3/5 of a person?

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Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent, a new nation, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.

Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure. We are met on a great battle-field of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field, as a final resting place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this.
But, in a larger sense, we can not dedicate -- we can not consecrate -- we can not hallow -- this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us -- that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion -- that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain -- that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom -- and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.


I hope these great words puts to rest your question of "What noble cause?".

Ah, Texas history, to go along with the Texas logic.

LK and Eskimospy got it right.

The two-fifths reduction in slaves being counted for representation had nothing to do with that being a 'two-fifths start to recognizing them as people'.

This was simply two groups of states - slave and non-slave - fighting over how much representation in the federal government slave states would get.

More representation gave slave states more power, less representation gave non-slave states a larger share.

The treatment of slaves as people wasn't affected - that was still 'zero' either way.

The north's interest wasn't in protecting the 'rights' of slaves, in 'starting their freedom that would end in the civil war'; it was just negotiating for more power.

Both sides had some interest in forming the United States; the South was apparently willing to not form it, if not given more power, based on its slave population.

The three-fifths is nothing but naked negotiation compromise making no more sense than Solomon actually chopping a baby in half for each of two claims to it.

The actual part of the constitution addressing slavery is much less well-known - it's a provision that the importation of new slaves could not be banned for 20 years.

As that 20 year mark approached, President Thomas Jefferson and Congress passed a law banning slave importation to take effect on the first day the constitution allowed.

That was 1808.

The civil war was started primarily over the ongoing conflicts between the north and south on *economic* matters, with the south angry at its treatment by the majority non-slave states - being the unfortunate member in a democracy with under 50% - and therefore zero - representation.

There was a minority movement against slavery - just as there is a minority 'peace' or progressive movement today in the US - but the North's policies such as opposing more slave states had more to do with not creating more allies and power for the slave states than protecting slaves. They could have voted to end slavery from 1808 to the 1860's and did not. The north was extremely racist.

Wars benefit from a moral cause, and they are often invented when needed; the role of 'freeing the slaves' was greatly exaggerated to make the war more 'justified'.

Changing times around the world did mean slavery was on the way out, as it ended in country after country after country in the 19th century.

By the way, on its one factual claim, the Gettysburg address was incredibly wrong - that the world would forget what Lincoln said.

Perhaps the most ironic thing in Washington, D.C., are the words 'the world will soon forget' the speech etched into stone at the Lincoln memorial.

I've never been impressed by the speech much, for what it's worth. JFK for peace, FDR against the wealthy interests exploiting - those are great speeches.

Regardless, Lincoln's main motivation was preserving the union; the South's was ending the abuse of power by the majority for its own interests at their expense.

Slavery had a lot of things to it - identifying the group of Southern states, economic, as well as moral.

Lincoln's campaign speeches reassuring northern voters that he would NEVER permit 'social equality' for the clearly inferior blacks show the 'moral' situation.
 
Aug 14, 2001
11,061
0
0
The man from Mr. Glenn Beck's show is named David Barton, an expert in historical and constitutional issues and he holds a Bachelors degree from Oral Roberts University and an honorary Ph.D from Pensacola Christian College. He has millions of dedicated followers including Mike Huckabee. And you think you know more about our nation's history than him?

Man, that's some elite education right there. Oral Roberts University and a honorary PhD from Pensacola Christian College. I bet the latter one took a lot of hard work, you know, considering it was honorary and all.
 

wuliheron

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2011
3,536
0
0
Slaves had been common throughout history with sometimes 90% of the population being slaves, but it was mechanization that forced the issue and later forced the issue of workers rights in general. With the introduction of the cotton gin profits shot through the roof and the number of slaves more then quadrupled. The scale and inhuman abuse became unsustainable not only in the US, but in places like the Caribbean where the average lifespan of a slave working the sugarcane fields was five years. It was arguably the beginning of the modern human rights movement.

The 3/5ths compromise was merely one of many attempts to avoid a fight over the issue and, obviously, it failed. Wars and conflicts over the impact of mechanization and human rights continue to this day. It is a transition at least as profound as the one from hunter-gather societies to agricultural and we've only just begun.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
The 3/5ths compromise was merely one of many attempts to avoid a fight over the issue and, obviously, it failed.

I disagree that the 3/5ths compromise was an 'attempt to avoid a fight', as far as a fight over ending slavery.

IMO, it was merely a negotiation only over who got how much a share of the pie while forming the country, and not to do with the ending of slavery.

It was part of the parties agreeing to form the US.

But it wasn't a 'step to ending slavery', that I've seen, correct me if you have info.
 

JD50

Lifer
Sep 4, 2005
11,870
2,718
136
Who called the KKK meeting?

I know you guys would go to any lengths to try and discredit the dark man in the whitehouse, but going back 150 years in time and trying to revive and defending the ideals and excuses of your racist colonial heros is just WOW.

