7800GS AGP reviews...

[SoundTheSurrender]

I'm still on a nforce 2 board, I would rather pay 307 for a videocard, then 200 dollars for a PCIx videocard + a new processor + a new motherboard + a PSU etc.

You can O/c the 7800Gs and it does a better job.

 

[v8envy]

Originally posted by: CKXP
off topic here, but v8envy where did you get that s939 sempron?

CompUSA, it was $125 after rebate. It came with some extras -- they threw in an 80mm fan cpu cooler, Asus motherboard with a passively cooled X200 IGP chipset, 100G hard drive, 250 watt Delta PS, 256M of CAS3 PC3200, and an XP home license.

The sr1710nx is what I'm talking about, if you hadn't guessed by now. With the addition of a $63 shipped newegg Jaton 6600 non-gt and 1G of FAR PC2700 ram from a few years ago, I've got a fairly capable gaming rig for a hair under $200. Pretty far cry from $1500. =)

p.s. Speaking of Far Cry, the stock IGP ran Far Cry at 8x6, and Guild Wars at 10x7. I was shocked.

 

[v8envy]

Originally posted by: djmihow
I'm still on a nforce 2 board, I would rather pay 307 for a videocard, then 200 dollars for a PCIx videocard + a new processor + a new motherboard + a PSU etc.

You can O/c the 7800Gs and it does a better job.

Back to my original question. If you're willing to spend $307 now, why weren't you willing to spend $200 a few days ago for an equivalent card?

If you say so re: overclocking. The cards already come OCd from the factory (because the manufacturers rightfully realized releasing a card with identical performance to the 6800GS PCIe would get them 0 sales), so who knows how much headroom you've got left.

 

[NoStateofMind]

Originally posted by: v8envy

Originally posted by: djmihow
I'm still on a nforce 2 board, I would rather pay 307 for a videocard, then 200 dollars for a PCIx videocard + a new processor + a new motherboard + a PSU etc.

You can O/c the 7800Gs and it does a better job.

Back to my original question. If you're willing to spend $307 now, why weren't you willing to spend $200 a few days ago for an equivalent card?

Maybe because like in my case, they didn't have the money then?

If you say so re: overclocking. The cards already come OCd from the factory (because the manufacturers rightfully realized releasing a card with identical performance to the 6800GS PCIe would get them 0 sales), so who knows how much headroom you've got left.

It still wouldn't be identical, same clock, but the 7800GS comes with 16 pipes stock.

 

[v8envy]

Originally posted by: PC Surgeon

It still wouldn't be identical, same clock, but the 7800GS comes with 16 pipes stock.

Er, what'd I miss? If it was reference clocked, 375 mhz for the 7800GS vs 425 on the 12 pipe 6800GS or 350 mhz on the 16 pipe 6800GT. I'm not talking about the 6800GS AGP, that's a whole different product.

The 7800GS at stock speed would be faster than a 6800GS PCIe, but by a very slim margin. Which was my point -- that's why the first cards out of the gate are factory OCd (to ~440mhz) ones. Which is why I don't think you're going to get a much further overclock out of these bad boys.

 

[Gstanfor]

Originally posted by: djmihow

Originally posted by: Gstanfor
Well, as it stands the 7800GS is underwhelming and AGP owners need to send nVidia a clear message to that effect.

However, on the bright side we now have an AGP PCB that should be capable of making use of all G70 cores - we just need an enterprising company to put a GT or GTX core on the bord instead of the crappy crippleware nVidia decided to saddle us with.

I beg to differ, its cheaper then the ATI version, and when o/c it beats it.

It's still garbage IMO. There is *nothing* technically stopping a 7800GTX class AGP part from being made. I don't enjoy being treated as though I'm black and living in south africa, just because I use AGP.

Anyway as I said now we have the PCB it should be possible foer a card builder to make something decent out of it, and anyone brave enough to do so stands to earn a ton of cash and an appreciative customer base.

 

[v8envy]

Originally posted by: djmihow
I'm still on a nforce 2 board, I would rather pay 307 for a videocard, then 200 dollars for a PCIx videocard + a new processor + a new motherboard + a PSU etc.

You can O/c the 7800Gs and it does a better job.

Oh, one final word. While you may be more comfortable sticking with nforce2 and XP, here is an alternative for everyone else:

http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=80502 -- $75 shipped, sempron64 2800+
http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=249010 -- $63 shipped, biostar 6100 chipset socket754 board.

Now, if you have a PSU that won't handle a 7800GT, it probably won't handle a 7800GS. Keep in mind an amd64 cpu is probably less of a powerhog than a Barton core XP.

