A question about Christianity...

[conjur]

Originally posted by: Attrox
It's already pointed out in kinev's previous post I think. There's only 1 God having 3 characteristics: Father, Son and the Holy spirit. Of course this is hard to grasp because we are simply a human being.

Again, that's a distortion of the Bible. The Council of Nicea is what decided to turn Jesus into a divine being and distorted the meaning of "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit"

Again, those terms are merely titular names for various positions in the priestly line.

Jesus's teachings were such that he believed all people could practice all Jewish rituals and all could be saved and that the high priests were not a necessity. Why do think the priests wanted him crucified? He was threatening their power.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: Machine350

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: Machine350
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. - John 8:58

Sounds like something God would say.

Sounds like it but it's not. By the words "I am", he refers to Yahweh...meaning before there was Abraham, there was "I am" (Yahweh).

Exodus 3:14

God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." He said further, "Thus you shall say to the Israelites, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"

Exactly, Jesus claimed to be the voice of the burning bush.

No, he didn't.

The people that say that Jesus never claimed to be God have never read the bible.

The opposite is true. Well, at least those who claim Jesus did claim to be God may have read the Bible but they don't understand as they take it literally and ignore the symbolism.


edit: He was stoned because his meaning was misinterpreted, just like many "Christians" misinterpret it today.

 

[Machine350]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: Machine350

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: Machine350
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. - John 8:58

Sounds like something God would say.

Sounds like it but it's not. By the words "I am", he refers to Yahweh...meaning before there was Abraham, there was "I am" (Yahweh).

Exodus 3:14

God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." He said further, "Thus you shall say to the Israelites, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"

Exactly, Jesus claimed to be the voice of the burning bush.

No, he didn't.

The people that say that Jesus never claimed to be God have never read the bible.

The opposite is true. Well, at least those who claim Jesus did claim to be God may have read the Bible but they don't understand as they take it literally and ignore the symbolism.


edit: He was stoned because his meaning was misinterpreted, just like many "Christians" misinterpret it today.

What are you talking about? Jesus was never actually stoned. It's easy to say what you are saying, but it doesn't make sense when you look at the bible as a whole.

 

[conjur]

My mistake...he was almost stoned.


BTW, some good books to read:

Who Wrote the Bible? - Richard Elliott Friedman

The Bible Unearthed: Archaeology's New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of Its Sacred Texts - Neil Asher Silberman

From Jesus to Christianity: How Four Generations of Visionaries and Storytellers Created the New Testament and Christian Faith - L. Michael White

BTW, that last author was the main source for PBS's special From Jesus to Christ

 

[kalster]

not to troll or sidetrack

but a quick question

btw I am NOT a christian, I was wondering how does Christianity view other religions/God's. I am a Hindu myself and have been reading the Bhagwad Gita lately, from what I have read Hinduism seems to be a very open and accepting to people of other faith/belief/religion. I was interested to see how othere religions dealt with this aspect

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: kalster
not to troll or sidetrack

but a quick question

btw I am NOT a christian, I was wondering how does Christianity view other religions/God's. I am a Hindu myself and have been reading the Bhagwad Gita lately, from what I have read Hinduism seems to be a very open and accepting to people of other faith/belief/religion. I was interested to see how othere religions dealt with this aspect

Christianity (esp. Catholics and others more conservative) is very arrogant in that respect. It's either you believe Jesus was divine and died on the cross for our sins or you're going to hell.

 

[ohnnyj]

Originally posted by: kalster
not to troll or sidetrack

but a quick question

btw I am NOT a christian, I was wondering how does Christianity view other religions/God's. I am a Hindu myself and have been reading the Bhagwad Gita lately, from what I have read Hinduism seems to be a very open and accepting to people of other faith/belief/religion. I was interested to see how othere religions dealt with this aspect

Well, Christians should be tolerant of people of all religious beliefs but that does not mean the all are. Regardless, teh Christian faith professes that the ONLY way to God and heaven is through Jesus Christ and as such Christians may be tolerant of others they do not think that they will make it to heaven on their current path.

I have a hard time with this sort of subject. I can see how people from various walks of life, brought up in certain areas that have certain beliefs will be set in those beliefs. And as such I can't see how a Christian can make someone believe their faith just as much as a Muslim/Hindu/etc. can do the reverse. Of course conversions do happen, but the majority of people who are brought up in a religious environment of some sort will more than likely die with those beliefs. Thus another dilema comes up, whoever is right (cause lets face it not everyone is going to end up being correct) is good to go but what of everyone else. Just cause they were not born in the right area or right family does that automatically revoke their opportunity to go to the next level after we die (whatever that may be as some religions don't necessarily have a concept of a heaven or what have you).

