4870 or 260

[geoffry]

Originally posted by: Cookie Monster
Technically IQ should be better with GTX260. AMD/ATi still uses an angel dependent AF algorithm which according to lopri can sometimes be visible unlike the G8x/G9x/G200 AF. AA is a tossup really.

Power usage as of now seems to be more efficient on the GTX260. The HD4870 can handle higher AA modes well, and does have other nice features like DX10.1. But then again, a GTX260 can OC pretty high, enough to reach GTX280 speeds. Noise is pretty subjective with reviews conflicting with one another in that regard.

Id get whatevers cheaper.

Also with havok, does it actually run faster on GPUs? its not like other cards are being left out, since havok's physics engine had been running on CPUs for quite a long time now without killing performance for that matter. Same goes for PhysX. Benchmark comparisons should be nice, but at this moment in time, i dont think it really matters for it to be one of the buying decisions IMO.

Havok doesn't run on the GPU yet, AMD has said they are working on it but havent given an ETA.

As for PhysX, I have heard lots of games supporting it are in the pipeline since the NVDA acquisition but I havent heard anything specific recently so that might be fluff.

 

[amenx]

I thought they were roughly equivalent in load power draw, but in idle, there is a HUGE difference in favor of the 260.

Still I would go for the 4870 since its performance is ahead of the 260 and costs about 25% less.

Re the ATI vs Nvidia IQ debate, that I believe was the popuar belief from ATIs 9800 Pro days and maybe carried to the 1900xtx series. You would hear it all the time in forums a few years ago. But why anyone would think this idea would last for eternity despite many changes in GPU architectures every year is beyond me.

 

[fierydemise]

Assuming both are at MSRP its a no-brainier, the HD4870 is faster by more then a bit in most cases. However if you can find the 260 cheaper like in the above ZZF thread (although OOS now) I would probably go with the 260 which would put its performance more inline with its price.

 

[jamesbond007]

Originally posted by: airhendrix13
I was actually looking to buy a 4870 from BB a few days ago and use my 12% off coupon. According to the BB employee, you CAN use a 12% off coupon. They have a customer satisfaction program where you pay for the product there, then they call it in and have it shipped to your house. So during your purchase, you can use the coupon! It should cut a good $35 off the GTX 260 and the 4870!

Verrrrry interesting. Bah, it's so hard to justify a new videocard purchase when you don't game that much. I have an 85L and 16-35MK2 in my cart at B&H and am nearly ready to check out...

~Travis

 

[bangmal]

Originally posted by: hemmy
I see no image quality difference, they are so similar, to find a difference you would have to zoom a picture 500% and check the size of 1 or 2 jaggies

Oh really? you must be either blind or just a paid nvidia pumper.

nvidia has been known for cheating in lowering the quality for afew fps increase.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/misc/p...on_ati_msaa_8x.jpg&1=1

http://www.xbitlabs.com/misc/p...ion_nv_msaa_8x.jpg&1=1

do you need to "zoom a picture 500%" to see a difference?

 

[Cookie Monster]

Here we go again.. sigh

 

[taltamir]

the jagged edges are practically identical in those two pictures. But the brightness is too high on the nvidia card, and the trees have lots more leafs that look much better on the AMD card.
As far as jagged edges go, I looked very carefully but I am having a hard time spotting any in either picture. Except for areas where the brightness is too high (the columns).
The gamma adjustment seems perfect in the ATI one, but rather bad on the nVidia one.

 

[tuteja1986]

ATI AA 101 :

http://doomstar.awardspace.com/aa1.html


lammer term explanation:

Narrow-tent = blurs the image
Wide-Tent = blurs the image
box & Edge-detect = They are good quality mode
8x Edge Detect or 8x box with Quality Adaptive AA = Ass whopping AA mode that destroys everything.

Now when you are using Quality Adaptive AA make sure you have turned of Cat AI otherwise it may not work in some game like Half life 2.

Havok doesn't run on the GPU yet, AMD has said they are working on it but havent given an ETA. As for PhysX, I have heard lots of games supporting it are in the pipeline since the NVDA acquisition but I havent heard anything specific recently so that might be fluff.

Well Nvidia cliams that 60% of PC game will support Physicx which is BS i think. They don't have alot of major PC developer on board with physicx.

Upcoming Havock supported game :

Relic : Dawn of War 2
Valve : HL episode 3 , Portal 2 , left 4 dead
Blizzard : Starcraft , Diablo 3
Bethesda : Fallout 3
DICE : Battlefield 3
Pendemic studios : Mercenaries 2
Remedy Ent : Alan Wake
LUCASARTS : Star Wars: The Force Unleased

So unless these game have dual support , Nvidia physicx is destined to fail.

 

[BFG10K]

Originally posted by: bangmal
Oh really? you must be either blind or just a paid nvidia pumper.

nvidia has been known for cheating in lowering the quality for afew fps increase.

Barring driver issues anti-aliasing image quality at 8xQ (nVidia) and 8xAA (ATi) should be identical.