So, the cost is $138 to migrate from a 3000+ XP to an equivalent amd64 sempron and PCIe. A few more bucks if you want 3200+ XP performance. I'm sure there are better deals out there too, which could maybe get the cost down to $100.

Now, subtract a few dollars for selling your old XP gear, and your migration cost is right down there with the guys who already have amd64 or modern P4s.

 

[NoStateofMind]

Originally posted by: v8envy

Originally posted by: PC Surgeon

It still wouldn't be identical, same clock, but the 7800GS comes with 16 pipes stock.

Er, what'd I miss? If it was reference clocked, 375 mhz for the 7800GS vs 425 on the 12 pipe 6800GS or 350 mhz on the 16 pipe 6800GT. I'm not talking about the 6800GS AGP, that's a whole different product.

The 7800GS at stock speed would be faster than a 6800GS PCIe, but by a very slim margin. Which was my point -- that's why the first cards out of the gate are factory OCd (to ~440mhz) ones. Which is why I don't think you're going to get a much further overclock out of these bad boys.

My mistake, I thought it was the AGP version you were talking about (skimmed over the PCIe part

This next part is for anyone who thinks buying an 7800GS is a waste.

On the note of upgrading or what you are saying a 'platform upgrade', many people have capable systems for everything except for gaming. It would make no sence for someone like me to ditch a P4 3.0 for another CPU just for a PCIe slot. My machine does everything I ask it to do, except for gaming. All I need to game for another year would to buy a 7800GS. That will give me the time I need to get the cash to buy say M2 with PCIe 2.0...Do you get what I am saying? So in short, it would be more of a waste to drop all of my capable system for a PCIe slot. That my friends is simply rediculous IMO.

 

[v8envy]

Guess NVidia marketing is right. AGP users are itching to spend over $300 for a mainstream level video card.

I guess I'll never understand why that is. Why $300 is a great deal for that level of video performance, when $200 all of last month was not. And why an obsolete box requires a 7800GS rather than a 6600GT, X1600 or X850.

 

[SoundTheSurrender]

Originally posted by: v8envy

Originally posted by: djmihow
I'm still on a nforce 2 board, I would rather pay 307 for a videocard, then 200 dollars for a PCIx videocard + a new processor + a new motherboard + a PSU etc.

You can O/c the 7800Gs and it does a better job.

Oh, one final word. While you may be more comfortable sticking with nforce2 and XP, here is an alternative for everyone else:

http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=80502 -- $75 shipped, sempron64 2800+
http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=249010 -- $63 shipped, biostar 6100 chipset socket754 board.

Now, if you have a PSU that won't handle a 7800GT, it probably won't handle a 7800GS. Keep in mind an amd64 cpu is probably less of a powerhog than a Barton core XP.

So, the cost is $138 to migrate from a 3000+ XP to an equivalent amd64 sempron and PCIe. A few more bucks if you want 3200+ XP performance. I'm sure there are better deals out there too, which could maybe get the cost down to $100.

Now, subtract a few dollars for selling your old XP gear, and your migration cost is right down there with the guys who already have amd64 or modern P4s.

I'm not going to buy crap components that are out of date man. If i were to build a better computer it should last a little bit longer then buying bottom of the barrell again.

 

[v8envy]

Originally posted by: djmihow

I'm not going to buy crap components that are out of date man. If i were to build a better computer it should last a little bit longer then buying bottom of the barrell again.

Better costs money. The asstastic obsolete cheap hardware will be at least equivalent to what you have now, but it'll get you into PCIe. You'll be able to resell a PCIe card later this year. Probably not so much with an AGP card.

My whole point is at $307, the 7800GS is a horrifyingly bad deal, but everyone is eating it up. The X850XT for $200 last month was * the * card to get for people trying to make their crusty boxes last another year. A vastly cheaper 6600GT or X1600 today will be good enough to last until new tech. For $200, the 7800GS is a worthy upgrade. For $307, no way.

The 7800GS AGP is not a godsend, it's a slap in the face to AGP users. NVidia is saying, "Hey, wake up. Migrate to PCIe already, we're sick of having twice as many SKUs because of you."

 

[imported_Com80787]

Originally posted by: djmihow

Originally posted by: v8envy

Originally posted by: djmihow
I'm still on a nforce 2 board, I would rather pay 307 for a videocard, then 200 dollars for a PCIx videocard + a new processor + a new motherboard + a PSU etc.

You can O/c the 7800Gs and it does a better job.