I would like to think that God is caring enough to allow for these kinds of things. I mean as long as you don't go against basic human morals, then I have a hard time believing God will condemn those sorts of people. But once again, I am merely a human and won't know until I am gone, just like everyone else.

 

[FeuerFrei]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: Attrox
It's already pointed out in kinev's previous post I think. There's only 1 God having 3 characteristics: Father, Son and the Holy spirit. Of course this is hard to grasp because we are simply a human being.

Again, that's a distortion of the Bible. The Council of Nicea is what decided to turn Jesus into a divine being and distorted the meaning of "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit"

Again, those terms are merely titular names for various positions in the priestly line.

Jesus's teachings were such that he believed all people could practice all Jewish rituals and all could be saved and that the high priests were not a necessity. Why do think the priests wanted him crucified? He was threatening their power.

Conjur is spreading a lot of disinformation.
Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were never titular names for various positions in the priestly line. That's just laughable.
Priests were the "go between" people, who represented the people to God and offered the sacrifices brought by the people. Priests were the man/God interface.
Jesus did introduce a new concept to the Jews which caused the religious leaders not to like him. He said the people no longer needed the priests to represent them, they could go to God directly themselves and ask forgiveness. Jesus Christ hears their prayers and intercedes before the Father on their behalf. (NOT the Virgin Mary) Jesus is uniquely suited to represent us because he became human just like us and knows what it's like. That is how the New Testament era differs from the Old Testament era.
Yes, the religious leaders of the day did not like Jesus' teachings but they really should have realized the prophecies of the Old Testament were being fulfilled by Jesus and embraced him as the Messiah.

Jesus was 100% divine and 100% human. He never stopped being God.

 

[FeuerFrei]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: kalster
not to troll or sidetrack

but a quick question

btw I am NOT a christian, I was wondering how does Christianity view other religions/God's. I am a Hindu myself and have been reading the Bhagwad Gita lately, from what I have read Hinduism seems to be a very open and accepting to people of other faith/belief/religion. I was interested to see how othere religions dealt with this aspect

Christianity (esp. Catholics and others more conservative) is very arrogant in that respect. It's either you believe Jesus was divine and died on the cross for our sins or you're going to hell.

It might seem arrogant but let's face it... either your right or your not. You can't adopt the belief structure of say, a Hindu, and expect God to understand. Jesus said, "No man comes to the Father but by me."

 

[ohnnyj]

I also feel that the term Son of Man used by Jesus can actually be attributed to divinity. In Daniel 7:13-14 (NIV), he prophecied:

"In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed."

Clearly if Jesus claimed to be the Son of Man, this is a direct reference to Daniel's vision, the one who is given authority over everything and is worshipped. Sounds like divinity to me.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: FeuerFrei

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: Attrox
It's already pointed out in kinev's previous post I think. There's only 1 God having 3 characteristics: Father, Son and the Holy spirit. Of course this is hard to grasp because we are simply a human being.

Again, that's a distortion of the Bible. The Council of Nicea is what decided to turn Jesus into a divine being and distorted the meaning of "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit"

Again, those terms are merely titular names for various positions in the priestly line.

Jesus's teachings were such that he believed all people could practice all Jewish rituals and all could be saved and that the high priests were not a necessity. Why do think the priests wanted him crucified? He was threatening their power.

Conjur is spreading a lot of disinformation.
Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were never titular names for various positions in the priestly line. That's just laughable.
Priests were the "go between" people, who represented the people to God and offered the sacrifices brought by the people. Priests were the man/God interface.
Jesus did introduce a new concept to the Jews which caused the religious leaders not to like him. He said the people no longer needed the priests to represent them, they could go to God directly themselves and ask forgiveness. Jesus Christ hears their prayers and intercedes before the Father on their behalf. (NOT the Virgin Mary) Jesus is uniquely suited to represent us because he became human just like us and knows what it's like. That is how the New Testament era differs from the Old Testament era.
Yes, the religious leaders of the day did not like Jesus' teachings but they really should have realized the prophecies of the Old Testament were being fulfilled by Jesus and embraced him as the Messiah.

Jesus was 100% divine and 100% human. He never stopped being God.

BWA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!! Disinformation? Me? No, that would be the Church of Rome for the last 1800 years.

