8GB VRAM not enough (and 10 / 12)

[BFG10K]

8GB

• Dying Light 2, Battlefield 2042, Avatar Frontiers of Pandora, Call of Duty Modern Warfare 3, Starfield, Forza Horizon 5, Horizon Forbidden West, Alan Wake 2, The Last of Us, Tekken 8, FC 24, Detroit Become Human, Death Stranding, Alone in The Dark, Overwatch 2
  3060 12GB higher 1% low than 4060 8GB https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIfz57wmywg
• Cyberpunk 2077, Diablo 4, Hogwarts Legacy, Horizon Zero Dawn, Microsoft Flight Sim 2020, Witcher 3, Watch Dogs Legion skip to 4K + DLSS for each game https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPiaWWd0xGc
• Ratchet & Clank, Plague Tale Requiem, Last Of Us, Jedi Survivor, Far Cry 6, Hogwarts Legacy, Forza Horizon 5, Cyberpunk 2077 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wr3MckDxMfE&pp=ygUTMTZnYiB2cyA4Z2IgNDA2MCB0aQ==
• Far Cry 6, Godfall, Hogwarts Legacy, Forza Horizon 5, Forspoken, Doom Eternal, Watchdogs Legion https://youtu.be/fJc--C01P90?t=268
• Last Of Us, Resident Evil 4, Callisto Protocol, Plague Tale Requiem, Halo Infinite, Forspoken https://youtu.be/2_Y3E631ro8?t=429
• Last Of Us, Hogwarts Legacy, Resident Evil 4, Forspoken, Plague Tale Requiem, Callisto Protocol https://youtu.be/Rh7kFgHe21k?t=288
• Hogwarts Legacy, Last Of Us, Spider Man Remastered, Doom Eternal, Forza Horizon 5 https://youtu.be/R943CbDTq_s?t=1473
• Horizon Forbidden West 4060 has issues @ 1080p + DLSS unless you switch off frame generation and reduce settings to high https://youtu.be/3AyKvI23VGw?t=233
• Horizon Forbidden West 3070 requires reducing textures 2 notches https://youtu.be/xTwEGy6HHKo?t=351
• Deathloop https://youtu.be/lu_XHyO-6zY?t=918
• Ghost Recon Breakpoint https://youtu.be/iUGppQVpXzU?t=529
• Resident Evil 2 https://youtu.be/Aa-gsgRjMII?t=796
• Talos Principle 2 https://youtu.be/K6FATQAuEwI?t=337
• Spider Man Remastered https://youtu.be/vRVR_plVSlc?t=1060
• Witcher 3 https://youtu.be/vRVR_plVSlc?t=1240

Horizon Forbidden West 3060 is faster than the 2080 Super despite the former usually competing with the 2070. Also 3060 has a better 1% low than 4060 and 4060Ti 8GB.

Spoiler

Resident Evil Village 3060TI/3070 tanks at 4K and is slower than the 3060/6700XT when ray tracing:

Spoiler

Company Of Heroes 3060 has a higher minimum than the 3070TI:

Spoiler

10GB / 12GB

• Plague Tale Requiem 3080 10GB tanks if you enable ray tracing, would be fast enough if it had more VRAM because if you stop moving, the framerate stabilizes to >60FPS https://youtu.be/7zjrMww3fAc?t=496
• Hogwarts Legacy 4K + RT, 4060Ti 16GB is faster than 4070 12GB https://youtu.be/X-h_R488Mq8?t=191

Reasons why still shipping 8GB since 2014 isn't NV's fault.

Spoiler

1. It's the player's fault.
2. It's the reviewer's fault.
3. It's the developer's fault.
4. It's AMD's fault.
5. It's the game's fault.
6. It's the driver's fault.
7. It's a system configuration issue.
8. Wrong settings were tested.
9. Wrong area was tested.
10. Wrong games were tested.
11. 4K is irrelevant.
12. Texture quality is irrelevant as long as it matches a console's.
13. Detail levels are irrelevant as long as they match a console's.
14. There's no reason a game should use more than 8GB, because a random forum user said so.
15. It's completely acceptable for the more expensive 3070/3070TI/3080 to turn down settings while the cheaper 3060/6700XT has no issue.
16. It's an anomaly.
17. It's a console port.
18. It's a conspiracy against NV.
19. 8GB cards aren't meant for 4K / 1440p / 1080p / 720p gaming.
20. It's completely acceptable to disable ray tracing on NV while AMD has no issue.
21. Polls, hardware market share, and game title count are evidence 8GB is enough, but are totally ignored when they don't suit the ray tracing agenda.

