Discussion Leading Edge Foundry Node advances (TSMC, Samsung Foundry, Intel) - [2020 - 2025]

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DisEnchantment

Golden Member
Mar 3, 2017
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TSMC's N7 EUV is now in its second year of production and N5 is contributing to revenue for TSMC this quarter. N3 is scheduled for 2022 and I believe they have a good chance to reach that target.


N7 performance is more or less understood.


This year and next year TSMC is mainly increasing capacity to meet demands.

For Samsung the nodes are basically the same from 7LPP to 4 LPE, they just add incremental scaling boosters while the bulk of the tech is the same.

Samsung is already shipping 7LPP and will ship 6LPP in H2. Hopefully they fix any issues if at all.
They have two more intermediate nodes in between before going to 3GAE, most likely 5LPE will ship next year but for 4LPE it will probably be back to back with 3GAA since 3GAA is a parallel development with 7LPP enhancements.




Samsung's 3GAA will go for HVM in 2022 most likely, similar timeframe to TSMC's N3.
There are major differences in how the transistor will be fabricated due to the GAA but density for sure Samsung will be behind N3.
But there might be advantages for Samsung with regards to power and performance, so it may be better suited for some applications.
But for now we don't know how much of this is true and we can only rely on the marketing material.

This year there should be a lot more available wafers due to lack of demand from Smartphone vendors and increased capacity from TSMC and Samsung.
Lots of SoCs which dont need to be top end will be fabbed with N7 or 7LPP/6LPP instead of N5, so there will be lots of wafers around.

Most of the current 7nm designs are far from the advertized density from TSMC and Samsung. There is still potential for density increase compared to currently shipping products.
N5 is going to be the leading foundry node for the next couple of years.

For a lot of fabless companies out there, the processes and capacity available are quite good.

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FEEL FREE TO CREATE A NEW THREAD FOR 2025+ OUTLOOK, I WILL LINK IT HERE
 
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Josh128

Senior member
Oct 14, 2022
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Clearwater Forest contains the same CPU cores that are in Panther Lake i.e. Darkmont it would be same RTL for the cores and L2.

For the yields they are better than 22nm for 18A! . I can't belive it is a failure if they are saying in front of the ecosystem cause people present there must have done the test chip and must have the data.
If I remember correctly, yields were not so great for 22nm (compared to Intels standards at the time). That said, it seems to be positive news still. But, its high time they put out an impressive product using it, to demonstrate its superiority rather than just talk about it on slides and presentations.

The new 18A-P that gives 8% better perf/w at same area as 18A sounds good and shows they are constantly trying to improve it. One can only hope they can put out a good strong lithography process and some good architecture to take advantage of it soon. We need competition.
 
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511

Platinum Member
Jul 12, 2024
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If I remember correctly, yields were not so great for 22nm (compared to Intels standards at the time). That said, it seems to be positive news still. But, its high time they put out an impressive product using it, to demonstrate its superiority rather than just talk about it on slides and presentations.

The new 18A-P that gives 8% better perf/w at same area as 18A sounds good and shows they are constantly trying to improve it. One can only hope they can put out a good strong lithography process and some good architecture to take advantage of it soon. We need competition.
IF anything 22nm was the best yielding process in last 10-15 year and i couldn't find a source with issue on 22nm you may be talking about 14nm.
 

maddie

Diamond Member
Jul 18, 2010
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IF anything 22nm was the best yielding process in last 10-15 year and i couldn't find a source with issue on 22nm you may be talking about 14nm.
View attachment 124822
It's one thing to accept most claims by Intel, but this, "If I remember correctly, yields were not so great for 22nm (compared to Intels standards at the time)", was what you were disputing. How does that graphic change anything?
 

511

Platinum Member
Jul 12, 2024
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It's one thing to accept most claims by Intel, but this, "If I remember correctly, yields were not so great for 22nm (compared to Intels standards at the time)", was what you were disputing. How does that graphic change anything?
well it doesn't change anything but it is the only thing i can find regarding yields for 22nm and it's not just Intel even TSMC is in the same boat.

on a sidenote Node Shrinks used to be crazy
 

maddie

Diamond Member
Jul 18, 2010
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well it doesn't change anything but it is the only thing i can find regarding yields for 22nm and it's not just Intel even TSMC is in the same boat.
At risk of being a PITA, that Intel slide has no values for yield, so all we can say is that 14nm took much longer to achieve 22nm yields. No clue as to the previous nodes.

on a sidenote Node Shrinks used to be crazy
Yep, the days of easy performance improvements.
 

Hitman928

Diamond Member
Apr 15, 2012
6,637
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it may be they have found some automation for these jobs

I think it’s far more likely that the blank check Pat gave to the fabs to build IFS 2.0 has been rescinded after failing to attract any significant volume customers so they are scaling back operations to try and stabilize the company. Hopefully they can get to a point where they can expand operations again once they have a desirable offering and real customers.
 

511

Platinum Member
Jul 12, 2024
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I think it’s far more likely that the blank check Pat gave to the fabs to build IFS 2.0 has been rescinded after failing to attract any significant volume customers so they are scaling back operations to try and stabilize the company. Hopefully they can get to a point where they can expand operations again once they have a desirable offering and real customers.
It can be both but we will get to know in JULY it's hilarious how kranzich F*** up and the company is not stabilized after 7 years of him leaving.
 

Hitman928

Diamond Member
Apr 15, 2012
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It can be both but we will get to know in JULY it's hilarious how kranzich F*** up and the company is not stabilized after 7 years of him leaving.

If Intel found a way to almost instantly automate 15% - 20% of its foundry work above its current automation level, they wouldn’t be quiet about it, it would be an industry breaking news announcement.
 
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Josh128

Senior member
Oct 14, 2022
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LBT said they are focusing more on engineering folks, this likely means a lot of the guys involved in actual production are getting the boot, which makes sense if theres not a whole lot of production taking place.
 

jpiniero

Lifer
Oct 1, 2010
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I think it’s far more likely that the blank check Pat gave to the fabs to build IFS 2.0 has been rescinded after failing to attract any significant volume customers so they are scaling back operations to try and stabilize the company. Hopefully they can get to a point where they can expand operations again once they have a desirable offering and real customers.

This sounds more like them laying off Node R&D and/or existing node Factory workers.
 

maddie

Diamond Member
Jul 18, 2010
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Wow, how the hubris has collapsed. Just recently, High-NA was the tech to propel Intel ahead of competitors, now fewer staff and downplaying High-NA as a savior tech


It's Wccftech, but it was said.

ASML’s High NA EUV Machines Won’t Be As Important In Future Chip Manufacturing Says Intel Director
 
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Hitman928

Diamond Member
Apr 15, 2012
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Laying off factory workers implies that they are cutting production... production which funds the future nodes.

Pat had them expand personnel and capex in anticipation of major fab customer wins which never materialized, so now LBT has to shrink things back down so Intel isn’t throwing money into a black hole every month. No matter what he does, Intel is in a tough spot but unless Intel was able to find customers very quickly this year, major cuts were inevitable. They just don’t have the financial security anymore to not do it.
 

vanplayer

Member
May 9, 2024
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I think it’s far more likely that the blank check Pat gave to the fabs to build IFS 2.0 has been rescinded after failing to attract any significant volume customers so they are scaling back operations to try and stabilize the company. Hopefully they can get to a point where they can expand operations again once they have a desirable offering and real customers.
Laying off factory workers implies that they are cutting production... production which funds the future nodes.

Bingo! Congrats. Intel severely cut the R&D budget of future node like 14A and the production is significantly postponed.
 
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