Wow. Anyone else wanna take this one? No? Okay, okay. Here are the Cliffs:Originally posted by: GreatBarracuda
Precisely my point. Once you have human beings intervening in the composition of a work, there are bound to be errors and axioms corrupted by personal opinions and inclinations. The Qur'an on the other hand is a compilation of the words of God *uttered* by the prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h). It was preserved on stone tablets, animal hides, leaves ... whatever was readily available to the prophet's companions, most of whom memorized the entire Qur'an. Hence there was absolutely no chance of error when the various pieces were assembled after the passing of the prophet.
One may not believe in the Qur'an being divinely inspired, but one cannot deny the fact that the Qur'an read today by Muslims is the EXACT same book the prophet left among his companions and that means something. This is not to mention the literary calibre of the book.
Originally posted by: kinev
Wow. Anyone else wanna take this one? No? Okay, okay. Here are the Cliffs:
1.All books are written by man, so they must contain errors.
2.The Bible was written by man, so it must contain errors.
3.Well......the Qur'an doesn't count. Yeah, it's a book. Well....yeah, it was written by man. BUT.......BUT, mind you, it was perfectly and infallibly recorded on the most reliable medium for dictation known to man..........leaves.
Originally posted by: kinev
Um, GreatBarracuda, I think you're barking up the wrong tree trying to convert conjur to Islam. I'm expecting a somewhat humerous response from him. Also, could you point out what verses in that list of yours contradict what. And, if you don't mind, don't just copy and paste from your islam-info site stuff either. We can all use the internet. We are all familiar with google. If I want islam-info's opinion, I can go there myself. We can play cut and paste all day without getting anything done.
In the sense of seriousness, can I ask you a couple questions?
1.What is required of a Muslim to spend eternity with God when he/she dies?
2.What is that (p.b.u.h) you put after the names of prophets? Just curious.
Originally posted by: TBone48
Man this could go on for, like, ANOTHER 2,000 years!
Originally posted by: GreatBarracuda
Originally posted by: kinev
Wow. Anyone else wanna take this one? No? Okay, okay. Here are the Cliffs:
1.All books are written by man, so they must contain errors.
2.The Bible was written by man, so it must contain errors.
3.Well......the Qur'an doesn't count. Yeah, it's a book. Well....yeah, it was written by man. BUT.......BUT, mind you, it was perfectly and infallibly recorded on the most reliable medium for dictation known to man..........leaves.
A Muslim is lucky in the sense that he loves and respects Jesus (peace be upon him) and would never be disrespectful when speaking about him.
As I stated earlier, the Qur'an was *memorized* by prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h) and hiss companions right after portions of it were revealed to him, often in their presence. If you know anything about the Arabic language, you would know that it is a very unique language in that works written in the language lend themsleves easily to memorization. Such was also the culture of Arabia at the time of prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h). The ability to recite lengthy passages of poetry and other literary works from memory and with eloquence is something the Arabs pride themselves over. Even today, if you go to the middle east, a Bedouin would feel proud to read out to you from memory his lineage all the way to prophet Abraham! (whether it is accurate or not).
In Muslim armies, entire battalions would have the Qur'an memorized. Such is the beauty of the language.
Originally posted by: GreatBarracuda
Originally posted by: aplefka
It seems this thread was solely created for the OP to pass off his beliefs as superior.
It's funny, I can see in his latest post he mentions the Qur'an.
I only mentioned Qur'an or Islam when it was first brought up by others.
Originally posted by: aplefka
Funny how the bible predates the Qur'an by how many hundred years?
About 600 years. And this proves what? Has it occurred to you that a lot of distortions could happen to a text in 600 years?
Edit: My study of the Bible is very limited. I am continuing to learn more as time goes on. Can you say the same about the Qur'an? Have you actually considered it with an open mind?
Originally posted by: Stojakapimp
GreatBarracuda, since it seems that you are interested in converting to Christianity, you can send me a PM and I'd be happy to give you information on the steps you would need to take to do so. I'm happy hear about you interest in Christianity and I look forward to many more great questions!
Originally posted by: aplefka
Originally posted by: Stojakapimp
GreatBarracuda, since it seems that you are interested in converting to Christianity, you can send me a PM and I'd be happy to give you information on the steps you would need to take to do so. I'm happy hear about you interest in Christianity and I look forward to many more great questions!
Wow, you sound like a douche on tv advertising his religion. Give me a break, have you looked at some of the stuff this guy has written? It seems like this thread was created simply to get involved in mini flame-wars. If he PMd you, post in this thread for us all to know.
Edit: Errr, I didn't realize that it was you Joe. Guess you could always just tell me on AIM if he PMs you. I apologize for that first line. Now don't give us a bad name!