According to some people here, 8GB is neeeevaaaaah NV's fault and objective evidence "doesn't count" because of reasons(tm). If you have others please let me know and I'll add them to the list. Cheers!

 

[Mopetar]

The beatings postings will continue until morale improves.

 

[maddie]

How am I moving the goalpoasts? I study hardware as it was meant to be used, that is not with stupid settings or resolutions. I showed how I can play a game on a 4070ti and how I can resume on a 3060ti. What's wrong with it?

That bolded part is the essence of the conflict.

In my opinion, an EXTREMELY arrogant statement.

 

[psolord]

9-10 fps gaming. On Volcano area also massive drops even in gameplay

That's an interesting find. You made me look.

My disputants, already know what I will say. Personally, I wouldn't use an 8GB card for anything above 1080p. Or at least not with maxed settings. It's not a matter of vram alone, it's mostly a matter of gpu power. I know we are talking about a 3070 (for which I don't really care about), of which the price was too extreme indeed and would warrant a more stable 1440p experience down the line. I never disputed that specifically, I only say that I got the 3060ti instead. Plenty good for the money.

Speaking of the 3060ti, which belongs in the same family and since you got me curious, within the vram boundaries of this thread, I did the following test, which is in the Landfall area (start of the game really)

(non monetized channel-just for fun)

What this is, is the same 6min run, with 4 different settings.
0:01 high settings with dlaa (native resolution)
6:02 high settings with dlss balanced
11:39 high settings(-) with dlss balanced
17:41 medium settings maxed textures dlss quality

The first part, is essentially what the user above did. Crank everything to over9000 and be done with it. It also has some 10fps drops. For this first test, the game runs at 30-40fps, which is by definition ridiculous for PC standards. It's problematic from the get go. When I see that in a game, my brain tells me that it's fine tuning time and not crank everything over9000 time.

The problem gets X3 improved, if you enable dlss balanced which is the second test. Performance also goes way up, where it is now a mostly 60fps experience (capped).

It gets even more improved if you take down two settings, which is the third test.

And it gets even better, if you use the medium preset, with maxed textures and even higher dlss setting, which is the 4th test.

All that is put on quad side by side windows, with youtube multiplier.

Mix of 4 videos from youtube : Hellblade 2(landfall), 3060ti, 2560X1440, high dlaa vs high dlss, vs high(-) dlss vs medium+ dlss

Mix of 4 videos from youtube, by psolord : Hellblade 2(landfall), 3060ti, 2560X1440, high dlaa vs high dlss, vs high(-) dlss vs medium+ dlss

www.youtubemultiplier.com

I know the windows are small, but I want everyone to see the graphical differences between them, which are very very small. What is largely different however, is the performance.

More on that, here are two screenshots, of the game at 1440p DLAA maxed and 1440 DLSS Balanced.





On the top right it's the bus usage. With DLAA Native, it's obvious that the bus is used much more, due to vram round trips I will give you that. So what? The game would be unplayable, even if both the 3060ti and 3070, had 128GBs of vram. Look what happens when you enable DLSS Balanced. Performance goes up +117%. VRAM drops by 500MB. The game gets almost playable, almost. It needs further reduction for the 3060ti, is shown in the above vid.

 

[psolord]

That bolded part is the essence of the conflict.

In my opinion, an EXTREMELY arrogant statement.

Why is it arrogant? Each card has a specific target usage. You can't just go cranking everything over9000 and to hell with it. There are cards from 200$ to 1600$. Why do you expect to use all in between cards, every way you see fit?

 

[psolord]

This is the point of the thread.

The 3070/ti is not the point of this thread. If they were, it should be mentioned on the title and I would have said nothing.

8GB parts have limited value due to compromises users need to make with them.

You are generalizing and putting all 8GB cards in the same basket. They are not the same. The GTX 1070 and RTX 3060ti have nothing in common.

