7970 x2 Crossfire Microstutter unbrearable

[BrightCandle]

You need to set the limit of the fps limiter lower than your min fps. If you get at least 40fps, you have to set the limit to 39 or below.

Everyone I know has been able to eliminate stuttering with the limiter. Weird that it's not working on your rig. Please give an example where you used the limiter, what fps you got without it (you can disable it on the fly) and what you set your limit to.

See the Mass Effect 3 demo examples above where the machine can achieve 60 fps constant and I have set limits of 58 and 45 - still have stutter. I turn crossfire off however and the stutter is gone.

 

[boxleitnerb]

This is strange, that should not happen. What is your GPU load (both) with and without limiter?

 

[Via]

You really need to post a video.

 

[Keysplayr]

Download Fraps and do a framerate capture. Post Framtimes so we can check them out. Creates .csv or .xls files. Maybe then we can compare to others with similar setups as yourself. It may be that you're just more sensitive to it than others, as Lavaheadache mentioned above.

Things to try.
BIOS settings. All PCI-e slots are at least 8x (if possible to edit)

Check your temps. Are the GPU fans working/obstructed? Is the CPU temp ok? Throttling? Check case ventilation.

Check sound card driver or disable sound (just for temp troubleshooting purposes). Sometimes the sound drivers can cause stuttering in games or poor performance.

Have a spare hard drive? See if your windows install has become corrupted. Use the spare drive for a fresh intall of Windows, all latest drivers for ALL hardware, and games. Nothing else.

 

[Jacky60]

Download Fraps and do a framerate capture. Post Framtimes so we can check them out. Creates .csv or .xls files. Maybe then we can compare to others with similar setups as yourself. It may be that you're just more sensitive to it than others, as Lavaheadache mentioned above.

Things to try.
BIOS settings. All PCI-e slots are at least 8x (if possible to edit)

Check your temps. Are the GPU fans working/obstructed? Is the CPU temp ok? Throttling? Check case ventilation.

Check sound card driver or disable sound (just for temp troubleshooting purposes). Sometimes the sound drivers can cause stuttering in games or poor performance.

Have a spare hard drive? See if your windows install has become corrupted. Use the spare drive for a fresh intall of Windows, all latest drivers for ALL hardware, and games. Nothing else.

Have you disabled AMD audio in device manager?

 

[Bobisuruncle54]

You should try setting your fps limiter to 65.

I have a crossfire setup and BF3 was stuttering all over the place until I did that. Now it's extremely smooth because it's constantly between 60-65 fps.

 

[blackened23]

See the Mass Effect 3 demo examples above where the machine can achieve 60 fps constant and I have set limits of 58 and 45 - still have stutter. I turn crossfire off however and the stutter is gone.

The answer is extremely obvious. CAPs haven't been updated for ME3 yet, the game isnt' released. When you run dual dual GPU and 1 GPU runs at 300 mhz and another runs at 1125, IT WILL STUTTER. If 2 gpu's run at uneven speeds, stutter will happen. Wait for a CAP. Although i'm a single screen gamer so I can't comment on eyefinity performance....i've not had any microstutter at all with vsync turned on. I don't know if I get stutter with vsync off, but I get tearing which is obvious because I have a 2560 resolution IPS panel. (60hz). Anyway I don't get stutter in any of the games you mentioned, I'm not sure if its an eyefinity issue or what.

 

[boxleitnerb]

Isn't there the possibility to force AFR? He can just do that, then both GPUs will run at full speed. Remains to be seen if there are issues or not.

 

[blackened23]

Have you disabled AMD audio in device manager?

Yes, Keysplayr definitely disabled AMD audio in his device manager

 

[Keysplayr]

Yes, Keysplayr definitely disabled AMD audio in his device manager

I think he was just emphasizing what I had already said and quoted me.

Also, "The answer is extremely obvious. CAPs haven't been updated for ME3 yet, the game isnt' released."

The OP states it happens in more than just ME2. ARMA2 and F1 2011 for examples.

 

[lavaheadache]

People have to realize that everybodys definition of smooth is different. I've had friends marvel over my sli/crossfire setups and comment how smooth the gameplay was while I was seeing every little frame stutter driving me insane. I have also seen people playing game @ 25fps telling me how great their system plays.

I have/had

6600 gt sli
7800 gt sli
7800 gtx sli
8800 gt sli
gtx 460 sli
gtx 480 sli
x1800 crossfire
4870 tri fire
5870 crossfire

They all have had microstutter. It is fact.



http://techreport.com/articles.x/21516/11

That article is pretty good and is a must read.


If *you* don't see microstutter I envy you because I wish I didn't. I would love to have more GPU power for my u3011


*edit*

The recommendation to limit frame rates to just below the minimum you get is the most insane thing I have ever heard. Why spend double the money on cards to do such a thing?