Oh, one final word. While you may be more comfortable sticking with nforce2 and XP, here is an alternative for everyone else:

http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=80502 -- $75 shipped, sempron64 2800+
http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=249010 -- $63 shipped, biostar 6100 chipset socket754 board.

Now, if you have a PSU that won't handle a 7800GT, it probably won't handle a 7800GS. Keep in mind an amd64 cpu is probably less of a powerhog than a Barton core XP.

So, the cost is $138 to migrate from a 3000+ XP to an equivalent amd64 sempron and PCIe. A few more bucks if you want 3200+ XP performance. I'm sure there are better deals out there too, which could maybe get the cost down to $100.

Now, subtract a few dollars for selling your old XP gear, and your migration cost is right down there with the guys who already have amd64 or modern P4s.

I'm not going to buy crap components that are out of date man. If i were to build a better computer it should last a little bit longer then buying bottom of the barrell again.

I'm surprised he didn't link to PC Chips mobo combos. No thanks you can keep your cheapo ECS/biostar/pc chips/etc combo deals. I prefer my $150 high quality, stable, and reliable mobo with an AGP slot to a PCIe cheapo board that will cause me nothing but grief.

 

[NoStateofMind]

Originally posted by: v8envy
Guess NVidia marketing is right. AGP users are itching to spend over $300 for a mainstream level video card.

I guess I'll never understand why that is. Why $300 is a great deal for that level of video performance, when $200 all of last month was not. And why an obsolete box requires a 7800GS rather than a 6600GT, X1600 or X850.

Dude..are you deaf? Are you illiterate? If those are true then forgive me for what I am about to say. It may be "mainstream" to PCIe owners but sure the hell isn't to us AGP owners. AGAIN I SAY, SOME MAY NOT HAVE HAD THE MONEY LAST MONTH FOR THE $250 ($200AR) X850XT!!! NOONE SAID ANYTHING ABOUT THE X850XT NOT BEING A GOOD DEAL AND THIS BEING BETTER, DID YOU PULL THAT OUT OF YOUR A$$ TO TRY TO SUPPORT YOUR VIEW?????

Now that being said, It would be nothing short of a sidegrade for me to get a PCIe board, because of the money factor. When you factor in CPU, Motherboard + a Video card....you are spending way more than $300!!! Simple economics that you cannot understand. Why in hell would you throw away a perfectly working system for a PCIe slot???

Anyone who suggests throwing away a system like mine (and is satisfied with performance other than gaming) has money to throw around. I for one, DON'T! So Keep your PCIe slot, I'll be there in a year. Until then, comment on your own finances!

 

[CKXP]

Originally posted by: PC Surgeon

Originally posted by: v8envy
Guess NVidia marketing is right. AGP users are itching to spend over $300 for a mainstream level video card.

I guess I'll never understand why that is. Why $300 is a great deal for that level of video performance, when $200 all of last month was not. And why an obsolete box requires a 7800GS rather than a 6600GT, X1600 or X850.

Dude..are you deaf? Are you illiterate? If those are true then forgive me for what I am about to say. It may be "mainstream" to PCIe owners but sure the hell isn't to us AGP owners. AGAIN I SAY, SOME MAY NOT HAVE HAD THE MONEY LAST MONTH FOR THE $250 ($200AR) X850XT!!! NOONE SAID ANYTHING ABOUT THE X850XT NOT BEING A GOOD DEAL AND THIS BEING BETTER, DID YOU PULL THAT OUT OF YOUR A$$ TO TRY TO SUPPORT YOUR VIEW?????

Now that being said, It would be nothing short of a sidegrade for me to get a PCIe board, because of the money factor. When you factor in CPU, Motherboard + a Video card....you are spending way more than $300!!! Simple economics that you cannot understand. Why in hell would you throw away a perfectly working system for a PCIe slot???

Anyone who suggests throwing away a system like mine (and is satisfied with performance other than gaming) has money to throw around. I for one, DON'T! So Keep your PCIe slot, I'll be there in a year. Until then, comment on your own finances!

whoa...have a couple of these :beer:

 

[morfinx]

Originally posted by: PC Surgeon

Originally posted by: v8envy
Guess NVidia marketing is right. AGP users are itching to spend over $300 for a mainstream level video card.

I guess I'll never understand why that is. Why $300 is a great deal for that level of video performance, when $200 all of last month was not. And why an obsolete box requires a 7800GS rather than a 6600GT, X1600 or X850.

