12yo Girl sued by RIAA

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DrPizza

Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
Mar 5, 2001
49,601
167
111
www.slatebrookfarm.com
Question: if I download "music" (really, I'm just downloading 0's and 1's) and I never have any software attempt to make sense of those 0's and 1's, did I really break the law? It never made back to the form of music.

Also, while the RIAA does have the right to look out for their best interests, personally, I don't think that suing 12 year olds and grandparents is in their best interests. Strong-arm tactics such as these are not good for public/customer relations.

In fact, if I was on a mission to get people to *HATE* the RIAA, these are the types of stories that I would fabricate!

Also:
up to five years in prison, pay a $250,000 fine for trading a *single* copyrighted song if the Author, Consumer and Computer Owner Protection and Security Act (ACCOPS, HR 2752) is passed by Congress.
How much money does the RIAA have to pay to congressmen to get something like that considered?? I could commit a murder, get it reduced to manslaughter, and be out of prison sooner than a college student who trades one Britney Spears song, and the college student would be in debt for years to pay the fine! (Uh, who gets the proceeds of the fine????)
 

CrazyDe1

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2001
3,089
0
0
Originally posted by: Dead Parrot Sketch
crazyd1-

What r u ? A criminal mastermind ?

I've always had a deviant mind and everyone's said I'd be a better lawyer than anything. Like when I'm sitting at Mcey d's most people sit and eat...if I see an armored car I'd sit and think about how I'd rob it and get away with it. I always thought if there was a major snowstorm someone should get a snowmobile and rob a bank...not htat I'd ever do it...I just think about it...

I also see tons of ways of getting out of situations...like I got out of a speeding ticket cause the cop wrote heavy traffic on the back of the ticket and said I was going 75 in a 40. I went up and said if the speed limit was 40 and heavy traffic, how could I have been going 75?
 

Twista

Diamond Member
Jun 19, 2003
9,646
1
0
Originally posted by: baclips6
riaa website down?

http://www.riaa.com/ works
http://www.riaa.com/ doesnt work with peer guard. on.


Connection Rejected: 146.82.174.10 - RIAA (09-09-2003 @ 15:54:16)
Connection Rejected: 146.82.174.10 - RIAA.com (09-09-2003 @ 15:54:16)
Connection Rejected: 68.163.90.10 - RIAA.com (09-09-2003 @ 15:54:16)
Connection Rejected: 146.82.174.10 - RIAA (09-09-2003 @ 15:54:16)
Connection Rejected: 146.82.174.10 - RIAA.com (09-09-2003 @ 15:54:16)
Connection Rejected: 68.163.90.10 - RIAA.com (09-09-2003 @ 15:54:16)
Connection Rejected: 146.82.174.10 - RIAA (09-09-2003 @ 15:54:16)
Connection Rejected: 146.82.174.10 - RIAA.com (09-09-2003 @ 15:54:16)
Connection Rejected: 68.163.90.10 - RIAA.com (09-09-2003 @ 15:54:16)
 

SendTrash

Platinum Member
Apr 18, 2000
2,581
0
76
Originally posted by: xospec1alk
RIAA


29.95 service charge for kazaa?? did they get ripped off or somethjing?

I think the service charge they are talking about it their ISP monthy fee...
 

CrazyDe1

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2001
3,089
0
0
Originally posted by: jumpr
Originally posted by: CrazyDe1
Originally posted by: jumpr
Originally posted by: CrazyDe1
Originally posted by: Dead Parrot Sketch
Well, you can go to court and lie under oath and maybe get away with it..

or you could end up in a lot more serious trouble.

Well...you wouldn't necessarily have to lie. You're innocent until proven guilty. So, as a plausible scenario you say something like since you don't know who in the house downloaded the files, you can check all the computers, and they wont' have any evidence, then you can't prove I downloaded the music. Plausible scenarios are someone drove by our houes since I have a wireless router and downloaded music. While I was at it I'd replace my network card so the mac address wouldn't match.
If you downloaded the music and then said you didn't...or you said, "PROVE that I downloaded them, because I'm saying I didn't," then you're lying. Stop skirting the issue.