 

[blackened23]

I've seen microstutter on some setups, but don't have an issue with it currently. So its not like i've never seen it before, I have seen it in the past. I really think its something specific to surround resolutions perhaps? -- everyone i've talked to who has tried ingame vsync combined with the MSI fps limiter reported no microstutter at all. I personally don't get any, I have to question whether some people turn vsync off and proclaim "microstutter", you have to turn vsync on because of tearing. Even 5870 xfire users who reported ms previously, mentioned that this fix removed it.

 

[WMD]

Try limiting the framerate to about where a single card would run on average. I bet that will eliminate any microstutter. I guess I was lucky cos I never noticed microstutter in any SLI or CF system ever.

 

[Kenmitch]

Maybe bump up your CPU speed and see if it helps? Disable hyperthreading? You gotta lot of cores/threads that windows is shifting the load on.

 

[zod96]

I just went threw this with my GTX560TI SLI setup and BF3. I switched to another set of drivers and low and behold the micro stutter went away. I think it has to do alot with what drivers you are using

 

[BrightCandle]

Thanks for all the responses, some useful ideas in there. Keysplayr wins the award for tracking it down first. Its my sound card that is causing the problem! Since the problem was appearing in Windows I couldn't believe it was just normal microstutter and since it was in everything (games and apps) it just couldn't be the usual problem. Turns out my Asus D2X Xonar is stuttering pretty badly the moment it plays sound.

The challenge however is that I am running the latest firmware and drivers from Asus for the card. I am running the latest bios and drivers for my motherboard from Asus as well, infact its all up to date. There is an odd interplay between crossfire and the sound however because its not all the sound card.

- With sound disabled I can't tell the difference between crossfire on and off (consistently better than say 40 fps feel)
- With sound enabled and no crossfire there is no apparent stutter. But compared to sound disabled windows performance is poor (but just enough to fool me into motion, something like 25 fps).
- With sound enabled and crossfire there is apparent stutter. It comes and goes but its around 20 fps feel at worst.
- With sound playing with no crossfire there is severe stutter on moving a window, probably as bad as 20 fps most of the time, with some big jumps.
- With sound playing and crossfire its really bad (feels like 15 fps).

Anyone seen this with Xonar cards before?

 

[3DVagabond]

Thanks for all the responses, some useful ideas in there. Keysplayr wins the award for tracking it down first. Its my sound card that is causing the problem! Since the problem was appearing in Windows I couldn't believe it was just normal microstutter and since it was in everything (games and apps) it just couldn't be the usual problem. Turns out my Asus D2X Xonar is stuttering pretty badly the moment it plays sound.

The challenge however is that I am running the latest firmware and drivers from Asus for the card. I am running the latest bios and drivers for my motherboard from Asus as well, infact its all up to date. There is an odd interplay between crossfire and the sound however because its not all the sound card.

- With sound disabled I can't tell the difference between crossfire on and off (consistently better than say 40 fps feel)
- With sound enabled and no crossfire there is no apparent stutter. But compared to sound disabled windows performance is poor (but just enough to fool me into motion, something like 25 fps).
- With sound enabled and crossfire there is apparent stutter. It comes and goes but its around 20 fps feel at worst.
- With sound playing with no crossfire there is severe stutter on moving a window, probably as bad as 20 fps most of the time, with some big jumps.
- With sound playing and crossfire its really bad (feels like 15 fps).

Anyone seen this with Xonar cards before?

This could be something that AMD can fix. Do a bug report. I had an app that would CDT when Soft Shadows was turned on in Open GL. I reported it and 2 drivers later, it was fixed. Luckily the prior drivers didn't have this problem and I was able to roll back to them and wait.

 

[BrightCandle]

The sound driver definitely makes the problem worse, but as recommended I used Fraps with a frame times benchmark to get a trace. In the below trace is a few seconds of moving a completely empty Chrome window left to right and back again on an empty Windows install. I think we can all agree that is hardly a challenge for a modern computer. But as you'll see in the traces below I have multiple occasions where there is a considerable and noticeable skip. At this point I only have a single 7970 in the machine, I've replaced all of Asus drivers with Intel's very latest and its a completely clean install of Windows. Despite this I am still seeing some stuttering and now the worst of the stuttering is diminished I am seeing input latency that is at the level of distracting.

Now there are two things in the trace below that stand out to me. Firstly the very high jumps of seconds or more, but also the frames that are just a little over 16.7 that are thus likely taking 2 frames to render. Its a perplexing problem and I really have no idea what is causing it, only that crossfire, sound on the Xonar and reducing the Windows appearance settings can improve it or make it worse. But I can't eliminate it, although without a sound card it feels wrong rather than actively stuttering all the time. So its not fixed, its just diminished.

Frame Time (ms) Diff from previous
1 0
2 13.814 13.814
3 30.476 16.662
4 63.824 33.348
5 431.493 367.669
6 498.758 67.265
7 582.086 83.328
8 597.99 15.904
9 614.608 16.618
10 631.685 17.077
... lots of 16.7 ish entries
56 1399.115 16.678
57 3484.289 2085.174
58 3501.051 16.762
.. < 16.7 entries
95 4151.332 16.687
96 4168.132 16.8
97 4184.79 16.658
98 4201.057 16.267
99 4218.074 17.017
100 4235.316 17.242
101 4252.01 16.694
...
112 4435.125 16.59
113 5386 950.875
114 5402.673 16.673
...
120 5502.748 16.667
121 5519.578 16.83
122 5536.379 16.801
123 5553.048 16.669
...