Now 24xAA with edge detect OTOH, that appears to be superior to 16xQ without any significant blurring. That isn't nVidia ?cheating? though, that?s just vendors offering different AA levels.

Originally posted by: tuteja1986

Now when you are using Quality Adaptive AA make sure you have turned of Cat AI otherwise it may not work in some game like Half life 2.

Since when? I was trying AAA on my X800XL yesterday (Catalyst 8.6) and it was working fine in HL2 with Catalyst AI set to standard.

 

[tuteja1986]

Originally posted by: BFG10K

Originally posted by: bangmal
Oh really? you must be either blind or just a paid nvidia pumper.

nvidia has been known for cheating in lowering the quality for afew fps increase.

Barring driver issues anti-aliasing image quality at 8xQ (nVidia) and 8xAA (ATi) should be identical.

Now 24xAA with edge detect OTOH, that appears to be superior to 16xQ without any significant blurring. That isn't nVidia ?cheating? though, that?s just vendors offering different AA levels.

Originally posted by: tuteja1986

Now when you are using Quality Adaptive AA make sure you have turned of Cat AI otherwise it may not work in some game like Half life 2.

Since when? I was trying AAA on my X800XL yesterday (Catalyst 8.6) and it was working fine in HL2 with Catalyst AI set to standard.

well for some reason it doesn't work on HD48XX without Cat AI disabled ... maybe its a driver bug.

 

[taltamir]

well that 260$ for GTX260 deal is dead, it is now 360 - 40MIR.

So the 4870 is cheaper again.

 

[kmmatney]

Originally posted by: mmnno

Originally posted by: taltamir
are they the same price? the 4870 wins most games, the GTX260 wins some games, but they are fairly equivalent in performance...
4870: better driver, DX10.1, eventual havok support (maybe).
GTX: physX support now.

I think havok isnt a part of the equasion, too long a wait, if ever. DX10.1 + greater win ratio for 4870 balances out physX (both just give better performance in a few rare titles). Driver support is a little better with AMD, which is a biggie for me, still not a deal breaker.

When you get right down to it. Those two cards are so closely matched, I would buy the cheaper one...
The GTX wins some tests, the 4870 wins others, but AFAIK nobody is selling them for the same price. The GTX 260, even after mail in rebate, costs at least 50$ more anywhere.

$260 AR

Haven't found any 4870s cheaper than that.

The link you gave is for a $369.99 card - at least that's what I get for the price.

 

[taltamir]

that is because the price went up by 70$.
that 260 for 260 deal is dead and gone.

 

[airhendrix13]

Now $329.99 after MIB!

*Edited because I posted nonsense*

 

[shangshang]

I think once NV goes completely 55nm process, it will drop all prices again, and AMD will really feel the squeeze. AMD doesn't have the capital to sell cards at a loss.

 

[chevmaro]

I can tell you one thing. The 4870 image quality is very nice. I upgraded from a 8800GTS and it was much better. Same graphic settings and same res. Im sure the 260 would look better then my gts too but I was impressed with this card.

 

[Gikaseixas]

The ATI is a better buy period.

 

[Munky]

Originally posted by: shangshang
I think once NV goes completely 55nm process, it will drop all prices again, and AMD will really feel the squeeze. AMD doesn't have the capital to sell cards at a loss.

The shareholders will crucify NV if it sells cards at a loss, so it's not like NV can afford to give these away either. And even after the gt200 shrinks to 55nm, NV will need a clock bump just to match the rv770 in performance/mm^2. Nv will need to pull another 9600gt rabbit out of their collective hats to put pressure on AMD at this point.

 

[raddreamer3kx]

so when are these 260 cards going to drop in price, I see there around $360, everybody is saying that there the same price as the 4870's, I dont see that.

 

[shangshang]

Originally posted by: munky

Originally posted by: shangshang
I think once NV goes completely 55nm process, it will drop all prices again, and AMD will really feel the squeeze. AMD doesn't have the capital to sell cards at a loss.

The shareholders will crucify NV if it sells cards at a loss, so it's not like NV can afford to give these away either. And even after the gt200 shrinks to 55nm, NV will need a clock bump just to match the rv770 in performance/mm^2. Nv will need to pull another 9600gt rabbit out of their collective hats to put pressure on AMD at this point.

Shareholders can bitch all they want, but that doesn't always mean management will listen. Management are not paid to listen to shareholders. AMD shareholders have been and still are bitching about their losses for almost the last decade, nothing seems to change. Shareholders for the most part are traders looking to make quick money; most don't think strategically like management.

I think once NV goes completely to 55nm, it will open up some more options for them, like stringing together 2 GTX+ on one card and possibly sell a "GTX+ X2" for $230 or even lower! (depending on yield) and this will put tremendous pressure on AMD. In a pricewar of attrition, the company with healthier financial sheets will usually win out. AMD is not a healthy company financially, and can't afford a drawn out pricewar, and frankly neither can NV afford a drawn out priceware (due to Intel). It will be a game of chicken.