Pleading not guilty when you're guilty as charged is lying under oath.

Right, this is plenty reasonable doubt. Who are people going to believe the huge RIAA that oppresses them and all they have is an IP address or you with your computer, your new network card, your wireless router with a plausible other explanation. The RIAA can't prove beyond a reasonable doubt that you did download music. You show how someone could have downloaded music with your IP and you're off.

Well you don't lie under oath by pleading not guilty. You're lying, but who cares? OJ simpson got away with murder didn't he? I'm sure a 12 year old girl could get away with downloading music if she actually thought about it instead of acting scared and paying a fine. They can't prove you lied unless you're guilty and at which point you have nothing to lose anyways. You plead not guilty, you refuse to take the stand, act as your own lawyer, and as a lawyer you say well these are possible other scenarios why the RIAA could have thought she downloaded the music. Since you haven't see the files on her computer, all you have is an IP address to go by. You've effectively thrown out reasonable doubt hence not guilty in this country. You don't say that you DIDN'T download them, you just say you can't prove who did...a whole different story.
The keyword is REASONABLE doubt. If the jury has a strong enough conviction to believe that YOU downloaded and shared that music, then you're guilty.

I for one wouldn't convict anyone of guilt on just an IP address. What is the RIAA's evidence? This IP address with this Kazaa name downloaded this amount of songs and this is traced back to this ISP and this name. Well, you go in and go look, my hard drive has none of these songs. Look, my MAC address on my network card doesn't match this IP address. Look, I don't even have kazaa installed. Then they're going to ask how could someone have downloaded these songs. Then you say well...I'm not saying they did, but I have a wireless router and someone could have been stealing my bandwidth. This is VERY reasonable doubt.

 

Tab

Lifer
Sep 15, 2002
12,145
0
76
Its great to see everyone defend the theifs...

"The CD's cost too much" - So thats gives you a right to steal them?
"The music sucks" - If it sucks why is it downloaded?
"The RIAA are assholes for suing a 12 year old" - She stole from them, if she didnt know the rules too bad. If some dumb guy from a forgien contrey kills someone and says "I didnt know that was illegal." You think they are going to let them walk?
 

CrazyDe1

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2001
3,089
0
0
Originally posted by: Tabb
Its great to see everyone defend the theifs...

"The CD's cost too much" - So thats gives you a right to steal them?
"The music sucks" - If it sucks why is it downloaded?
"The RIAA are assholes for suing a 12 year old" - She stole from them, if she didnt know the rules too bad. If some dumb guy from a forgien contrey kills someone and says "I didnt know that was illegal." You think they are going to let them walk?

It might be stealing but I'll never feel any guilt about doing so....and it will never be truly stealing in my book...it's not even equivalent to going to a store and putting the CD in your jacket and leaving...
 

CrazyDe1

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2001
3,089
0
0
Originally posted by: Magdalene
some 12 year old shoplift too. big deal.

For some reason I think shoplifting is wrong and have never done it. I have no qualms about not paying for music though...I still buy CDs of artists I bought CDs from before or if I like a few songs but MP3's have allowed me to hear music and learn about bands and go to shows i never would hae heard of if not for them...and I think if I'm listening to this music and buying future CDs it's better than never hearing about them. I'm against pirated software I do it though....
 

NWRMidnight

Diamond Member
Jun 18, 2001
3,423
2,964
136
Are languages copyrighted such as english, spanish, french, etc.? Music is a way of communication, and it has already been protected under the constitution under free speech. If it can be protected under the constitution as free speech, how can it be copyrighted? IF this is the case then every sentence, word, etc. is copyrighted. The music, the notes played, movies, etc, are copyrighted material, but the words, sentences, language is not, so how can the RIAA, or MPAA stop you, or me, from listening to what no one owns? Do you know who owns the copyright to music, to language, etc.? I do, the copyright holder is god himself and I believe he gave it to all people to listen to, and to sing.

