Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

Tigerick · Aug 22, 2022

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.

Comparison of upcoming Intel's U-series CPU: Core Ultra 100U, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

Model	Code-Name	Date	TDP	Node	Tiles	Main Tile	CPU	LP E-Core	LLC	GPU	Xe-cores
Core Ultra 100U	Meteor Lake	Q4 2023	15 - 57 W	Intel 4 + N5 + N6	4	tCPU	2P + 8E	2	12 MB	Intel Graphics	4
?	Lunar Lake	Q4 2024	17 - 30 W	N3B + N6	2	CPU + GPU & IMC	4P + 4E	0	12 MB	Arc	8
?	Panther Lake	Q1 2026 ?	?	Intel 18A + N3E	3	CPU + MC	4P + 8E	4	?	Arc	12

Comparison of die size of Each Tile of Meteor Lake, Arrow Lake, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

	Meteor Lake	Arrow Lake (N3B)	Lunar Lake	Panther Lake
Platform	Mobile H/U Only	Desktop & Mobile H&HX	Mobile U Only	Mobile H
Process Node	Intel 4	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	Intel 18A
Date	Q4 2023	Desktop-Q4-2024 H&HX-Q1-2025	Q4 2024	Q1 2026 ?
Full Die	6P + 8P	8P + 16E	4P + 4E	4P + 8E
LLC	24 MB	36 MB ?	12 MB	?
tCPU	66.48
tGPU	44.45
SoC	96.77
IOE	44.45
Total	252.15

Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake

As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)

511 · Saturday at 3:25 PM

Thibsie said:
Yeah, but might thread 'eat' the second core cache ? I mean, both core will compte for cache then, no ?
Also, more read/write ports could slow cache access (speed/latency) or augment complexity ?
This might be completely false, I dunno much about cache workings.

It will depend how the cache is shared when mutliple cores access it does each core get a equal amount or not?

DavidC1 · Saturday at 6:04 PM

Io Magnesso said:
There are rumors that the NEX division will be given up, but the network/wifi I don't think it's possible to let go
I think that the dismantling of the NEX division will be merely a change of personnel within the Intel company.

This looks more than that.

Quote from Reuters:

And Intel’s networking business too may be sold, because companies such as Broadcom have a tight grip on crucial portions of that market, another source said.

Yea, Intel will be a skeleton afterwards.

If they sell the WiFi division, it's going to be a mistake. There is some sort of synergy between products that work together and work well. Their WiFi for example have great performance, have low power, and drivers too. Broadcom may be better than Realtek, but they are not Intel level for client.

First thing I do on an older laptop is upgrade to Intel WiFi, because it actually allows the CPU to reach lower C7/8 power states.

Lip-Bu Tan does not get it. Intel's successes were because they drove the market in standards and compatibility, and that in turn benefitted the PC market.

People probably don't care as much now, but AMD even now doesn't do a fraction of pushing the ecosystem. x86 vs ARM race is ever more closer to reaching the finish line, and it looks like we can discern who the winner is. That is why the DIY market will really die, despite nauseatingly endless claims that "Desktop PC is dead". You'll see when it's really dead.

poke01 · Sunday at 1:05 AM

interesting

adroc_thurston · Sunday at 1:15 AM

poke01 said:
View attachment 125668

interesting

Not news?

DrMrLordX · Sunday at 1:17 AM

poke01 said:
interesting

How old is that? Arrow Lake on 20a clearly didn't happen.

igor_kavinski · Sunday at 1:41 AM

Razer Lake on 14A in 2027 looks a tad bit ambitious, no? Why they skippin' 16A? Found some magic wand to make a bigger node jump from 18A?

poke01 · Sunday at 1:48 AM

adroc_thurston said:
Not news?

news to me, didn't know razor lake used N2P

Io Magnesso · Sunday at 2:27 AM

Yes, his WiFi product is excellent and he provides a solid driver, so it's easy to use on Linux.
Moreover, Intel is very good at establishing standards. Much better than AMD and ARM.
I can agree with that
However, it is unthinkable to sell network-related products.

511 · Sunday at 3:03 AM

poke01 said:
View attachment 125668

interesting

He doesn't even know the SKU there is no arrow lake P as well and 20A version got canned 🤣.
Razer Lake S looks like a refresh to me

igor_kavinski · Sunday at 3:46 AM

511 said:
Razer Lake S looks like a refresh to me

Refresh on better node? So just a straight die shrink?

511 · Sunday at 4:12 AM

igor_kavinski said:
Refresh on better node? So just a straight die shrink?

i said looks like lol i don't know for sure.
Razer Lake is based on Griffin Cove the last P core before we get Unified Core also Razer Lake also contains LNL Successor RZL-M from this patch

https://twitter.com/x/status/1875246620448846178

MS_AT · Sunday at 5:41 AM

Btw, what is the idea with unified core. Will they go back to using only one core type, or will it be more like Strix Point with two physical implementations of the same core?

