Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: Trevelyan
One thing I noticed in a lot of the documentaries is using the clip where Bush is informed of 9/11 when he's inside the elementary school. They certainly read a lot into his reaction. I think it just hurts their argument when they stretch things like that and try to make some kind of factual claim out of it, like he wasn't surprised enough so he knew about it beforehand. Give me a break, that's not evidence, that's conjecture.
It's not his initial reaction. It's the 7+ minutes he sat on his ass doing NOTHING. It's the subsequent photo op he staged while America was under attack.
What exactly should he have done?
Put on his red suit and cape and flown up to DC and saved it from the planes?:roll:
The "he did nothing" argument is about the weakest argument out there, there was not ONE thing he could have done to alter the events as they happened. We know for a FACT that the jets got on scene too late so it is not like he could have given a shot down order, although apparently one was given. Once the planes were in air there was not one thing President Bush could have done to stop the events of 9-11 from happening.
Issue orders for fighter jets to scramble and shoot down hijacked planes, for starters. The delay in issuing the orders is what caused the delay in the fighters taking off. Pretty simple logic.
Got a problem with that?
Let's address your "Issue orders for fighter jets to scramble and shoot down hijacked planes, for starters" comment.
Ok conjur, lets look at the timeline:
The amount of time between when the military is told about a plane and when that plane crashed:
American 11 WTC, 9 minutes
United 175 WTC, learned about it after it had crashed
American 77 Pentagon, 3 mintues
United 93, never told
So... no mater what Bush would have or could have done, there was no action he could have taken that would have changed the course of events.
Here is the timeline laid out for you based on the 9-11 report and Complete 911 Timeline manged by Paul Thompson, one of the sources of the Press for Truth movie/DVD.
Military Notification and Response. Boston Center did not follow the protocol in seeking military assistance through the prescribed chain of command. In addition to notifications within the FAA, Boston Center took the initiative, at 8:34, to contact the military through the FAA's Cape Cod facility. The center also tried to contact a former alert site in Atlantic City, unaware it had been phased out. At 8:37:52, Boston Center reached NEADS. This was the first notification received by the military-at any level-that American 11 had been hijacked
F-15 fighters were scrambled at 8:46 from Otis Air Force Base. But NEADS did not know where to send the alert fighter aircraft, and the officer directing the fighters pressed for more information: "I don't know where I'm scrambling these guys to. I need a direction, a destination." Because the hijackers had turned off the plane's transponder, NEADS personnel spent the next minutes searching their radar scopes for the primary radar return. American 11 struck the North Tower at 8:46. Shortly after 8:50, while NEADS personnel were still trying to locate the flight, word reached them that a plane had hit the World Trade Center.
http://www.9-11commission.gov/report/911Report_Ch1.htm
So... the first trade center was hit at about the same time the F-15 went into the air.
Now we know from Bush's timeline that the President does not even learn of the WTC crash untill 8:55 AM.
So... the planes had already been scrambled BEFORE Bush even knew of the towers being hit, before anyone outside the FAA and NEADS knew about the hijacking. Remember, nobody expected the planes to aim at the towers, they thought they were going to Cuba or something like that.
Now the second plane hits the 2nd tower at 9:03 AM. It is only then that we know for sure that we are being attacked.
Military Notification and Response. The first indication that the NORAD air defenders had of the second hijacked aircraft, United 175, came in a phone call from New York Center to NEADS at 9:03.The notice came at about the time the plane was hitting the South Tower.134 "
By 9:08, the mission crew commander at NEADS learned of the second explosion at the World Trade Center and decided against holding the fighters in military airspace away from Manhattan:
Mission Crew Commander, NEADS: This is what I foresee that we probably need to do. We need to talk to FAA. We need to tell 'em if this stuff is gonna keep on going, we need to take those fighters, put 'em over Manhattan. That's best thing, that's the best play right now. So coordinate with the FAA. Tell 'em if there's more out there, which we don't know, let's get 'em over Manhattan. At least we got some kind of play.135
The FAA cleared the airspace. Radar data show that at 9:13, when the Otis fighters were about 115 miles away from the city, the fighters exited their holding pattern and set a course direct for Manhattan. They arrived at 9:25 and established a combat air patrol (CAP) over the city.
So to recap for you... the fighter jets that were scrambled BEFORE Bush or anyone else in the entire country knew of the hijacking, besides a few FAA and Norad people, did not arrive over New York until 9:25am, to late to do anything.
There is NOT ONE thing Bush could have done to stop the attacks from happening in New York. The second plane hit the tower before the military even knew of it.
Now on to the Pentagon:
At 9:21, NEADS received a report from the FAA:
FAA: Military, Boston Center. I just had a report that American 11 is still in the air, and it's on its way towards-heading towards Washington.
Mission Crew Commander, NEADS: Okay, uh, American Airlines is still airborne. Eleven, the first guy, he's heading towards Washington. Okay? I think we need to scramble Langley right now. And I'm gonna take the fighters from Otis, try to chase this guy down if I can find him.149
After consulting with NEADS command, the crew commander issued the order at 9:23:"Okay . . . scramble Langley. Head them towards the Washington area.. . . if they're there then we'll run on them.. . .These guys are smart." That order was processed and transmitted to Langley Air Force Base at 9:24. Radar data show the Langley fighters airborne at 9:30. NEADS decided to keep the Otis fighters over New York. The heading of the Langley fighters was adjusted to send them to the Baltimore area. The mission crew commander explained to us that the purpose was to position the Langley fighters between the reported southbound American 11 and the nation's capital.
The problem is that American 11 had already crashed into the WTC and the Langely planes were heading on a wild goose chase.
Again, we know from the timeline that the Pentagon was hit at 9:37am, 7 minutes after the planes left Langley, in southern Va.
" The time was 9:38.The Pentagon had been struck by American 77 at 9:37:46.The Langley fighters were about 150 miles away."
So if Bush had gotten up and walked out of the classroom at 9:06am when he hears of the second crash and called the military and said "scramble jets and shot down hijacked planes the military would have said "what hijacked planes, we know of no hijacked planes."
At the suggestion of the Boston Center's military liaison, NEADS contacted the FAA's Washington Center to ask about American 11. In the course of the conversation, a Washington Center manager informed NEADS: "We're looking-we also lost American 77."The time was 9:34.151 This was the first notice to the military that American 77 was missing, and it had come by chance.
So NEADS only learned about the plane that hits the Pentagon 3 minutes before it hit the Pentagon.
Finally, flight 93 the last plane in the air:
Despite the discussions about military assistance, no one from FAA headquarters requested military assistance regarding United 93. Nor did any manager at FAA headquarters pass any of the information it had about United 93 to the military.
So the military never learned about United 93.
Check out the timelines yourself:
This first site has a link to 9/11 Press for the Truth on it and sells the DVD, I'd call it a good source based on the thread title.
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/time...complete_911_timeline&day_of_9/11=bush
http://www.9-11commission.gov/report/911Report_Ch1.htm