What in the world are you talking about?
 

Baasha

Golden Member
Jan 4, 2010
1,989
20
81
More obfuscation by apologetics instead of owning up to the atrocities their worthless ancestors committed (slave trade/slave ownership etc.).

I wonder if this "clause" was discussed before or after slaughtering millions of Native Americans in the name of "civilization"?

And these scum have the audacity to talk about other countries' human rights! Hah! The gall!
 

Macamus Prime

Diamond Member
Feb 24, 2011
3,108
0
0
As passionate as they feel about justifying the horrors of their past, they feel same way about God,.. or rather Gawd. When they do face Gawd and realize their Great Grand Peepaw is in the deep bowels of hell for harming another human being that Gawd has created, it will sink in pretty fucking quickly that all along, they have been masking the fact that they themselves are nothing more than pure evil shit. Or, that the masking they willingly/knowingly used to cover the fact that they are nothing more than pure evil shit pissed Gawd off even more.

Enjoy hell, you earned it.
 

GuitarDaddy

Lifer
Nov 9, 2004
11,465
1
0
What in the world are you talking about?


I'm talking about the OP's ridiculous premise that when slave owners where negotiating for 3/5th's of a person representation for their slaves, that they were some how "righting a wrong" or looking out for best interest of the slaves. Which is pretty much like claiming Mike Vick was looking out for the best interest of his dogs
 

a777pilot

Diamond Member
Apr 26, 2011
4,261
21
81
Question for Craig234: Are you for or against slavery? You seem to be all over the place in your musings.

Me? I'm totally against the institution. It's an abomination. Anything that helps put an end to it is a good thing. If only it were a dead issue today, but it isn't.

So help me out here....Are you for or against the practice of slavery?
 

a777pilot

Diamond Member
Apr 26, 2011
4,261
21
81
I'm talking about the OP's ridiculous premise that when slave owners where negotiating for 3/5th's of a person representation for their slaves, that they were some how "righting a wrong" or looking out for best interest of the slaves. Which is pretty much like claiming Mike Vick was looking out for the best interest of his dogs

I am the OP of this thread and that is so far from my statement it's falls into the "you must be on drugs" to post that zone.

This is what I said:

I am curious. How many of you know the history behind the counting of slaves as 3/5 of a person?

I am listening to the cable news channels and they and their guests have got it backward. These are suppose to be highly educated people. I find this sad.
 

her209

No Lifer
Oct 11, 2000
56,336
11
0
When, exactly, do you think the Compromise was initiated that you put it in relation to the sacrificing of lives?

The only reason why the South wanted them to be counted was to gain an advantage over the north so the north couldn't abolish slavery and the south would immediately lose their economic AND political advantage. Why should they be counted at all if they weren't free and they only were being proxy voted by their owners? In fact, they weren't even considered 3/5, they were considered nothing but a tool by racists to keep power, so the 3/5 is even more disgusting than not counting them as a whole.
The 3/5 compromise was for slaves being counted as property, not as voters. And back then, only property owners were allowed to vote. To claim that the South wanted to count them as a whole is disingenuous and revisionist history. The North didn't want slaves to be counted as property.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,413
54,092
136
The 3/5 compromise was for slaves being counted as property, not as voters. And back then, only property owners were allowed to vote. To claim that the South wanted to count them as a whole is disingenuous and revisionist history. The North didn't want slaves to be counted as property.

This is not correct. Only property owners were allowed to VOTE, but the residents of a state were counted for purposes of representation regardless of their ability to vote, and regardless of whether or not they owned any property.

The South absolutely wanted all slaves to be counted as a whole person for purposes of representation, which is what the 3/5ths compromise is all about. They just wanted to have their cake (more votes in Congress) and eat it too (be racist shiteaters growing rich off the products of enslavement).
 

Linflas

Lifer
Jan 30, 2001
15,395
78
91
Question for Craig234: Are you for or against slavery? You seem to be all over the place in your musings.

Me? I'm totally against the institution. It's an abomination. Anything that helps put an end to it is a good thing. If only it were a dead issue today, but it isn't.

So help me out here....Are you for or against the practice of slavery?

Actually I never thought I would post such a thing but Craig essentially has it right in his post as far as the 3/5s compromise and the issues at the start of the Civil War, I don't see how it could be construed as supporting slavery.
 

ichy

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2006
6,940
8
81
The man from Mr. Glenn Beck's show is named David Barton, an expert in historical and constitutional issues and he holds a Bachelors degree from Oral Roberts University and an honorary Ph.D from Pensacola Christian College. He has millions of dedicated followers including Mike Huckabee. And you think you know more about our nation's history than him?

LOL, a Bachelor's degree from a Oral Roberts University and an "honorary" doctorate from some equally crackpottish evangelical brainwashing factory do not an expert make.
 