Dude..are you deaf? Are you illiterate? If those are true then forgive me for what I am about to say. It may be "mainstream" to PCIe owners but sure the hell isn't to us AGP owners. AGAIN I SAY, SOME MAY NOT HAVE HAD THE MONEY LAST MONTH FOR THE $250 ($200AR) X850XT!!! NOONE SAID ANYTHING ABOUT THE X850XT NOT BEING A GOOD DEAL AND THIS BEING BETTER, DID YOU PULL THAT OUT OF YOUR A$$ TO TRY TO SUPPORT YOUR VIEW?????

Now that being said, It would be nothing short of a sidegrade for me to get a PCIe board, because of the money factor. When you factor in CPU, Motherboard + a Video card....you are spending way more than $300!!! Simple economics that you cannot understand. Why in hell would you throw away a perfectly working system for a PCIe slot???

Anyone who suggests throwing away a system like mine (and is satisfied with performance other than gaming) has money to throw around. I for one, DON'T! So Keep your PCIe slot, I'll be there in a year. Until then, comment on your own finances!

QFT

 

[v8envy]

Originally posted by: PC Surgeon
Keep your PCIe slot, I'll be there in a year. Until then, comment on your own finances!

Ok, since you lambasted me for commenting on others finances (even though I specifically ignored your comment specifically not do so): someone who didn't have $250 four days ago should NOT be blowing over $300 this month.

Since PCIe versions of the X850XT are hovering at about $200, you'll see the AGP ones in the $200 range again just as soon as retailers realize they're selling exactly 0 of them at nearly $400. Unlike the 6800Ultra, there are just too many X800/X850 cores out there for manufacturers and etailers to hang on to them like treasured keepsakes. The best place to unload those cores is AGP users, there's simply no competition in that market yet.

My points: the 7800GS is not that good, and simply not worth such a giant wad of cash. If all you're doing is trying to make an obsolete box last another year, pick up a 9800Pro or 6600GT or X1600. The 7800GS is better, but not *THAT* much better.

Many PCIe owners buy 6600GT vs 6800GS, and the difference there is $120 vs $180. How is a $150 to $307 price delta for roughly the same performance delta in AGP a good thing, and worthy of your financial support?

If you want to become a gaming enthusiast, you have NO CHOICE but to upgrade to PCIe. Being willing to blow enthsiast level bank on a mainstream performance AGP card does not send a good message to NV/ATI, and that's really the whole beef I have with this product. NV is seeing if people are willing to blow over $300 for a mainstream card.

 

[NoStateofMind]

Originally posted by: v8envy

Originally posted by: PC Surgeon
Keep your PCIe slot, I'll be there in a year. Until then, comment on your own finances!

Ok, since you lambasted me for commenting on others finances (even though I specifically ignored your comment specifically not do so): someone who didn't have $250 four days ago should NOT be blowing over $300 this month.

Last month wasn't tax return time

It isn't BLOWING money, It's an investment for a year of gaming

What someone SHOULD do is entirely up to them.


You know, we can go back and forth for the rest of the AGP lifespan argueing over who is right. Both points are valid, to each of us, and will remain so. I cannot convince you of my reasons and neither can you convince me of yours. So I say STFU to both of us and leave it at that.

 

[308nato]

I picked up the BFG version at BB today. Its quiet, doesn't seem to heat up the case and was a great upgrade from 9500 Pro. In a nutshell, I am happy.

 

[NoStateofMind]

Originally posted by: 308nato
I picked up the BFG version at BB today. Its quiet, doesn't seem to heat up the case and was a great upgrade from 9500 Pro. In a nutshell, I am happy.

Cool! What games do you play, and at what settings? Framerate?

 

[SoundTheSurrender]

yes, please let us know what your system is too!

 

[morfinx]

What about getting a X850 Pro and flashing it to X850XT PE? I think that might be a viable solution as well.

 

[Jeff7181]

Originally posted by: v8envy

Originally posted by: djmihow
I'm still on a nforce 2 board, I would rather pay 307 for a videocard, then 200 dollars for a PCIx videocard + a new processor + a new motherboard + a PSU etc.

You can O/c the 7800Gs and it does a better job.

Back to my original question. If you're willing to spend $307 now, why weren't you willing to spend $200 a few days ago for an equivalent card?

If you say so re: overclocking. The cards already come OCd from the factory (because the manufacturers rightfully realized releasing a card with identical performance to the 6800GS PCIe would get them 0 sales), so who knows how much headroom you've got left.

