A question about Christianity...

[TBone48]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: kinev
Read the thread. There are numerous EXPLICIT CLAIMS (to used barracuda's term) that Jesus makes as to His divinity. Couple that with the many indirect claims(miracles, forgiving sins, praise, etc) and it is indisputable that the Bible states that Jesus claimed to be God.

Miracles? What miracles? There wasn't a single miracle performed by Jesus. You mean like raising the dead (Lazarus)? Sorry. That was Simon Zelotes and he wasn't dead. He was quite alive. He'd been ex-communicated, though, and Jesus restored him from that (and that is what was meant by raising the dead.)

Why do people continue to take the Bible literally after all of research done that shows the truth?

Mind-boggling.

You don't need a divine Christ to follow his teachings.

There seems to be some confusion over the council of Nicea, though. It was about 352 AD and headed by Emperor Constantine (no, not keanu). It was through the Nicean Creed that the divinity of Jesus was reaffirmed. It was not a new concept, though. They came up with the creed in response to sects of Christianity (Gnostics) that were claiming that Jesus was not divine. The Gnostics were heavily influenced by Plato and basically believed that all flesh is temporary and evil. If this is true, then God, being perfect, could not take a flesh form. Were the Gnostics influenced by the Bible? No, of course not. Jesus clearly claimed to be divine. The Gnostics were relying on the teachings of Plato instead of scripture. The divinity of Christ was not something new "invented" at the council of Nicea, it was an understood concept that had to be reinforced due to secular pressure.

Again, I am paraphrasing this and I will correct anything, if necessary when I get home.

It's true the trinity wasn't wasn't a new concept but it was never part of the Bible yet it became doctrine after the Council.

Again, Jesus NEVER claimed to be divine. Sheesh.

Water into wine, Lazarus, loaves and fishes, walking on water, etc. All in the Bible, performed by Jesus. I understand you don't believe in His divinity but the Bible says what it says, and quite clearly. YOu have read and studied works which refute the claims of the Bible and I respect your right to follow those teachings but to claim that it isn't the literal truth in the patronizing tone you take is disrespectful of the people who DO believe it.

It's true Jesus doesn't need to be divine for us to follow His teachings, but HIs purpose for being on Earth at all was not to give us moral guidance but to bring us salvation through faith in Him as the Son of God.

 

[newParadigm]

Originally posted by: TBone48
...but to bring us salvation through faith in Him as the Son of God.

You just showed how contradicting the trinity is. You say he [Jesus] came to bring savlation as the Son of god, yet you also say he is divine, and God. Since all christians also believe in only ONE god, you cannot possibly mean Christ is ANOTHER god, so what do you mean?

Crhist is not god! HE did not perform those mircales, GOD did performed them THROUGH him [Jesus].

Peter walked on water as well, Paul healed many sick people, Elijah commanded a bear to attack some children that were ridiculing him, Elijah called down fire from heaven in front of the preists of Bail, the list goes on. Are these people all part of God as well?

The verse 'I and my father are one', as previusly stated, does not refer to God and Jesus being one being. It refers to God and christ's union.

[text] denotes anything added by me for clarity

John Ch. 10
24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father?s name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father?s hand.
30 I and my Father are one.
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he [Moses, the author of the law] called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

That's the whole record.

Jesus here states how that if Moses called men of God 'gods' in the Old Testament, why do they attempt to stone him for calling himself the Son of God, less then God.

Jesus is not God, a god, bart of a three part God Head or anything else.



~new

 

[kinev]

Originally posted by: newParadime

Originally posted by: TBone48
...but to bring us salvation through faith in Him as the Son of God.

You just showed how contradicting the trinity is. You say he [Jesus] came to bring savlation as the Son of god, yet you also say he is divine, and God. Since all christians also believe in only ONE god, you cannot possibly mean Christ is ANOTHER god, so what do you mean?

Crhist is not god! HE did not perform those mircales, GOD did performed them THROUGH him [Jesus].

Peter walked on water as well, Paul healed many sick people, Elijah commanded a bear to attack some children that were ridiculing him, Elijah called down fire from heaven in front of the preists of Bail, the list goes on. Are these people all part of God as well?

The verse 'I and my father are one', as previusly stated, does not refer to God and Jesus being one being. It refers to God and christ's union.

[text] denotes anything added by me for clarity

John Ch. 10
24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father?s name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father?s hand.
30 I and my Father are one.
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he [Moses, the author of the law] called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

That's the whole record.

Jesus here states how that if Moses called men of God 'gods' in the Old Testament, why do they attempt to stone him for calling himself the Son of God, less then God.

Jesus is not God, a god, bart of a three part God Head or anything else.



~new

Swing.....and a miss. Read the whole thread. It's been covered.

 

[sao123]

Is Jesus Christ God?

 

[TBone48]

Originally posted by: sao123
Is Jesus Christ God?

:thumbsup: Great link!

 

[Machine350]

Originally posted by: sao123
Is Jesus Christ God?