I think NV's issue right now is mainly yield, not architeture. The 55nm process will help their yield across the board.

 

[solofly]

Originally posted by: raddreamer3kx
so when are these 260 cards going to drop in price, I see there around $360, everybody is saying that there the same price as the 4870's, I dont see that.

Because that's not the case. At my local store the cheapest 260gtx is $370 where as HD4870 goes for $290. That's Canadian dollars which about the same as US currency.

 

[Martimus]

Originally posted by: shangshang
I think once NV goes completely to 55nm, it will open up some more options for them, like stringing together 2 GTX+ on one card and possibly sell a "GTX+ X2" for $230 or even lower! (depending on yield) and this will put tremendous pressure on AMD. In a pricewar of attrition, the company with healthier financial sheets will usually win out. AMD is not a healthy company financially, and can't afford a drawn out pricewar, and frankly neither can NV afford a drawn out priceware (due to Intel). It will be a game of chicken.

The 9800 GTX+ is already a 55nm part. If nVidia could sell an GX2 version for the same price as the single GPU version, they would have set the MSRP lower to begin with as it is already overpriced for the performance. I really doubt that a die shrink is the magic bullet you seem to believe it is, but I am sure that it will help nVidia, especially for yields if that is truly their biggest problem (as you state). Of course, AMD will do the same and shrink the RV770 to 45nm as well. I would guess around November in order to sell the cards for the holiday season.

 

[Munky]

Originally posted by: shangshang

Originally posted by: munky

Originally posted by: shangshang
I think once NV goes completely 55nm process, it will drop all prices again, and AMD will really feel the squeeze. AMD doesn't have the capital to sell cards at a loss.

The shareholders will crucify NV if it sells cards at a loss, so it's not like NV can afford to give these away either. And even after the gt200 shrinks to 55nm, NV will need a clock bump just to match the rv770 in performance/mm^2. Nv will need to pull another 9600gt rabbit out of their collective hats to put pressure on AMD at this point.

Shareholders can bitch all they want, but that doesn't always mean management will listen. Management are not paid to listen to shareholders. AMD shareholders have been and still are bitching about their losses for almost the last decade, nothing seems to change. Shareholders for the most part are traders looking to make quick money; most don't think strategically like management.

Tell that to the Yahoo shareholders. That kind of thinking can ultimately cost NV even more money than selling cards at a loss. In fact, it will even make it easier for some bigger company to buy them out.

I think once NV goes completely to 55nm, it will open up some more options for them, like stringing together 2 GTX+ on one card and possibly sell a "GTX+ X2" for $230 or even lower! (depending on yield) and this will put tremendous pressure on AMD. In a pricewar of attrition, the company with healthier financial sheets will usually win out. AMD is not a healthy company financially, and can't afford a drawn out pricewar, and frankly neither can NV afford a drawn out priceware (due to Intel). It will be a game of chicken.

I think NV's issue right now is mainly yield, not architeture. The 55nm process will help their yield across the board.

Wrong. NV's major issue right now IS architecture, because they've spent a bunch of transistors on gpgpu features that contribute absolutely nothing to gaming performance. The 55nm shrink alone will not save them, because they still have to cram about half a billion transistors more than the competition into each gpu. What they need is a 55nm shrink AND a new stripped down gpu that gets rid of all those features like DP ALU's which don't get used in games.

 

[shangshang]

^ you're thinking what NV should do to best sell a GAMING card. But NV management is thinking BEYOND GAMING, hence their archicture. So either you're wrong or NV management is wrong.

Let's not forget that ATI held a dominant position with the 9800PRO years ago, and what has ATI done since? AMD (pre-ATI days) also once held a dominant position in the CPU market with their K7 years ago (I still remember AMD fanboys calling for a death of Intel). So it can be argued that ATI and AMD have not done much with their dominance position. (before NV came along, there were 3d FX and ATI)

You look at NV as a gaming company. NV looks at NV as something more.

And last I checked, Yahoo shareholders were bitching, but their CEO was still calling the shot. With Yahoo, there's also power struggle within the organization too, with each side trying to pull shareholders to their side. But with NV, there isn't such a division of shareholders (yet). Now if NV stock drops another 30%, then you can make a case for shareholders revolting. But my opinion is that most shareholders will bail before they'll stick around to revolt.

And while you're quick to point out a possible NV shareholder revolt, you conviently ignore AMD shareholder on-and-off mini-revolt and pain for the last decade. If you were an NV shareholder 9 years ago and sold today, you'd be rich by now. If you were an AMD shareholder 9 years ago and sold today, you'd poorer.

 

[Munky]

And now you're going off another tangent altogether. How much cash NV makes from selling the gt200 as a number crunching card is incosequential to this discussion. Last I checked, both AMD and NV are charging well over $1000 for a high end gpu rebadged into a gpgpu processor. But the 4870 and 4850 are GAMING cards, which offer a better value than competing NV GAMING cards, and if NV wants to put pressure on AMD in that area, it's sure not going to happen by touting all the fancy gpgpu features to the gaming consumers.