So you're saying a PCI Express 6800GS performs the same as a 6800 Ultra or x850XT? I don't buy it... not for a second. The 7800GS performs similarly to the x850XT (wins some, loses some) at it's stock speed based on nVidia's specs. And since it has the same number of pipelines and same number of ROP's and faster memory than a 6800 Ultra, and it's an improved architecture over the GeForce 6 series, it should perform at least as well as a 6800 Ultra. Therefore, based on your logic... PCIe 6800GS = 7800GS = 6800 Ultra.

 

[evolucion8]

There's no effect that SM 3.0 can do that SM 2.0b cannot, ATi took charge of tweaking and unlocking features like Geometry Instancing that were locked in 2.0. they meant to released it later on 3.0. SM 3.0 is just about performance and True Displacement Mapping, (A Vertex Shader feature) something that doesn't look any better than the Virtual Displacement Mapping on the SM 2.0 (Only if you look very close to the screen). ATi can do the True Displacement Mapping via R2VB command on all the R3X0, R4X0 and current generations, they're genious, but pity they don't encourage developers to use them. DirectX 9 since it was released, it cames with all the features, it was not patched or something. The HDR is not a feature of the SM 3.0, It doesn't say Microsoft HDR. The HDR implementation on the R3X0 and R4X0 series was based on Integer, the HDR on the NV4X and G7X was based on the OpenEX FP16 standard, again, no Microsoft Open EX standard, see? Since this last one was more popular, it has been used more widely, but both pretty much have the same results, but this last one has a bit of more precision and the biggest impact on performance. So at this time is quite stupid seeing people saying that SM 3.0 will improove IQ when developers say the opposite.

 

[Jeff7181]

Originally posted by: evolucion8
There's no effect that SM 3.0 can do that SM 2.0b cannot, ATi took charge of tweaking and unlocking features like Geometry Instancing that were locked in 2.0. they meant to released it later on 3.0. SM 3.0 is just about performance and True Displacement Mapping, something that doesn't look any better than the Virtual Displacement Mapping on the SM 2.0 (Only if you look very close to the screen). DirectX 9 since it was released, it cames with all the features, it was not patched or something. The HDR is not a feature of the SM 3.0, It doesn't say Microsoft HDR. The HDR implementation on the R3X0 and R4X0 series was based on Integer, the HDR on the NV4X and G7X was based on the OpenEX FP16 standard, again, no Microsoft Open EX standard, see? Since this last one was more popular, it has been used more widely, but both pretty much have the same results, but this last one has a bit of more precision and the biggest impact on performance.

Ummm... post in the wrong thread or somethin?

 

[v8envy]

Originally posted by: Jeff7181
[
So you're saying a PCI Express 6800GS performs the same as a 6800 Ultra or x850XT? I don't buy it... not for a second. The 7800GS performs similarly to the x850XT (wins some, loses some) at it's stock speed based on nVidia's specs. And since it has the same number of pipelines and same number of ROP's and faster memory than a 6800 Ultra, and it's an improved architecture over the GeForce 6 series, it should perform at least as well as a 6800 Ultra. Therefore, based on your logic... PCIe 6800GS = 7800GS = 6800 Ultra.

Gah. I was so going to let this go. Too bad Anand's review didn't have a 6800GS PCIe compared to the 7800GS. Other review sites did. But anyhoo:

http://anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2686

Fear, 1600x1200:
XTPE - 71.1 fps
7800GS - 57 fps

Fear, 1600x1200, 4xAA
XTPE: 22
7800GS: 13

Far Cry, 1600x1200, 4x AA
XTPE: 48.4
7800GS: 38.5

Q4, 1600x1200, no aa:
XTPE: 63.1
7800GS: 65.8

Q4, 1600x1200, 4xAA
XTPE: 35.3
7800GS: 34.5

Splinter Cell, 1600x1200, no AA
XTPE: 49.4
7800GS: 26.9

So, from this we can draw the conclusion that outside of OpenGL games like Quake4, the 7800GS at reference clocks gets its ASS handed to it by the XTPE, by a margin of up to 45%. About the same performance delta as XTPE vs 6800GT.

Reference clock for the 7800GS is 375 mhz. 6800 Ultra is 400 mhz.

Ergo, GS != XTPE != GT Ultra. And real world performance of a ref clocked 7800GS would be within the margin of error of a GS/GT, and thusly the first cards out of the gate have the clock cranked by 75 mhz. For this very reason. Which was my point.

The 7800GS is meant to function as a 6800GS/GT replacement for the AGP world. Other review sites have come to that conclusion as well. A 6800GT is a mainstream level video card, and in the PCIe market priced accordingly. However at $307 the 7800GS is priced as an enthusiast card. To recap, it's a horrible deal, and AGP users shouldn't stand for it.