FallenHero

Diamond Member
Jan 2, 2006
5,659
0
0
Question for Craig234: Are you for or against slavery? You seem to be all over the place in your musings.

Me? I'm totally against the institution. It's an abomination. Anything that helps put an end to it is a good thing. If only it were a dead issue today, but it isn't.

So help me out here....Are you for or against the practice of slavery?

So Stating the factual basis of the civil war = supporting slavery?
 

a777pilot

Diamond Member
Apr 26, 2011
4,261
21
81
I guess I am not up to the intellectual standards of this forum.

So let me pose a serious question to those that have taken the time to post on this thread: Should I continue to post here or should I just go away?

Thank you.
 

jhbball

Platinum Member
Mar 20, 2002
2,917
23
81
I guess I am not up to the intellectual standards of this forum.

So let me pose a serious question to those that have taken the time to post on this thread: Should I continue to post here or should I just go away?

Thank you.

I vote stay (just for the lulz).
 

FallenHero

Diamond Member
Jan 2, 2006
5,659
0
0
I guess I am not up to the intellectual standards of this forum.

So let me pose a serious question to those that have taken the time to post on this thread: Should I continue to post here or should I just go away?

Thank you.

I don't think it has to do with intellectual standards. It has more to do with being open to differing viewpoints and being able to either 1) Defend yours with relevant facts or 2) Acknowledge that another viewpoint has merit and adjust or completely abandon your current one. I think you believed you would get 100% support in this thread and seem disappointed when it backfired on you because well...there are people here that study history and specific time periods. They have read various books and listened to people talk about them and have made an informed decision as to how to view the entire topic. From the looks of it, your viewpoint seems one dimensional and thus, difficult to defend and justify.
 

Deeko

Lifer
Jun 16, 2000
30,213
12
81
The man from Mr. Glenn Beck's show is named David Barton, an expert in historical and constitutional issues and he holds a Bachelors degree from Oral Roberts University and an honorary Ph.D from Pensacola Christian College. He has millions of dedicated followers including Mike Huckabee. And you think you know more about our nation's history than him?

I can't be the only one that completely discounted anything else in this post after reading "Mr Glenn Beck"
 

a777pilot

Diamond Member
Apr 26, 2011
4,261
21
81
I don't think it has to do with intellectual standards. It has more to do with being open to differing viewpoints and being able to either 1) Defend yours with relevant facts or 2) Acknowledge that another viewpoint has merit and adjust or completely abandon your current one. I think you believed you would get 100% support in this thread and seem disappointed when it backfired on you because well...there are people here that study history and specific time periods. They have read various books and listened to people talk about them and have made an informed decision as to how to view the entire topic. From the looks of it, your viewpoint seems one dimensional and thus, difficult to defend and justify.


I am on many sites. I know the rules....written and the un-written.

I am not looking for 100% support....I'm not that Polish.


I thought this would be an interesting site and I would have some fun, but it doesn't seem that this is a site for those that are looking to have some fun. Posters here are way too serious.

It's the internet, People. It's NOT real life.

My question stands: Stay or leave?
 

FallenHero

Diamond Member
Jan 2, 2006
5,659
0
0
I am on many sites. I know the rules....written and the un-written.

I am not looking for 100% support....I'm not that Polish.


I thought this would be an interesting site and I would have some fun, but it doesn't seem that this is a site for those that are looking to have some fun. Posters here are way too serious.

It's the internet, People. It's NOT real life.

My question stands: Stay or leave?

P&N isn't for fun fool. This place is for trolls and partisan hacks. Off Topic is for fun.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,413
54,092
136
I am on many sites. I know the rules....written and the un-written.

I am not looking for 100% support....I'm not that Polish.


I thought this would be an interesting site and I would have some fun, but it doesn't seem that this is a site for those that are looking to have some fun. Posters here are way too serious.

It's the internet, People. It's NOT real life.

My question stands: Stay or leave?

You're saying this board is no fun, so why would you stay? Don't ask us, just decide for yourself.
 
Aug 23, 2000
15,509
1
81
That question is even too stupid for me to answer....and that takes a lot of stupidity.

He makes a good point. The northerns weren't doing it to be noble and the southerns weren't doing it to be noble.
As stated many times and what seems to be over looked is the North didn't begin the war over slavery and didn't really care about it until midway through the war.
If the north was so noble about it why did they make the black soldiers fight in segregated units led by a white man, while the South had black soilders that fought along side of white soldiers. Slavery has been made out to be about blacks being slaves and whites owning them, when in fact there were Native American slaves and White slaves, mostly Irish, and the children of mixed races. The most overlooked part was there were freed slaves that inturn bought slaves of their own.
It wasn't institutionalized racism. It was institutionalized slavery.
 
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