Awesome link. :thumbsup:

 

Father = Son = Holy Spirit

/thread

 

[QuitBanningMe]

Originally posted by: sao123
Is Jesus Christ God?

Jesus was not the first or the last person to claim they were the Messiah and use actions described in the OT to support their claims. One question:

"My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

Jesus was just another false prophet who thought the world would end and his death would bring it about.

 

[lobadobadingdong]

Originally posted by: QuitBanningMe

Originally posted by: sao123
Is Jesus Christ God?

Jesus was not the first or the last person to claim they were the Messiah and use actions described in the OT to support their claims. One question:

"My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

Jesus was just another false prophet who thought the world would end and his death would bring it about.

Revelation 21:6-7??And he [Jesus Christ] said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.?

That question was easily answered.

 

[QuitBanningMe]

Originally posted by: lobadobadingdong

Originally posted by: QuitBanningMe

Originally posted by: sao123
Is Jesus Christ God?

Jesus was not the first or the last person to claim they were the Messiah and use actions described in the OT to support their claims. One question:

"My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

Jesus was just another false prophet who thought the world would end and his death would bring it about.

Revelation 21:6-7??And he [Jesus Christ] said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.?

That question was easily answered.

That in no way answered the question.

Also just a note there are several versions of revelations all claiming to be inspired by Jesus/God. That one was picked because it was scarier. Have to keep the people in line ya know.

If someone said Jesus said it it must be true. :roll:

 

[Machine350]

Originally posted by: QuitBanningMe

Originally posted by: sao123
Is Jesus Christ God?

Jesus was not the first or the last person to claim they were the Messiah and use actions described in the OT to support their claims. One question:

"My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

Jesus was just another false prophet who thought the world would end and his death would bring it about.

Your answer : "For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." - 2 Cor. 5:21

Jesus cried that on the cross for the same reason that He made no defense for himself during the trials, because He was taking our place and we are guilty.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: sao123
Is Jesus Christ God?

<yawn>


Someday you'll all realize what symbolism is.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: TBone48

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: kinev
Read the thread. There are numerous EXPLICIT CLAIMS (to used barracuda's term) that Jesus makes as to His divinity. Couple that with the many indirect claims(miracles, forgiving sins, praise, etc) and it is indisputable that the Bible states that Jesus claimed to be God.

Miracles? What miracles? There wasn't a single miracle performed by Jesus. You mean like raising the dead (Lazarus)? Sorry. That was Simon Zelotes and he wasn't dead. He was quite alive. He'd been ex-communicated, though, and Jesus restored him from that (and that is what was meant by raising the dead.)

Why do people continue to take the Bible literally after all of research done that shows the truth?

Mind-boggling.

You don't need a divine Christ to follow his teachings.

There seems to be some confusion over the council of Nicea, though. It was about 352 AD and headed by Emperor Constantine (no, not keanu). It was through the Nicean Creed that the divinity of Jesus was reaffirmed. It was not a new concept, though. They came up with the creed in response to sects of Christianity (Gnostics) that were claiming that Jesus was not divine. The Gnostics were heavily influenced by Plato and basically believed that all flesh is temporary and evil. If this is true, then God, being perfect, could not take a flesh form. Were the Gnostics influenced by the Bible? No, of course not. Jesus clearly claimed to be divine. The Gnostics were relying on the teachings of Plato instead of scripture. The divinity of Christ was not something new "invented" at the council of Nicea, it was an understood concept that had to be reinforced due to secular pressure.

Again, I am paraphrasing this and I will correct anything, if necessary when I get home.

It's true the trinity wasn't wasn't a new concept but it was never part of the Bible yet it became doctrine after the Council.

Again, Jesus NEVER claimed to be divine. Sheesh.

Water into wine

False.

Lazarus

Simon Zelotes was returned from ex-communication, not from the dead

loaves and fishes

False.

walking on water

Again, false. That refers to a ritual whereby priests would haul up people in nets from a dinghy onto a larger boat.

It's called S Y M B O L I S M.


Get a clue.

 

[Stojakapimp]

Originally posted by: QuitBanningMe

Originally posted by: sao123
Is Jesus Christ God?

Jesus was not the first or the last person to claim they were the Messiah and use actions described in the OT to support their claims. One question:

"My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

Jesus was just another false prophet who thought the world would end and his death would bring it about.

When Jesus said that, I believe he was speaking in Hebrew. This is a good clue that the reason he said it was to point people to a specific Psalm verse. In those days, the Pslams weren't numbered, so they indicated a psalm by stating the first line. Well, if you read that Psalm, you'll notice that it describes how the Son of God will be killed, and it describes perfectly the crucifixion that was taking place.

 

[kinev]

Originally posted by: conjur
Again, Jesus NEVER claimed to be divine. Sheesh.

Water into wine[/quote]False.

Lazarus

Simon Zelotes was returned from ex-communication, not from the dead

loaves and fishes

False.

walking on water

Again, false. That refers to a ritual whereby priests would haul up people in nets from a dinghy onto a larger boat.

It's called S Y M B O L I S M.


Get a clue.[/quote]

Well, heck, I'm convinced.