If you want to argue that in some situations, the strong 8GB cards, will lose some performance, due to memory roundtrips, you have to take into account what the real performance would be, if it had more vram.

You can study my findings in Hellblade II above. Even the 3060ti is losing some processing power at 1440p maxed. It doesn't matter man. It would be unplayable anyway. Same goes for the 3070/ti. They are not THAT much more powerful. However there are easy solutions, settings fine tuning, that will make ALL problems go away, yet people tend to ignore them. You are paying for nvidia features (dlss) and then you don't use it and complain about vram. What is up with that?

The 3060 12GB MSRP was fine for its performance level so the price/perf/lifespan expectations were in line.

It's not fine though. It has a framebuffer that will be useless for 95% of the time. I am telling you, I have a 12GB card (4070ti) that is more than twice as fast and still has gpu power problems mostly. How is the 3060 going to take advantage of these 12GBs?

The 3070Ti/3070/4060Ti 8GB all had the wrong price/perf/lifespan expectations because the 8GB VRAM buffer requires the user make compromises sooner than they should / larger compromises than they should given the price that those products retailed at and how old they are.

I have no interest defending the 3070/ti, as I have said many times. I didn't buy them, because I also saw the wrongness in their pricing. The 4060ti 8GB could be a little better price wise, I also have agreed on that. It is however, an engineering marvel, all things considered. This is what Nvidia is selling.

The 3060Ti is probably on the cusp of acceptable at its MSRP (shame mining screwed that up) because of its age and the 4060 is probably similar.

Yes and this is the card I mostly care about.

The 3060 12GB should not be a better GPU than the 3060TI/3070/3070Ti/4060Ti 8GB in any scenario, those 4 cards are higher tier and more expensive parts, that the 3060 12GB can offer higher IQ at playable frame rates in any title is a failure of those higher tier cards and illustrates the point being made, which is not that the 3060 12GB is a better part in general than those higher tier parts, just that it is less compromised at its MSRP than those higher tier parts are at their MSRPs.

I vastly disagree. The 3060 is OK for its price, sure, but it's exactly where it should be. It gets better only in unplayable scenarios to begin with. In the above Hellblade II Landfall test, it probably would be able to sustain 20fps instead of 10fps in these extreme framedrops. So what? These are not useful scenarios. In gamegpu tests, it is already unplayable even at 1080p. My evaluation stops there. All other data is useless.

See my Hellblade II multitest above. The 3060 would also have to do, way more fine tuning, than the 3060ti has to do. It's easy to understand. See the power draw numbers per frame. Even at medium+max textures, which would be the scenario the 3060 would be used, the power draw of the 3060ti ranges, from 95W to maxed 220W. It hovers at maxed power half of the time really. It's very easy to understand that the 3060 could never have this kind of output.

 

[Timorous]

You are generalizing and putting all 8GB cards in the same basket.

No. You just can't see past your view point.

A 1070 was good value. It has had a great life span and the MSRP was balanced with it's performance level. The 3060Ti less so.

New 8GB cards are value limited because they have performance anomalies. Those anomalies will increase in frequency as they age. This is why we say a new 8GB card should be limited to $250 or less. With that in mind the compute performance should also be balanced for that price point.

It's not fine though. It has a framebuffer that will be useless for 95% of the time. I am telling you, I have a 12GB card (4070ti) that is more than twice as fast and still has gpu power problems mostly. How is the 3060 going to take advantage of these 12GB

It is perfectly fine. Price/performance/longevity are all fine. It may not need the 12gb often but it does come in handy now and again and that will be more common in the future. It was a great pick for a budget gamer who wanted to keep the card a long time. Sure it won't play at max settings but it strikes a good balance of IQ and won't suffer the same performance anomalies 8GB cards do at the same IQ level.

As for your 4070Ti, if it struggles have you tried using correct settings? It can fix all problems.

The 3060 is OK for its price, sure, but it's exactly where it should be.

And the issue is that the more expensive 8GB cards are not where they should be. They have performance anomalies that should be priced in and they are not with the 3070Ti being most egregious on this front.

The 3060 would also have to do, way more fine tuning, than the 3060ti has to do

Given the price difference and the same generation that is the expectation, that some games have the 3060 perform better than the Ti at playable for the 3060 settings is not at all the expectation. The 3060 should perform better in exactly 0 games.