Further to this if I do the same test in Eclipse (which shows this problem up really well) then 23.9% of all frames are above 16.8ms (I chose this number become it becomes apparent that the timing count doesn't look accurate when you take frames in order, it has the appearance of microstutter if you use 16.7/16.67 but the oscillations is likely not actual stuttering but a variance in the calculation).
There are two distinct patterns - one where there are multiple frames one after the other in the 50-60ms and then other periods of microstutter of alternatively slower and faster frames normally 16.7 and then 33 ish. On top of this I also see the occasional jumps higher into the 200-600ms range.

 

[BrightCandle]

This could be something that AMD can fix. Do a bug report. I had an app that would CDT when Soft Shadows was turned on in Open GL. I reported it and 2 drivers later, it was fixed. Luckily the prior drivers didn't have this problem and I was able to roll back to them and wait.

At this point I am not really sure who to report it to. I would be surprised if it wasn't partly AMD's fault, it is after all graphics that are performing poorly. But it could also be the motherboard, the sound card or even a Windows update. Certainly before all the updates were applied to my new installation Windows was running well, but after they were done it felt fine until I installed AMD's Pre WHQL driver and then its felt rubbish since, regardless of whether that driver (or indeed any graphics driver) is on or not. So I think its AMD's new Pre driver that permanently causes problems, but I am far from certain.

I reported the increased latency to Asus for the sound card, that one I can clearly determine is wrong and I can confirm if they fix it or not. But you can't report bugs to Microsoft (not unless you pay them $100). I will try with an old 6950 to see if that eliminates it.

 

[Shamrock]

One thing no one has mentioned. If you have a quad core, you can do what's called "disabling parked cores". Win7 sets it to automatic. I disabled mine, and went from unplayable, to about 40 fps in Skyrim. It may not be GPU related at all.

Here is how to disable core parking:
http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.aspx?m=1861804

 

[exar333]

I'd love to see a video. I'm really curious what you consider "unbearable".

Pretty much anything if I spent $2000 on GPUs and displays only to get microstutter...

 

[Via]

Pretty much anything if I spent $2000 on GPUs and displays only to get microstutter...

That's the problem with "microstutter", though. Lot's of people complain, and there's never any video to help determine if the issue is MS or not.

He hated his 5970. I have a 5970 and have no issues at all. If I play games at too high of settings I Get lag, not microstutter. I've posted videos of my experiences.

 

[Chiropteran]

Pretty much anything if I spent $2000 on GPUs and displays only to get microstutter...

That is the thing though, whatever his alternative was, cheaper or not, it could only be performing *even worse*. The guy says he has been eyefinity gaming since 3 years ago- what hardware was he using then and how could it possibly perform better than a single 7970?

 

[exar333]

That is the thing though, whatever his alternative was, cheaper or not, it could only be performing *even worse*. The guy says he has been eyefinity gaming since 3 years ago- what hardware was he using then and how could it possibly perform better than a single 7970?

Very true. I would assume a 5xxx or 6xxx x-fire setup, but it would be helpful to know what the OP was using that was working well.

OP could try a full Win7 re-install too, just to give it a shot.

 

[BrightCandle]

Previously I had a 5970, and that microstuttered occasionally in certain games, but not in Windows. I always felt it wasn't really quick enough, I rarely got to play eyefinity without dropping the graphics such that the IQ was heavily impacted. It certainly did not perform as well as the 7970 x2 does in raw benchmarks and the IQ settings I can now use. Prior to that I had a 4870X2, so I am used to the crossfire mess as well as the potential for stuttering. So far the 7970's have been much worse for stutter than those prior solutions, but this I still think is something very different because its in Windows as well.

I hated the 5970 because for the last 8 months of its life the CAPs had been dragging behind for the dual core cards verses normal Crossfire. In quite a lot of the big games last year the crossfire support was lacking and that extra delay only made it worse especially when it most cases performance scaling was negative and often unplayable. I was having to turn crossfire off using tools like RadeonPro and then it didn't perform all that well. The 5970 was dependent on crossfire to get decent performance, otherwise it was about as good as a single 5850.

I have the rest of the watercooling setup in now so I am currently rebuilding the machine and I'll reinstall from scratch again. When I do so I'll only install the Jan 21st drivers and see if that solves the problem. I may also try increasing the 2D clocks of the graphics card to see if that improves the input lag. Plenty more to try and since I now have a test that shows the stuttering in numbers I can at least work out when I have fixed it.

PS - I have tried disabling core parking and ULPS, neither impacted this problem but it did make the stuttering on zoom in disappear in Arma 2 (Core parking that is). I'll definitely be disabling core parking again once the machine is up and running.