/2027 pending roadmap unveiling. And the man behind all the changes is Microsoft's WoA Server Edition. Just like client platform, Microsoft is the one initiated and set the rules (70TOPS AI) for upcoming WoA 12. It is the new operating system for next decade focusing on AI. Qualcomm, NV, AMD and Mediatek are going to pursue the opportunity. Except Intel , that's why Intel bets heavily on foundry business..

If 70 TOPS is mandatory requirement for Windows 12, AMD's Gorgon Point and Intel's PTL are not able to meet Co-Pilot++ status. I bet all new ARM SoCs are able to achieve that including AMD's Soundwave.

I have already done explaining the changes behind in the past pages, let's wait for Soundwave and WoA12 unveiling...
 
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inquiss

Senior member
Oct 13, 2010
456
673
136
Lisa Su says AMD is on track to a 100x power efficiency improvement by 2027.

Remember Lisa Su mentioned AMD is going to achieve 100x (times not percentages) power efficiency improvement by 2027. Verano seems to be the platform for it. No, it is not Zen6c platform refresh (Venice with 256-core consumes about 600W TDP), it is going to be new ARM platform with focus on power efficiency so that AMD could divert the power onto GPU/AI just like NV's Vera.

NV's Vera is targeting for end of 2026. AMD's Verona is a total platform solution, the CPU cores could be ready by those times as well. If I have to guess, Qualcomm's ARM server CPU could be ready by end of 2026/2027 pending roadmap unveiling. And the man behind all the changes is Microsoft's WoA Server Edition. Just like client platform, Microsoft is the one initiated and set the rules (70TOPS AI) for upcoming WoA 12. It is the new operating system for next decade focusing on AI. Qualcomm, NV, AMD and Mediatek are going to pursue the opportunity. Except Intel , that's why Intel bets heavily on foundry business..

If 70 TOPS is mandatory requirement for Windows 12, AMD's Gorgon Point and Intel's PTL are not able to meet Co-Pilot++ status. I bet all new ARM SoCs are able to achieve that including AMD's Soundwave.

I have already done explaining the changes behind in the past pages, let's wait for Soundwave and WoA12 unveiling...
So that I understand, they spent a bunch of time convincing people that you need more CPU grunt to get the most out of GPU. You think that AMD doing a from scratch Arm design is the way they will get above zen 6 performance?
 

StefanR5R

Elite Member
Dec 10, 2016
6,516
10,152
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This figure is about datacenter-level power efficiency in model training, and it takes not only efficiency gains per node and of the rack-level and DC-level interconnects into account, but also speculated software advances. I.e., the figure includes more than AMD's own part of it.

The figure also has a lot to do with the fact that AMD doesn't have an actual integrated rack-level AI solution on the market before 2026, unlike a certain competitor.

Finally, AMD proposing this figure also has a lot to do with countering potential concerns of investors regarding the "The Limits to Growth" (you may want to look it up if it doesn't ring a bell) in AI.
 
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Panino Manino

Golden Member
Jan 28, 2017
1,102
1,346
136
Podcast Advent of Computing released an episode about the iAPX286, which got me thinking again.
Besides how "bad" Intel was at that time, that maybe we have am opportunity to get rid of the x86 legacy.
Suppose AMD gets really serious about their ARM CPUs and in a feel years their ARM are as good or better than their Ryzen CPUs. If Intel once again misses the timing and Qualcomm is still trying to bring their CPUs to the desktop and Windows, couldn't the market agree to make the switch? Legacy software could still be run by emulation.

Because one day we'll eventually move on from x86, right?
Can't this day start in the next three years?
 

Thunder 57

Diamond Member
Aug 19, 2007
3,704
6,251
136
Podcast Advent of Computing released an episode about the iAPX286, which got me thinking again.
Besides how "bad" Intel was at that time, that maybe we have am opportunity to get rid of the x86 legacy.
Suppose AMD gets really serious about their ARM CPUs and in a feel years their ARM are as good or better than their Ryzen CPUs. If Intel once again misses the timing and Qualcomm is still trying to bring their CPUs to the desktop and Windows, couldn't the market agree to make the switch? Legacy software could still be run by emulation.

Because one day we'll eventually move on from x86, right?
Can't this day start in the next three years?

I'd bet AMD has some ARM project hidden away, but I doubt that is their priority. Why compete with many when you can compete with one?
 
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Cheesecake16

Junior Member
Aug 5, 2020
12
54
91
This figure is about datacenter-level power efficiency in model training, and it takes not only efficiency gains per node and of the rack-level and DC-level interconnects into account, but also speculated software advances. I.e., the figure includes more than AMD's own part of it.

The figure also has a lot to do with the fact that AMD doesn't have an actual integrated rack-level AI solution on the market before 2026, unlike a certain competitor.

Finally, AMD proposing this figure also has a lot to do with countering potential concerns of investors regarding the "The Limits to Growth" (you may want to look it up if it doesn't ring a bell) in AI.
Ehhh... I would disagree with calling the NVL72 system a rackscale system as it isn't actually a single system image (SSI) across the whole NVL72 as there are actually 18 system images in a NVL72 system (1 per compute node). Which actually means that the DGX/HGX system is the most GPUs you can get in a single system image, which is the same as the MI350X platform.

Now, if MI400 also isn't a SSI then I would also not call that a rackscale system either... and honestly, SGI beat them all to a rackscale system back in the early '00s with the Altix 3000 series of supercomputers.
 
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StefanR5R

Elite Member
Dec 10, 2016
6,516
10,152
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(OT) SSI has remained a niche in supercomputing. SSI or not, what matters is that your accelerators have local memory and then there is remote memory, and your application has got to deal with that. As for AI, I admit I am not into it and am not informed what the actual state-of-the art scaling factors [or feasible model sizes] are with one vendor or the other once multiple nodes are involved.
 
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