I'll post more detail tomorrow.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: FeuerFrei

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: kalster
not to troll or sidetrack

but a quick question

btw I am NOT a christian, I was wondering how does Christianity view other religions/God's. I am a Hindu myself and have been reading the Bhagwad Gita lately, from what I have read Hinduism seems to be a very open and accepting to people of other faith/belief/religion. I was interested to see how othere religions dealt with this aspect

Christianity (esp. Catholics and others more conservative) is very arrogant in that respect. It's either you believe Jesus was divine and died on the cross for our sins or you're going to hell.

It might seem arrogant but let's face it... either your right or your not. You can't adopt the belief structure of say, a Hindu, and expect God to understand. Jesus said, "No man comes to the Father but by me."

Uh....yeah....sure.

More distortion from a Fund-A-Mental.

 

[FeuerFrei]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: FeuerFrei

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: Attrox
It's already pointed out in kinev's previous post I think. There's only 1 God having 3 characteristics: Father, Son and the Holy spirit. Of course this is hard to grasp because we are simply a human being.

Again, that's a distortion of the Bible. The Council of Nicea is what decided to turn Jesus into a divine being and distorted the meaning of "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit"

Again, those terms are merely titular names for various positions in the priestly line.

Jesus's teachings were such that he believed all people could practice all Jewish rituals and all could be saved and that the high priests were not a necessity. Why do think the priests wanted him crucified? He was threatening their power.

Conjur is spreading a lot of disinformation.
Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were never titular names for various positions in the priestly line. That's just laughable.
Priests were the "go between" people, who represented the people to God and offered the sacrifices brought by the people. Priests were the man/God interface.
Jesus did introduce a new concept to the Jews which caused the religious leaders not to like him. He said the people no longer needed the priests to represent them, they could go to God directly themselves and ask forgiveness. Jesus Christ hears their prayers and intercedes before the Father on their behalf. (NOT the Virgin Mary) Jesus is uniquely suited to represent us because he became human just like us and knows what it's like. That is how the New Testament era differs from the Old Testament era.
Yes, the religious leaders of the day did not like Jesus' teachings but they really should have realized the prophecies of the Old Testament were being fulfilled by Jesus and embraced him as the Messiah.

Jesus was 100% divine and 100% human. He never stopped being God.

BWA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!! Disinformation? Me? No, that would be the Church of Rome for the last 1800 years.

I'll post more detail tomorrow.

OK. I might agree with you on the Church of Rome spreading disinformation.

 

[The Green Bean]

well accordin to Islam, jesus was just a prophet and messenger in the line of prohets that preceeded Mohammed SAW....The bible has been seviorly distorted...how can a man be expected to traslate the word of god? The word of God can have many deeper, much deeper meanings. Why do some people take the Quran and Bible literally? You mean the Quran and Bible were/are story books? WTH are you thinking? Every word, every letter, sentence has a meaning. And until you don't know the meanings, you will fall into the whole making sense of direct interpretations.....

 

[conjur]

Ah...here's something for now.

http://graal.co.uk/bloodlinelecture.html

Raisings and resurrections could only be performed by the High Priest or by the Father of the Community. The High Priest at that time was Joseph Caiaphas (the very man who condemned Jesus), therefore the raising had to be performed by the patriarchal Father. There are Gospel accounts of Jesus talking to the Father from the cross, culminating in "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit" - and the appointed Father of the day was the Magian apostle Simon Zelotes.

Note that "raisings and resurrections" referred to bringing someone out of ex-communication, not from raising someone who was literally dead.

Actually, read that whole transcript. I also recommend reading that whole book, The Illustrated Bloodline of the Holy Grail: The Hidden Lineage of Jesus Revealed - Laurence Gardner, Foreword by Prince Michael of Albany


More,

http://mirrorh.com/timelinesum.html

1,008 B.C. - King David - "David of Bethlehem married Saul's daughter to become King of Judah [corresponding to half of the Palestinian territory] in around 1,008 B.C. Subsequently, he also acquired Israel [the balance of the territory] to become overall King of the Jews."
"From the time of King David, the dynasty of Abiathar [2 Samuel 20:25] was established in the hierarchy of senior priests. The line of Zadok was the primary priestly heritage and the line of Abiathar was second in authority. In addition to the traditional priestly styles, the Essenes also preserved the names of the Old Testament archangels within their governing structure. Hence, the Zadok priest was also the archangel Michael, while the Abiathar priest [whatever his personal name] was also the angel Gabriel. Being subordinate to the Zadok/Michael [the Lord - 'like unto God'], the Abiathar/Gabriel was designated Angel of the Lord [the ambassador of the Michael-Zadok]. This angelic system is detailed in the Book of 1 Enoch 4:9, wilst the War Scroll 9:15-17 identifies the angels' order of priestly ranking during the Gospel era."