Originally posted by: Stojakapimp
Originally posted by: aplefka
Originally posted by: Stojakapimp
GreatBarracuda, since it seems that you are interested in converting to Christianity, you can send me a PM and I'd be happy to give you information on the steps you would need to take to do so. I'm happy hear about you interest in Christianity and I look forward to many more great questions!
Wow, you sound like a douche on tv advertising his religion. Give me a break, have you looked at some of the stuff this guy has written? It seems like this thread was created simply to get involved in mini flame-wars. If he PMd you, post in this thread for us all to know.
Edit: Errr, I didn't realize that it was you Joe. Guess you could always just tell me on AIM if he PMs you. I apologize for that first line. Now don't give us a bad name!
Somebody's sarcasm meter is broke. And by somebody I mean you. And by you I mean Aplefka. And by Aplefka I mean Alex Plefka.
Uh, yes there can.Originally posted by: kinev
Ummmm, when Jesus is using the term "Father" he means God. There really can't be any denying that.Originally posted by: conjur
That's where the problem lies. The term "Father" doesn't mean God. Father is a titular name for a Jewish high priest. Jesus, of the royal line, was not of the priestly line. Jesus was working to break down that barrier and become both king *and* priest. Otherwise, wouldn't he have used the term God or Yahweh?
The Bible may have been divinely inspired but was written by men using language appropriate to their society in their time. Their terminology *must* be taken into account when reading the Bible lest you distort its meaning.
Go right ahead. Jesus never indicated he was divine.Whether you believe that Jesus was God or if there is a God, it is plainly obvious that the Bible states that Jesus is the Son of God. So, when Jesus says Father, he is referring to God the Father. I can look into the original translation, but that will take some time.
Uh...drop the Jerry Fallwell impersonation. It's not very becoming.Also, Jesus never had the intention of becoming a king and priest 2000 years ago. Jesus is God. He knew he was going to Earth to live, suffer, and die for us. Jesus won't be recognized as a King on Earth until His new kingdom is set up on Earth.
It would remove a lot of the ignorance and superstition that's applied to Jesus and that is rampant in modern Christianity.I agree that studying the time period and circumstances that the Bible was written in helps one to understand some topics more thouroughly. I don't, however, think that an extensive knowledge of Jewish and Roman traditions/languages is required for an average person.
I am not relying upon the Internet at all in my current reading. It's all books from well-recognized historians and biblical scholars. I'll follow a similar approach when I begin reading about the history of Islam.Originally posted by: GreatBarracuda
Originally posted by: conjur
Thanks for the link. To any sentient person, it's obvious Jesus was not divine. That didn't come about until, I believe, the Council of Nicea.
I'm currently in the middle of a bunch of books on the review of the Old Testament and of the New Testament and how they were written and formed based upon the social/economic/political situations of the men writing the works. I've not gotten into any works of scholarly critiquing of the Qu'ran but I will once I finish these. Although, I'm quite certiain that as much has been found about the writing of the Qu'ran as was about the Old and the New Testaments.
And, btw, monotheism arose from the Egyptians (of which Moses was likely one.)
You're welcome. Now that you are actually considering religion with a focus and a serious attitude, I must say that you have to be careful. No doubt the internet is a great source of information, but some of that information is not beneficial and in fact quite detrimental to the purpose at hand. I think you know exactly what that means and what I am trying to say.
There is a lot of misinformation about Islam and the Qur'an out there on the internet. Am I afraid that you will fall into the wrong camp? No. I think you are intelligent enough to discover the truth for yourself. But there is something that is very important for me to say here. There are people out there who truly seek to sow the seeds of hatred about religion (Islam or Christianity) and systematically mislead people and will do anything to achieve their purpose. Case in point: Craig Winn. There are many others as well who wish to do the same, like Dr. Anis Shorrosh, Daniel Pipes etc.
Why would I even mention these names if they can lead you to form the wrong ideas about Islam if you choose to follow up on them? Because if you are searching for the truth with an open mind, God will guide you to it. Truth needs no advocates on its behalf. That is the Islamic belief. But the human being is weak and such hate-filled ideas the above-mentioned individuals propagate do affect the mind. The same can be said of the "Muslim" clerics who instill hatred in the hearts of innocent youngsters against Christianity at madrasahs in some Islamic countries, although the threat has been blown out of proportion in my opinion.
That is why I recommend you start with the traditional works on Islam. Not just Muslim scholars, non-muslims as well. Frankly, this is what I would recommend to Muslims as well if they seek to gain knowledge of Christianity. The classical works are "classical" for a reason. You are most welcome should you need any information regarding this. A few good places to start:
W. Montgomery Watt, Islam and Christianity Today
John L. Esposito, ISLAM, The Straight Path
G.B. Shaw, The Genuine Islam
De Lacy O'Leary, Islam at the Crossroads
Then read the Qur'an along with the biography of the prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h). The most acclaimed work on this topic in English is Muhammad : His Life Based on the Earliest Sources by Martin Lings. One cannot and I repeat cannot read the Qur'an without keeping the life of the prophet in perspective. You see, the Qur'an is unique in this respect. It was revealed to Muhammad (p.b.u.h) over a period of 23 years. Many passages in the Qur'an are God's responses/clarifications to issues/controversies/genuine questions that were raised in the lifetime of the prophet after he claimed prophethood. In this regard, it is very different from the Torah, for instance, as it was given to Moses (p.b.u.h.) completely and literally "etched in stone". A study of the Qur'an without any background of the life of the prophet is ineffectual.