Besides the evidence they have is all digital evidence and a good lawyer should get it thrown out of court. The reason I say this is where I live, Digital pictures are not usuable in court because they can be altered, just as ALL the so called evidence the RIAA has can be altered. Who's to say their evidence is not manipulated. They already manipulate the sales figures and the losses and why they are down. So what's to stop them from altering such evidence.

Daniel
 

Originally posted by: NWRMidnight
Are languages copyrighted such as english, spanish, french, etc.? Music is a way of communication, and it has already been protected under the constitution under free speech. If it can be protected under the constitution as free speech, how can it be copyrighted? IF this is the case then every sentence, word, etc. is copyrighted. The music, the notes played, movies, etc, are copyrighted material, but the words, sentences, language is not, so how can the RIAA, or MPAA stop you, or me, from listening to what no one owns? Do you know who owns the copyright to music, to language, etc.? I do, the copyright holder is god himself and I believe he gave it to all people to listen to, and to sing.

Besides the evidence they have is all digital evidence and a good lawyer should get it thrown out of court. The reason I say this is where I live, Digital pictures are not usuable in court because they can be altered, just as ALL the so called evidence the RIAA has can be altered. Who's to say their evidence is not manipulated. They already manipulate the sales figures and the losses and why they are down. So what's to stop them from altering such evidence.

Daniel
I'm not quoting this post becuase I have something relevant or interesting to add. I'm quoting it because it's worth reading and it brings up several well-thought-out viewpoints.
 

RaiseUp

Banned
Dec 7, 2002
1,273
0
0
Thought they were going after UPLOADERS? That article isnt clear if she was sharing the files.
 

digitalsm

Diamond Member
Jul 11, 2003
5,253
0
0
Originally posted by: NWRMidnight
Are languages copyrighted such as english, spanish, french, etc.? Music is a way of communication, and it has already been protected under the constitution under free speech. If it can be protected under the constitution as free speech, how can it be copyrighted? IF this is the case then every sentence, word, etc. is copyrighted. The music, the notes played, movies, etc, are copyrighted material, but the words, sentences, language is not, so how can the RIAA, or MPAA stop you, or me, from listening to what no one owns? Do you know who owns the copyright to music, to language, etc.? I do, the copyright holder is god himself and I believe he gave it to all people to listen to, and to sing.

Besides the evidence they have is all digital evidence and a good lawyer should get it thrown out of court. The reason I say this is where I live, Digital pictures are not usuable in court because they can be altered, just as ALL the so called evidence the RIAA has can be altered. Who's to say their evidence is not manipulated. They already manipulate the sales figures and the losses and why they are down. So what's to stop them from altering such evidence.

Daniel

You say the music and notes played are copyrighted, so that would make it illegal to listen to music, as music is composed of music and lyrics. I mean you can read a script or the lyrics to a movie and song and not get in trouble. You make absoultely no sense and you are basically saying books cant be copywrited either. You obviously have no idea how copywrites work. Song, books, etc are copyrighted as a whole piece of work, not just a bunch of words together.
 

digitalsm

Diamond Member
Jul 11, 2003
5,253
0
0
Originally posted by: jumpr
Originally posted by: NWRMidnight
Are languages copyrighted such as english, spanish, french, etc.? Music is a way of communication, and it has already been protected under the constitution under free speech. If it can be protected under the constitution as free speech, how can it be copyrighted? IF this is the case then every sentence, word, etc. is copyrighted. The music, the notes played, movies, etc, are copyrighted material, but the words, sentences, language is not, so how can the RIAA, or MPAA stop you, or me, from listening to what no one owns? Do you know who owns the copyright to music, to language, etc.? I do, the copyright holder is god himself and I believe he gave it to all people to listen to, and to sing.