 

[SolidQ]

wouldn't use an 8GB card for anything above 1080p.

look also #2371 post. Real gameplay. Volcano area

 

[psolord]

No. You just can't see past your view point.

My viewpoint is smoothness, always. For which, up to this point, gpu power is far more important.

A 1070 was good value. It has had a great life span and the MSRP was balanced with it's performance level. The 3060Ti less so.

They only had 70$ difference and are 4 years apart. I'd say the 3060ti is exactly where the 1070 was. Also the 3060ti has some VERY important features the 1070 does not. It's not just a matter of doubled gpu power. The 3060ti has a very solid and very valuable upscaler, which becomes ever so important, not due to vram, but due to gpu power. Whenever the 1070 will be forced to use a software upscaler, it has already lost the game. I mean I see it all the time, since I have both.

New 8GB cards are value limited because they have performance anomalies. Those anomalies will increase in frequency as they age. This is why we say a new 8GB card should be limited to $250 or less. With that in mind the compute performance should also be balanced for that price point.

They are value limited only in the eyes of the ignorants and meme seeking users, who do not really care about how their game looks and feels at correct settings, rather they try to find where an 8GB card got its framebuffer spilled over, with obscene settings, so they can point their fingers and have some meme fun. There is almost zero real problem.

I'd like the 4090 to be free. Ain't gonna happen. When you see the 4060ti being twice as fast compared to a rx6600 in many occasions and the rx6600 is at 200, you can't expect the 4060ti to be 250. That would mean the 6600 should be 125 and the 6500 at 99 and the 6400 at 70$. Sure I'm fine with that. Go tell it to AMD and Nvidia.

It is perfectly fine. Price/performance/longevity are all fine. It may not need the 12gb often but it does come in handy now and again and that will be more common in the future.

My friend what future? What future? We are in the here and now and the 3060 is already having serious problems, at 1080p.

Go to gamegpu, gather ALL 2024 benchmarks and see how perfectly fine it is and how many times it beats its bigger brothers.

I mean see here, gamegpu has also uploaded DLSS results of Hellblade II.



One click of the mouse, boom, the 3060ti is nearing 60. The 3060 is below 50. This is a range of numbers, which is very very important. Being almost playable with being completely unplayable, at mere 1080p, is a huge difference. Much bigger than the 70$ of their MSRP. Whoever got a 3060 instead of a ti, is already facing ugly surprises. No need to wait for the "future".

As for your 4070Ti, if it struggles have you tried using correct settings? It can fix all problems.

I do. Always.

 

[VirtualLarry]

That would mean the 6600 should be 125

Why the hell isn't it, by now?

 

[GodisanAtheist]

Why the hell isn't it, by now?

- Cause everyone is trying to juice their profits as much as possible before the American consumer runs out of money and credit.

 

[SolidQ]

7900XTX vs 4090
9-12gb VRAM
Perfomance from both cards looks same

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Atomic Heart finally adds ray tracing and it looks to be a bit of a mess in beta. What is noteworthy is it states you need at least 12GB of VRAM for it to work properly.

https://wccftech.com/atomic-heart-gets-ray-tracing-16-months-after-launch/

 

[igor_kavinski]

I see a big opportunity here for some PC repair company to start a huge international operation modding existing powerful 8GB cards with double capacity VRAM chips. Could be profitable for them and the card owners and it would prevent these cards from getting stripped for parts/precious metals or becoming environmental waste due to forced early retirement.

 

[SolidQ]

What is noteworthy is it states you need at least 12GB of VRAM for it to work properly.

Seems in full hd is ok.
GGpu test

Spoiler

 

[blckgrffn]

Seems in full hd is ok.
GGpu test

Spoiler

I'll save @DAPUNISHER the typing.

Bar graphs don't show it working properly. They show measured frames.

If the dev states 12GB is what its going to take to work without issues/errors, I'll believe them.

 

[maddie]

I'll save @DAPUNISHER the typing.

Bar graphs don't show it working properly. They show measured frames.

If the dev states 12GB is what its going to take to work without issues/errors, I'll believe them.

Remember when frame time consistency was all the rage? Nvidia went overboard in seeding the community with narratives and provided software to expose the failings of AMD vs Nvidia. They were correct.