 

[artecnical]

Maybe this link will help.

link

 

[ohnnyj]

Originally posted by: artecnical
Maybe this link will help.

link

:thumbsdown:

 

[TBone48]

Originally posted by: Papagayo
YahWeh was a man.... baby!!!!...

D**n, that's funny!:laugh:

 

[kinev]

Originally posted by: kalster
not to troll or sidetrack

but a quick question

btw I am NOT a christian, I was wondering how does Christianity view other religions/God's. I am a Hindu myself and have been reading the Bhagwad Gita lately, from what I have read Hinduism seems to be a very open and accepting to people of other faith/belief/religion. I was interested to see how othere religions dealt with this aspect

I think it's been pretty well covered already. Christianity is not politically correct. Jesus and the Bible do not allow any wiggle room. Jesus said in John 14:6 that he is the ONLY way to Heaven. Does that mean that everybody who is not a Christian is going to Hell? That is not my call, but in my opinion, that is what the Bible is saying.

I think that this is partially why Christians are being persecuted in our society today. I don't mean like an inquisition or anything, but we all recognize that the cardinal sin in our society is to be intolerant. That is what Christianity is, as far as salvation goes. This is why the media and many people bash Christianity on a regular basis. Even this board shows it. Nik said that on the first page. It's cool to bash Christianity because they are closed minded. Well, yes, Christians are closed minded when it comes to salvation. There is One way, One truth, and One life; Jesus. If I am closed minded and un-PC because I believe the Bible, fine. Jesus said that Christians will be persecuted. The world rejected Him and it will reject us as well.

The inevitable question that always comes up is: what about the savages on a remote island who have never heard of Jesus? Are they going to Hell just fro being born in the wrong place? How is that fair of God? I, myself, struggled with this. The answer is in Romans 1 somewhere. I will look it up and confirm when I get home. Basically, if a person has never heard the gospel (the good news about Jesus dying for their sins) but they worship a creator instead of His creations, Jesus will judge what is in their heart. Everybody has a conscience. God has given everybody an internal measure of right and wrong whether thay have heard the gospel or not. It is by this standard that Jesus will judge the people who have never heard of the cross.

I am paraphrasing from memory and I will correct anything if I need to when I get home.

 

[Machine350]

Right Kinev, Romans 1 addresses that issue. It basically states that no man will have an excuse and that nature itself is a witness of God. I am paraphrasing of course. Ya know, the fact that Christians are persecuted comforts me, because Jesus said it would happen. The fact that it does happen reaffirms his divinity in my opinion. If Christians were accepted and celebrated, I might be questioning my beliefs right now.

 

[ohnnyj]

I believe the answer is in Romans 2:

"5But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6God ?will give to each person according to what he has done.?[a] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are selfseeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11For God does not show favoritism.

12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares."

 

[newParadigm]

Originally posted by: GreatBarracuda
As the topic summary says, how can Jesus die if he is God? Or is Jesus not God? According to Christian scholars, the disciples of Jesus were convinced that he was fully God in human form. Doesn't the Bible also quote Jesus as saying "I and the Father are one"?

The trinity (where the whole notion that jesus is God comes from) was created by men, specifiically Ceasar (cant remember his name, it was the one who saw crosses in the sky), at the COnference of Nicia, and there is actually no reference to it in the orignal texts of the bible.

God is not jesus. Jesus is the son of God by imactualte conception (i know that sounds really really religous, but its the clearest way to say it). Jesus died as the final sacrafice for the sins of mankind, and God raised him on the third day.

So the answer to your question is: God couldn't and didn't raise himself from the dead, becauase he never died, his human son died. Besides God can't die.

~new

Cliff notes

1 Trinity is hogwash
2 Jesus is not God
3 God never died
4 God raised his son from the dead (who DID die)
5 ...
6 Profit (specifically eternal life with God in his kingdom)

 

[kinev]

Originally posted by: newParadime

Originally posted by: GreatBarracuda
As the topic summary says, how can Jesus die if he is God? Or is Jesus not God? According to Christian scholars, the disciples of Jesus were convinced that he was fully God in human form. Doesn't the Bible also quote Jesus as saying "I and the Father are one"?

The trinity (where the whole notion that jesus is God comes from) was created by men, specifiically Ceasar (cant remember his name, it was the one who saw crosses in the sky), at the COnference of Nicia, and there is actually no reference to it in the orignal texts of the bible.

God is not jesus. Jesus is the son of God by imactualte conception (i know that sounds really really religous, but its the clearest way to say it). Jesus died as the final sacrafice for the sins of mankind, and God raised him on the third day.