Besides the evidence they have is all digital evidence and a good lawyer should get it thrown out of court. The reason I say this is where I live, Digital pictures are not usuable in court because they can be altered, just as ALL the so called evidence the RIAA has can be altered. Who's to say their evidence is not manipulated. They already manipulate the sales figures and the losses and why they are down. So what's to stop them from altering such evidence.

Daniel
I'm not quoting this post becuase I have something relevant or interesting to add. I'm quoting it because it's worth reading and it brings up several well-thought-out viewpoints.


How so?

The music, the notes played, movies, etc, are copyrighted material, but the words, sentences, language is not, so how can the RIAA, or MPAA stop you, or me, from listening to what no one owns?

Music is music + lyrics, if music and musical notes can be copyrighted thus listening to a song that you pirated is illegal because its not just lyrics, its music and lyrics.
 

Originally posted by: digitalsm
Originally posted by: jumpr
Originally posted by: NWRMidnight
Are languages copyrighted such as english, spanish, french, etc.? Music is a way of communication, and it has already been protected under the constitution under free speech. If it can be protected under the constitution as free speech, how can it be copyrighted? IF this is the case then every sentence, word, etc. is copyrighted. The music, the notes played, movies, etc, are copyrighted material, but the words, sentences, language is not, so how can the RIAA, or MPAA stop you, or me, from listening to what no one owns? Do you know who owns the copyright to music, to language, etc.? I do, the copyright holder is god himself and I believe he gave it to all people to listen to, and to sing.

Besides the evidence they have is all digital evidence and a good lawyer should get it thrown out of court. The reason I say this is where I live, Digital pictures are not usuable in court because they can be altered, just as ALL the so called evidence the RIAA has can be altered. Who's to say their evidence is not manipulated. They already manipulate the sales figures and the losses and why they are down. So what's to stop them from altering such evidence.

Daniel
I'm not quoting this post becuase I have something relevant or interesting to add. I'm quoting it because it's worth reading and it brings up several well-thought-out viewpoints.


How so?

The music, the notes played, movies, etc, are copyrighted material, but the words, sentences, language is not, so how can the RIAA, or MPAA stop you, or me, from listening to what no one owns?

Music is music + lyrics, if music and musical notes can be copyrighted thus listening to a song that you pirated is illegal because its not just lyrics, its music and lyrics.
I was focusing on the second paragraph, mostly.
 

ReiAyanami

Diamond Member
Sep 24, 2002
4,466
0
0
Here's the question: if a multi-person household shares an internet connection, how can the RIAA prove which person actually commited the terrorist activity of file-sharing? suppose there are 4 ppl in a house, then each has 1/4th of a chance of being guilty, and 3/4ths of being innocent, which is well beyond a reasonable doubt.
 

digitalsm

Diamond Member
Jul 11, 2003
5,253
0
0
Originally posted by: ReiAyanami
Here's the question: if a multi-person household shares an internet connection, how can the RIAA prove which person actually commited the terrorist activity of file-sharing? suppose there are 4 ppl in a house, then each has 1/4th of a chance of being guilty, and 3/4ths of being innocent, which is well beyond a reasonable doubt.

The owner of the computer is liable in that case. This isnt criminal court, civil court doesnt require to be quilty beyond a reasonable doubt.
 

CrazyDe1

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2001
3,089
0
0
Originally posted by: ReiAyanami
Here's the question: if a multi-person household shares an internet connection, how can the RIAA prove which person actually commited the terrorist activity of file-sharing? suppose there are 4 ppl in a house, then each has 1/4th of a chance of being guilty, and 3/4ths of being innocent, which is well beyond a reasonable doubt.

They can't...in this case they'd prosecute the person with the ISP account...which again, could completely be innocent. This is like photo radar...I've gotten 3 or 4 photo radar ticekts but since my car is not registered under my name, they alwys get thrown out.
 

CrazyDe1

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2001
3,089
0
0
Originally posted by: digitalsm
Originally posted by: ReiAyanami
Here's the question: if a multi-person household shares an internet connection, how can the RIAA prove which person actually commited the terrorist activity of file-sharing? suppose there are 4 ppl in a house, then each has 1/4th of a chance of being guilty, and 3/4ths of being innocent, which is well beyond a reasonable doubt.