511 · Sunday at 5:46 AM

looks like it developing multiple core takes lot's of resources. They want to have one core with multiple implementation rather than two separate cores.

Tigerick · Sunday at 8:03 AM

511 said:
i said looks like lol i don't know for sure.
Razer Lake is based on Griffin Cove the last P core before we get Unified Core also Razer Lake also contains LNL Successor RZL-M from this patch

https://twitter.com/x/status/1875246620448846178

Hmm, instead of PTL-U, now we got PTL-P which should have 28W TDP. Another false claim of LNL efficiency by Intel...

And don't expect similar performance with ARL-H......In fact, Gorgon Point should have slighly faster performance than PTL-H....

511 · Sunday at 8:17 AM

Tigerick said:
Hmm, instead of PTL-U, now we got PTL-P which should have 28W TDP. Another false claim of LNL efficiency by Intel...

TDP != Efficiency also if anything Intel's naming is way better than AMD 🤣 . AMD Naming is cringe.
also on PTL-P isn't that the SKU with 12 Xe3 iGPU?

Tigerick said:
And don't expect similar performance with ARL-H......In fact, Gorgon Point should have slighly faster performance than PTL-H....

I was not expecting much higher peak MT from PTL tbh 10% above ARL-H in both single and multi will do as long as the battery life is in similar range to LNL.

Io Magnesso · Sunday at 8:17 AM

Tigerick said:
Hmm, instead of PTL-U, now we got PTL-P which should have 28W TDP. Another false claim of LNL efficiency by Intel...

And don't expect similar performance with ARL-H......In fact, Gorgon Point should have slighly faster performance than PTL-H....

You won't know until you actually see the real thing…
GPUs will be faster

Io Magnesso · Sunday at 8:20 AM

And the Panther Lake-U should still be there

AMDK11 · Sunday at 11:40 AM

Is it true that ArrowLake no longer has a ring bus? That it uses mesh entirely?

511 · Sunday at 11:41 AM

AMDK11 said:
Is it true that ArrowLake no longer has a ring bus? That it uses mesh entirely?

It still uses ring bus albeit a very slow one at 80 something cycles RING/LLC

Doug S · Sunday at 4:25 PM

igor_kavinski said:
Why they skippin' 16A? Found some magic wand to make a bigger node jump from 18A?

Intel never had a 16A, so there's nothing to skip. You're confusing it with TSMC A16.

DavidC1 · Sunday at 5:45 PM

You can't trust "AI" for facts, because it often makes stuff up, but with the arrogance that it's completely right, until it's corrected.*

Core logic count couldn't have jumped that much because it's the most power hungry part of the core, and die size shows otherwise. So it took just 33% go Sunny Cove for 20%, but the next iteration took 220% for the same, and the one after that took nearly 100% for just 10%?

Also it calls Skylake "compact and efficient"?

If it was a human, I'd say it's trolling you.

No — there's no clear winner.
Intel’s Lion Cove and AMD’s Zen 5 use two fundamentally different approaches to branch prediction (PBU), each optimized for different execution styles and workloads.

LOL, Lion Cove underperforms in some cases compared to the predecessor. Zen 5 is miles ahead.

poke01 · Sunday at 5:59 PM

DavidC1 said:
You can't trust "AI" for facts, because it often makes stuff up, but with the arrogance that it's completely right, until it's corrected.*

Core logic count couldn't have jumped that much because it's the most power hungry part of the core, and die size shows otherwise. So it took just 33% go Sunny Cove for 20%, but the next iteration took 220% for the same, and the one after that took nearly 100% for just 10%?

Also it calls Skylake "compact and efficient"?

If it was a human, I'd say it's trolling you.

LOL, Lion Cove underperforms in some cases compared to the predecessor. Zen 5 is miles ahead.

Everything sucks about Lion Cove, the only saving factor was that it was made on the most dense node. Otherwise, the PPA would have been so embarrassing, a donkey could have done a better job.

Io Magnesso · Sunday at 6:47 PM

poke01 said:
Everything sucks about Lion Cove, the only saving factor was that it was made on the most dense node. Otherwise, the PPA would have been so embarrassing, a donkey could have done a better job.

Well, the performance is the worst, but at least I think it should be connected to the bottom...
I hear it's easier to design

Io Magnesso · Sunday at 7:03 PM

Even so, I feel that Lion Cove has become much smaller than Raptor Cove.
I'm not defending Lion Cove...
It's terrible, but compared to Intel's Pentium D and AMD's FX, Compared to these I think the CPU that has not been well received recently is still better.

igor_kavinski · Sunday at 7:18 PM

It's like trying to get a child to think better. What is 2+2? 5? Are you sure? Ummm....6? Think harder!

Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

Senior member

Attachments

Platinum Member

Golden Member

Diamond Member

Diamond Member

Lifer

Lifer

Diamond Member

Member

Platinum Member

Lifer

Platinum Member

Senior member

Platinum Member

Senior member

Platinum Member

Member

Member

Senior member

Platinum Member

Diamond Member

Golden Member

Diamond Member

Member

Member

Lifer