I leave you with a few quotes from the above-mentioned works.
"I have always held the religion of Muhammad in high estimation because of its wonderful vitality. It is the only religion which appears to me to possess that assimilating capacity to the changing phase of existence which can make itself appeal to every age. I have studied him the wonderful man and in my opinion far from being an Antichrist, he must be called the Saviour of Humanity. I believe that if a man like him were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world, he would succeed in solving its problems in a way that would bring it the much needed peace and happiness: I have prophesied about the faith of Muhammad that it would be acceptable to the Europe of tomorrow as it is beginning to be acceptable to the Europe of today."
G.B. Shaw, The Genuine Islam, Vol. 1, No. 81936.
"History makes it clear however, that the legend of fanatical Muslims sweeping through the world and forcing Islam at the point of the sword upon conquered races is one of the most fantastically absurd myths that historians have ever repeated."
De Lacy O'Leary, Islam at the Crossroads, London, 1923, p.8
Sounds like it but it's not. By the words "I am", he refers to Yahweh...meaning before there was Abraham, there was "I am" (Yahweh).Originally posted by: Machine350
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. - John 8:58
Sounds like something God would say.
God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." He said further, "Thus you shall say to the Israelites, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"
Originally posted by: sao123
I guess the notion of salvation through Jesus is secondary to me because to recognize this, I would have to accept the divinity of Jesus which I am not convinced of.
If Jesus is the only way to salvation, then God sounds too detached from Jesus, if they are to be one and the same.
Again, it comes down to the doctrine of the trinity which is most confusing. If they are one and three at the same time, who is Jesus praying to according to John 12:27?
"Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour."
Edit: Is the "hour" he is referring to the time before his capture by the Romans? Or is he himself asking for forgiveness and help from God. In any case, why does he need help if he IS God and a powerful member of the trinity?
He is praying to the father, to not have to die on the cross, which he knew was his whole purpose in being born.
I believe 3 times, Jesus prayed about this.
Father, save me from this hour
Father, let this cup passeth from me
I forget the third.
Originally posted by: ohnnyj
Originally posted by: TBone48
Man this could go on for, like, ANOTHER 2,000 years!
Unless Jesus returns before then .
Originally posted by: GreatBarracuda
Originally posted by: kinev
Um, GreatBarracuda, I think you're barking up the wrong tree trying to convert conjur to Islam. I'm expecting a somewhat humerous response from him. Also, could you point out what verses in that list of yours contradict what. And, if you don't mind, don't just copy and paste from your islam-info site stuff either. We can all use the internet. We are all familiar with google. If I want islam-info's opinion, I can go there myself. We can play cut and paste all day without getting anything done.
In the sense of seriousness, can I ask you a couple questions?
1.What is required of a Muslim to spend eternity with God when he/she dies?
2.What is that (p.b.u.h) you put after the names of prophets? Just curious.
As for your latest questions, let me quickly try to reply. With the verses from the Bible that I quoted, I want you to consider the concept of monotheism, the belief of the worship of one God that is emphasized there. There are many more places in the Bible where you can see this. I have quoted only a few.
Again, I can't stress this point enough. If Jesus was a descendant of Abraham (which Muslims and Christians all believe), why the great departure from his teachings? Meaning, why does the Bible absolutely and totally abandon the central concept of monotheism in Abrahamic faiths with the divinity of Jesus? As a Muslim, I can never accept that Jesus (p.b.u.h) would make such a claim, never. This is something that is such a cardinal component of Abrahamic faiths that anything that even remotely deviates from the oneness of God should and is regarded as perverted by Muslims.
If Jesus were divine, why did not the prophets before him know of this clearly and completely? Abraham certainly didn't know about it, considering he is the patriarch of Islam, Christianity and Judaism. One of the greatest prophets ever to grace this earth.
Now kinev, I really must ask you to hold off your questions for a few weeks. This is because I am very busy with my exams for EE which start next week and as you know I have spent a lot of time on these forums in the last few days . We can resume discussion after April 20th. I would really appreciate it.
Originally posted by: conjur
Sounds like it but it's not. By the words "I am", he refers to Yahweh...meaning before there was Abraham, there was "I am" (Yahweh).Originally posted by: Machine350
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. - John 8:58
Sounds like something God would say.
Exodus 3:14
God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." He said further, "Thus you shall say to the Israelites, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"