The owner of the computer is liable in that case. This isnt criminal court, civil court doesnt require to be quilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

Who in their right mind is going to convict someone they aren't sure is guilty? No judge I know would...you're not required to give up the person in your household sharing the music...
 

digitalsm

Diamond Member
Jul 11, 2003
5,253
0
0
Originally posted by: CrazyDe1
Originally posted by: ReiAyanami
Here's the question: if a multi-person household shares an internet connection, how can the RIAA prove which person actually commited the terrorist activity of file-sharing? suppose there are 4 ppl in a house, then each has 1/4th of a chance of being guilty, and 3/4ths of being innocent, which is well beyond a reasonable doubt.

They can't...in this case they'd prosecute the person with the ISP account...which again, could completely be innocent. This is like photo radar...I've gotten 3 or 4 photo radar ticekts but since my car is not registered under my name, they alwys get thrown out.

This is slightly different. This is a civil case, its not ticket court, or criminal court. All they have to prove is the person is liable, which would be fairly simple to do. Now if we are talking about the proposed law in congress, that doesnt have the support to pass. The Senate is investigating the RIAA at the current time.
 

HJB417

Senior member
Dec 31, 2000
763
0
0
Originally posted by: digitalsm
Originally posted by: ReiAyanami
Here's the question: if a multi-person household shares an internet connection, how can the RIAA prove which person actually commited the terrorist activity of file-sharing? suppose there are 4 ppl in a house, then each has 1/4th of a chance of being guilty, and 3/4ths of being innocent, which is well beyond a reasonable doubt.

The owner of the computer is liable in that case. This isnt criminal court, civil court doesnt require to be quilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

what if you maintain a (wireless )router? How will the RIAA know which IP it came from if its NATed
 

digitalsm

Diamond Member
Jul 11, 2003
5,253
0
0
Originally posted by: CrazyDe1
Originally posted by: digitalsm
Originally posted by: ReiAyanami
Here's the question: if a multi-person household shares an internet connection, how can the RIAA prove which person actually commited the terrorist activity of file-sharing? suppose there are 4 ppl in a house, then each has 1/4th of a chance of being guilty, and 3/4ths of being innocent, which is well beyond a reasonable doubt.

The owner of the computer is liable in that case. This isnt criminal court, civil court doesnt require to be quilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

Who in their right mind is going to convict someone they aren't sure is guilty? No judge I know would...you're not required to give up the person in your household sharing the music...

In a civil case, all they have to prove is liability, you dont have to be guilty just liable, and a person would be liable if they allowed someone to share/download music from their computer. In criminal cases you are right, the charges would never stick, but these are all civil cases, not criminal.
 

CrazyDe1

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2001
3,089
0
0
Originally posted by: digitalsm
Originally posted by: CrazyDe1
Originally posted by: ReiAyanami
Here's the question: if a multi-person household shares an internet connection, how can the RIAA prove which person actually commited the terrorist activity of file-sharing? suppose there are 4 ppl in a house, then each has 1/4th of a chance of being guilty, and 3/4ths of being innocent, which is well beyond a reasonable doubt.

They can't...in this case they'd prosecute the person with the ISP account...which again, could completely be innocent. This is like photo radar...I've gotten 3 or 4 photo radar ticekts but since my car is not registered under my name, they alwys get thrown out.

This is slightly different. This is a civil case, its not ticket court, or criminal court. All they have to prove is the person is liable, which would be fairly simple to do. Now if we are talking about the proposed law in congress, that doesnt have the support to pass. The Senate is investigating the RIAA at the current time.

How are you liable if they can't prove there's any files on your computer? The only thing they can prove is that someone using your ISP account downloaded the material. Aren't liability cases, like the cigarette cases and mcey d's coffee cases always jury based? I still don't know any reasonable person who would find someone liable of doing something based on evidence like that....
 
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