Trump dissolved a working JCPOA. How much blame should Trump get for Israel and Iran being at war?

Pontius Dilate · Jun 21, 2025

Muse said:
So, Iran's working to gather enough fissionable U to make an atomic bomb gets 0%?

Well, let's see. On the one hand we have Netanyahu, well-known liar, criminal and opportunist. Netanyahu has shouted for decades that Iran was 1-3 years, months and/or weeks away from building a nuclear weapon. If his claims were correct in the past then Iran certainly has nuclear weapons right now and has for years. And they haven't even used them despite Netanyahu claiming they would as soon as they could. Strange that Netanyahu didn't strike before now given what he knew, putting the nation of Israel in immediate danger of annihilation for years and years.

On the other hand we have Trump, well-known liar, criminal and opportunist, as well as easily-manipulated abject moron. He withdrew the US from the multilateral working agreement we had with Iran on their nuclear program, partially because black president bad, but certainly because Netanyahu told him to. Trump is the best friend Netanyahu has, because even if he doesn't help in the war directly, he will help indirectly and continue to look the other way on Gaza and the West Bank.

On the other other hand we have Iran, the government of which are well-known liars, criminals and opportunists, as well as sponsors of terrorism. Iran entered into the agreement on their nuclear program and had incentives to abide by the terms. They got rug-pulled by Trump and certainly began backsliding to some extent. How much none of us here know. Elements of the Israeli and US governments probably know, but given the histories of Trump and Netanyahu no trust can be given to what either of them say.

Israel attacks Iran now because:

Israel recently kicked the shit out of Hezbollah and effectively sidelined them for the moment, so Iran's main proxies against Israel are defanged.
Syrian government collapsed, so threats Israel used to be concerned about from that direction are dealing with their own stuff now.
Israel has learned very clearly that they can physically destroy the land of Gaza and kill the inhabitants and continue to take pieces of the West Bank and kill the inhabitants and the international community ain't gonna do nothing. Why would they care about Iran?
The US will never not support Israel with advanced weaponry no matter what they do.
Trump can be manipulated into doing practically anything, but even if he backs out at the last second he will never get in the way..

That's why Iran gets 0%. They could be working on an actual device right now. They could just be slowly enriching uranium and have nothing else going on. They could have everything mothballed. Israel gonna do what Israel gonna do.

Heartbreaker · Jun 21, 2025

Pontius Dilate said:
That's why Iran gets 0%. They could be working on an actual device right now. They could just be slowly enriching uranium and have nothing else going on. They could have everything mothballed. Israel gonna do what Israel gonna do.

Even Iran admits they have a nuclear program, they just claim it's for civilian uses, which is BS.

The reason they keep at this controversial program is to develop Nuclear weapons.

We can argue about how far along they are, but the program exists, and it's for developing Nuclear weapons.

Pontius Dilate · Jun 21, 2025

Heartbreaker said:
Even Iran admits they have a nuclear program, they just claim it's for civilian uses, which is BS.

The reason they keep at this controversial program is to develop Nuclear weapons.

We can argue about how far along they are, but the program exists, and it's for developing Nuclear weapons.

I'm willing to accept that. Doesn't really change my apportionment of responsibility for Israel unilaterally attacking Iran.

Heartbreaker · Jun 21, 2025

Pontius Dilate said:
I'm willing to accept that. Doesn't really change my apportionment of responsibility for Israel unilaterally attacking Iran.

Israel is going to try to end any of Iran's nuclear weapon ambitions whenever possible. They wouldn't be attacking to stop, what doesn't exist.

So if you bring Iran into this, they should have more than 0%...

Greenman · Jun 21, 2025

BonzaiDuck said:
I think it was fair to blame him 100%, since a working agreement with Iran was in place when Obama left office.

Once again, just thinking about these things, I want to go out in public despite today's 100F heat, find a Trump supporter and deliver a round-house smack in his/her face with 5 year's reconstructive surgery. Trump inspires political violence in thought as well as in deed.

That's a fairly sick statement. The only saving grace here is that you're clearly demented.

Jaskalas · Jun 21, 2025

Greenman said:
That's a fairly sick statement. The only saving grace here is that you're clearly demented.

If Americans have to choose between Demented violence and Nazi violence, no one is going to like our answer.

Greenman · Jun 21, 2025

Jaskalas said:
If Americans have to choose between Demented violence and Nazi violence, no one is going to like our answer.

Americans already chose.

[DHT]Osiris · Jun 21, 2025

Heartbreaker said:
Even Iran admits they have a nuclear program, they just claim it's for civilian uses, which is BS.

The reason they keep at this controversial program is to develop Nuclear weapons.

We can argue about how far along they are, but the program exists, and it's for developing Nuclear weapons.

This is a pretty dumb assessment. Once you can make low-grade enriched fuel for reactors, you can just keep enriching it for weapons-grade use. The hard part is obtaining the material (which they have) and the enrichment facilities (which they have). You don't have to 'keep at this', you just do it.

Pontius Dilate · Jun 21, 2025

Heartbreaker said:
Israel is going to try to end any of Iran's nuclear weapon ambitions whenever possible. They wouldn't be attacking to stop, what doesn't exist.

So if you bring Iran into this, they should have more than 0%...

They're clearly not going to try to end them whenever possible because they haven't even when Netanyahu said they were going to have the bomb imminently within a defined timeframe, repeatedly. They have decided now is a good time based on the factors I explained previously. And bringing Iran into this the question becomes if Israel is within it's rights to unilaterally attack Iran, how is Iran not within it's rights to pursue nuclear weapons?