So the answer to your question is: God couldn't and didn't raise himself from the dead, becauase he never died, his human son died. Besides God can't die.

~new

Cliff notes

1 Trinity is hogwash
2 Jesus is not God
3 God never died
4 God raised his son from the dead (who DID die)
5 ...
6 Profit (specifically eternal life with God in his kingdom)

Read the thread. There are numerous EXPLICIT CLAIMS (to used barracuda's term) that Jesus makes as to His divinity. Couple that with the many indirect claims(miracles, forgiving sins, praise, etc) and it is indisputable that the Bible states that Jesus claimed to be God.

There seems to be some confusion over the council of Nicea, though. It was about 352 AD and headed by Emperor Constantine (no, not keanu). It was through the Nicean Creed that the divinity of Jesus was reaffirmed. It was not a new concept, though. They came up with the creed in response to sects of Christianity (Gnostics) that were claiming that Jesus was not divine. The Gnostics were heavily influenced by Plato and basically believed that all flesh is temporary and evil. If this is true, then God, being perfect, could not take a flesh form. Were the Gnostics influenced by the Bible? No, of course not. Jesus clearly claimed to be divine. The Gnostics were relying on the teachings of Plato instead of scripture. The divinity of Christ was not something new "invented" at the council of Nicea, it was an understood concept that had to be reinforced due to secular pressure.

Again, I am paraphrasing this and I will correct anything, if necessary when I get home.

 

[Aquila76]

Originally posted by: GreatBarracuda
As the topic summary says, how can Jesus die if he is God? Or is Jesus not God? According to Christian scholars, the disciples of Jesus were convinced that he was fully God in human form. Doesn't the Bible also quote Jesus as saying "I and the Father are one"?

As everyone has said here so far, religious themes are great for starting a flame war.

Anyhoo, my belief (based on reading the Bible and various non-religious sponsored works) as to why Jesus was able to come to Earth as a human and die, is not really cut and dry, but here goes.
1.) God, Jesus, and Spirit are seperate, not a Trinity. The Trinity is a pagan teaching that the churches used to get more people as members.
2.) Jesus was the first thing God created. Jesus is the Son of God , but not God himself.
3.) Jesus came to Earth to lead us back to God and to die as a perfect human to offset the sin comitted by the only other originally perfect human, Adam. This shows God's balance and justice.
4a.) Jesus is referred to as 'a god' in the New Teatament, but God is refered to as 'almighty god' or 'our God and Father', etc. but always as a seperate individual.
4b.) The Bible says that Jesus and God are 'one', but the word translated 'one' means unified thinking, action, etc. such as 'one and the same' is used to show how closely two seperate things are to each other. A more accurate rendering used is that Jesus is in union with God, like a business union.

Again, this is what I've come to believe, but we are all entitled to our own ideas and philosophies. Hope this helped!

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: kinev
Read the thread. There are numerous EXPLICIT CLAIMS (to used barracuda's term) that Jesus makes as to His divinity. Couple that with the many indirect claims(miracles, forgiving sins, praise, etc) and it is indisputable that the Bible states that Jesus claimed to be God.

Miracles? What miracles? There wasn't a single miracle performed by Jesus. You mean like raising the dead (Lazarus)? Sorry. That was Simon Zelotes and he wasn't dead. He was quite alive. He'd been ex-communicated, though, and Jesus restored him from that (and that is what was meant by raising the dead.)

Why do people continue to take the Bible literally after all of research done that shows the truth?

Mind-boggling.

You don't need a divine Christ to follow his teachings.

There seems to be some confusion over the council of Nicea, though. It was about 352 AD and headed by Emperor Constantine (no, not keanu). It was through the Nicean Creed that the divinity of Jesus was reaffirmed. It was not a new concept, though. They came up with the creed in response to sects of Christianity (Gnostics) that were claiming that Jesus was not divine. The Gnostics were heavily influenced by Plato and basically believed that all flesh is temporary and evil. If this is true, then God, being perfect, could not take a flesh form. Were the Gnostics influenced by the Bible? No, of course not. Jesus clearly claimed to be divine. The Gnostics were relying on the teachings of Plato instead of scripture. The divinity of Christ was not something new "invented" at the council of Nicea, it was an understood concept that had to be reinforced due to secular pressure.

Again, I am paraphrasing this and I will correct anything, if necessary when I get home.

It's true the trinity wasn't wasn't a new concept but it was never part of the Bible yet it became doctrine after the Council.

Again, Jesus NEVER claimed to be divine. Sheesh.