I can only conclude that AMD's marketing dept is incompetent, they should be making noise about this Vram difference and how it affects actual gameplay vs raw graphs. The same thing Nvidia did for microstutters & frame pacing.

 

[GodisanAtheist]

Shockingly competent showing from AMD for an Nvidia sponsored game unless, bar graphs being bar graphs, the only reason AMD is as competitive as they are is because the RT isn't being rendered correctly.

 

[blckgrffn]

Remember when frame time consistency was all the rage? Nvidia went overboard in seeding the community with narratives and provided software to expose the failings of AMD vs Nvidia. They were correct.

I can only conclude that AMD's marketing dept is incompetent, they should be making noise about this Vram difference and how it affects actual gameplay vs raw graphs. The same thing Nvidia did for microstutters & frame pacing.

Ditched my Crossfire 7950's for a 290X largely due to this data and it really reinforced that my feelings that while my FPS was up, the games played like butt.

Sounds familiar? lol.

*edit, first sold a 7950 and got a deal on a 290X later, but point being it changed how I perceived things*

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Rumor has it there will be an 8GB 50 series. It'll probably be overpriced again and heavily outsell Intel and AMD competition. SSDD.

 

[Mopetar]

Rumor has it there will be an 8GB 50 series. It'll probably be overpriced again and heavily outsell Intel and AMD competition. SSDD.

View attachment 101037

Well we all know one person who insists that's plenty and will have no qualms buying one.

Battlemage is looking decent enough that Intel could gobble up a lot of the low end of the market by just offering reasonable prices.

Even though AMD will price below Nvidia, they won't do so by more than they have to, which is still much higher than many would like.

 

[SolidQ]

It'll probably be overpriced again and heavily outsell Intel and AMD competition

it's usually Valorant, dota, CS2 etc users

Even though AMD will price below Nvidia, they won't do so by more than they have to, which is still much higher than many would like.

They need push OEM, for good sells

 

[DAPUNISHER]

it's usually Valorant, dota, CS2 etc users

Those all run great at competitive settings on a potato if the CPU has the grunt. Are gamers really buying the low end RTX cards to play those titles? If so, that's the Fry "shut up and take my money!"

I would hope they at least buy them to leverage DLSS and AV1 for streaming and encoding.

 

[SolidQ]

UE5 game... Optimization is "Super"

I saw on stream, same FPS on 4090 in 1440P

Those all run great at competitive settings on a potato if the CPU has the grunt

Yeah great, but maybe some people want 240-480 fps.

least buy them to leverage DLSS and AV1 for streaming and encoding.

Yeah, streamers can buy it, also new gen can give some new functions

for this price don't understand this card, while 6600 is cheaper.

ASRock launches Radeon RX 6500XT with 8GB memory - VideoCardz.com

ASRock intros RX 6500XT 8GB Phantom Gaming Entry-level RDNA2 GPU with 8GB VRAM. The Radeon RX 6500XT, released in January 2022, features the Navi 24 GPU, which has one of the least attractive specs in the RDNA2 lineup. Despite its relatively low performance, some companies continue to support...

videocardz.com

 

[psolord]

UE5 game... Optimization is "Super"

I am telling everyone for a long time now, what is going to happen, with vram/gpu power ratios, especially on UE5. They don't listen man.

They all collectively agree that I have a thick skull and I don't understand how important vram is. Well, here we are. 3060 12GB 17fps 1080p in this one. The fastest 12GB card is 3 times faster btw. The fastest 8GB is 65% faster. Vram ain't gonna save you mates.

 

[psolord]

Seems in full hd is ok.
GGpu test

Spoiler

The 3060 12GB is surely saved by its vram in this one too...NOT.

The 3060ti is a healthy 31% faster, which is a proper performance delta. They are both unplayable anyway, so there is only academic interest in this one.

I have Atomic Heart of course, if anyone wants to see, I can test, no prob.

You should also post the rest of the latest tests of gamegpu and show everyone how vram matters. Show Bodycam, Test Drive Unlimited, Soulmask, F1 2024. Come on. Show it. If I do, I will be accused of uploading a "splurge" of screenshots again. I mean, I have seen them, but I try to not be petty and rub it on everyone's face!

Eeeew, psolord is uploading graphs again, MMMOOOOMM!