IronWing · Jun 21, 2025

Greenman said:
Americans already chose.

You chose the Nazi. Americans did not.

K1052 · Jun 21, 2025

Greenman said:
Americans already chose.

Lost the PV in two out of three elections and never once managed anything more than a plurality.

Jaskalas · Jun 21, 2025

Greenman said:
Americans already chose.

Naw, missed by an ear.

Heartbreaker · Jun 21, 2025

Pontius Dilate said:
They're clearly not going to try to end them whenever possible because they haven't even when Netanyahu said they were going to have the bomb imminently within a defined timeframe, repeatedly. They have decided now is a good time based on the factors I explained previously. And bringing Iran into this the question becomes if Israel is within it's rights to unilaterally attack Iran, how is Iran not within it's rights to pursue nuclear weapons?

The "whenever possible" part is current conditions where Syria has fallen and Israel has spent the time degrading Hezbollah and weapons capability inside Syria, which we essentially agree on.

Essentially Israel likely has a unique Window where they don't have to worry about Iran's Proxies in their back yard retaliating.

Greenman · Jun 21, 2025

K1052 said:
Lost the PV in two out of three elections and never once managed anything more than a plurality.

Won the popular vote, elected president. You can dance around that all you want and play tons of fun word games, it won't change a thing. Trump won because the dems pretended Biden was of sound mind until the nation was slapped in the face with his dementia. Then they decided to be king makers and stuff Harris into the election.
Primary? We don't need no stinking primary. You'll vote for the only choice the democratic party allows you to vote for. Yeah, that worked out well. The only good thing to come out of that fiasco is Harris will be the next governor of California.

K1052 · Jun 21, 2025

Greenman said:
Won the popular vote, elected president. You can dance around that all you want and play tons of fun word games, it won't change a thing. Trump won because the dems pretended Biden was of sound mind until the nation was slapped in the face with his dementia. Then they decided to be king makers and stuff Harris into the election.
Primary? We don't need no stinking primary. You'll vote for the only choice the democratic party allows you to vote for. Yeah, that worked out well. The only good thing to come out of that fiasco is Harris will be the next governor of California.

Didn’t win PV in 2016 or 2020 and only won with a plurality. Not once has he secured the votes of a majority. Not one time.

Heartbreaker · Jun 21, 2025

OK. I changed my vote to 100% Trump, as USA just attacked 3 Iranian sites:

Trump: US launches strike on three nuclear sites in Iran

The move comes after Iran and Israel have been engaged in aerial strikes and Trump had been pondering US involvement for the past week.

www.usatoday.com

The United States launched the attacks on three nuclear sites in Iran on June 21, President Donald Trump announced on Truth Social, as the Israel-Iran war entered the second week.

"We have completed our very successful attack on the three Nuclear sites in Iran, including Fordow, Natanz, and Esfahan," wrote Trump on TruthSocial .on June 21 "All planes are now outside of Iran air space. A full payload of BOMBS was dropped on the primary site, Fordow."

Won't help Ukraine, but drops bombs on a powder keg in the middle east, FFS.

I laughed (sad laugh) at his final comment:

"NOW IS THE TIME FOR PEACE!"

IronWing · Jun 21, 2025

Greenman said:
Won the popular vote, elected president. You can dance around that all you want and play tons of fun word games, it won't change a thing. Trump won because the dems pretended Biden was of sound mind until the nation was slapped in the face with his dementia. Then they decided to be king makers and stuff Harris into the election.
Primary? We don't need no stinking primary. You'll vote for the only choice the democratic party allows you to vote for. Yeah, that worked out well. The only good thing to come out of that fiasco is Harris will be the next governor of California.

Trump won because you’re a Nazi.

Sonikku · Jun 21, 2025

Bibi grinning ear to ear tonight. God help us all.

Pontius Dilate · Jun 21, 2025

Heartbreaker said:
The "whenever possible" part is current conditions where Syria has fallen and Israel has spent the time degrading Hezbollah and weapons capability inside Syria, which we essentially agree on.

Essentially Israel likely has a unique Window where they don't have to worry about Iran's Proxies in their back yard retaliating.

And having that POS Trump in the White House greenlighting everything Israel wants to do. My point was that if Netanyahu believed what he was saying in the past then the time to strike was in the past, ergo he's a liar, so why should I believe him now given that the stars have aligned for him to strike with impunity?

Pontius Dilate · Sunday at 10:29 AM

Forget what I said about unilateral. Secretary Whiskyleaks admitted we were in Israel’s plans from the beginning, and Trump was just doing a little pantomime about not deciding.

HomerJS · Sunday at 1:37 PM

Greenman said:
Won the popular vote, elected president. You can dance around that all you want and play tons of fun word games, it won't change a thing. Trump won because the dems pretended Biden was of sound mind until the nation was slapped in the face with his dementia. Then they decided to be king makers and stuff Harris into the election.
Primary? We don't need no stinking primary. You'll vote for the only choice the democratic party allows you to vote for. Yeah, that worked out well. The only good thing to come out of that fiasco is Harris will be the next governor of California.

Trump won cause a shit ton of people were willing to believe black people are stealing pets and eating them

Trump dissolved a working JCPOA. How much blame should Trump get for Israel and Iran being at war?

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