 

[conjur]

Good. Stop babbling nonsense, then.

Seriously, I've posted several books in this thread (and others) from various biblical scholars and archaeologists that, when actually read, uncover the truth of Jesus's humanity (not his divinity.)

That someone *needs* Jesus to be divine in order to have faith in a god is a very sad indictment as to the quality of that faith.

 

[SXMP]

I would like to agree with Nik in that your best solution would probably be talking with an ordained minister of Christianity. With that said, I find John Piper's explanation of the Trinity concise and accurate.

Here's the link John Piper: "Can you explain the doctrine of the Trinity and its biblical support?"

Something further to consider: If you are willing to accept there is an all powerful God, who is both omniscent and omnipotent, a God who cannot be fully understood by human thought, then I don't see why its so hard to believe that God who is incomprehensible can do something incomprehensible, like exist in the Trinity as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

I hope this helps.

John

 

[SXMP]

After reading through the rest of this thread, I want to thank Kinev and GreatBarracuda for there debate. It has opened my eyes up further to the truth. More firmly than ever do I see the persecution of Christianity; let me defend that:

This thread has covered aspects of Christianity from all areas, (the Trinity, the divine being of Christ, the validity of the Bible, and many more.) Why this strikes me as being so important is that for every new question posed, Christianity has an answer in Jesus. Again and again, those seeking to find fault with Christianity must move on to a new point, because theirs has been refuted.

Thanks guys,
John

 

[Ausm]

Originally posted by: GreatBarracuda

Originally posted by: Nik

Originally posted by: GreatBarracuda

Originally posted by: Nik
We've tried many, many, many times. Asshats refuse to leave it alone. They fvck up serious, legitmate threads with their childish insults.

But you're not one of them, right? So why don't you take an attempt at answering this question for me?

Considering the post I just quoted, it seems to me as though you're not interested in learning, just arguing. If you want to talk about it, I'm all for it, but I won't do it here because of the profound lack of respect of religion on these forums. Oh, and you'll have to pry open that closed mind of yours.

Well, the "asshats" come in here with a preconception and argue until someone like-minded confirms it. You wouldn't be much different either if you think that I have come here to argue before we have even started talking about the matter at hand. My mind's open to ideas ... is yours?

Anyone who believes that shat is neither open minded or facing reality.

Ausm

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: SXMP
After reading through the rest of this thread, I want to thank Kinev and GreatBarracuda for there debate. It has opened my eyes up further to the truth. More firmly than ever do I see the persecution of Christianity; let me defend that:

It's not a persecution of Christianity. There wouldn't be as much heated debate if the Fund-A-Mentals wouldn't force their beliefs on others. That's not what Jesus taught.

This thread has covered aspects of Christianity from all areas, (the Trinity, the divine being of Christ, the validity of the Bible, and many more.) Why this strikes me as being so important is that for every new question posed, Christianity has an answer in Jesus. Again and again, those seeking to find fault with Christianity must move on to a new point, because theirs has been refuted.

Delusional much? Everything re:the divinity of Christ has been debunked numerous times by many biblical scholars and historians. A Christian should NOT need to believe in a divine Christ in order to be a Christian and follow his teachings. People who do are missing the message completely.

 

[TBone48]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: SXMP
After reading through the rest of this thread, I want to thank Kinev and GreatBarracuda for there debate. It has opened my eyes up further to the truth. More firmly than ever do I see the persecution of Christianity; let me defend that:

It's not a persecution of Christianity. There wouldn't be as much heated debate if the Fund-A-Mentals wouldn't force their beliefs on others. That's not what Jesus taught.

This thread has covered aspects of Christianity from all areas, (the Trinity, the divine being of Christ, the validity of the Bible, and many more.) Why this strikes me as being so important is that for every new question posed, Christianity has an answer in Jesus. Again and again, those seeking to find fault with Christianity must move on to a new point, because theirs has been refuted.

Delusional much? Everything re:the divinity of Christ has been debunked numerous times by many biblical scholars and historians. A Christian should NOT need to believe in a divine Christ in order to be a Christian and follow his teachings. People who do are missing the message completely.

No one disputes your point that Christ doesn't need to be divine to be a teacher or role model. However, those whom you derisively call "Fund-A-Mentals" focus on the need for a Savior which we belive to be Christ. Following a person's teachings and philosophies won't get your soul into heaven- we believe only faith in Jesus as Savior can do that. Please feel free to believe otherwise, but don't be so condescending. I never saw that kind of attitude taught by Jesus.

 

[kinev]

Originally posted by: TBone48

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: SXMP
After reading through the rest of this thread, I want to thank Kinev and GreatBarracuda for there debate. It has opened my eyes up further to the truth. More firmly than ever do I see the persecution of Christianity; let me defend that:

It's not a persecution of Christianity. There wouldn't be as much heated debate if the Fund-A-Mentals wouldn't force their beliefs on others. That's not what Jesus taught.

This thread has covered aspects of Christianity from all areas, (the Trinity, the divine being of Christ, the validity of the Bible, and many more.) Why this strikes me as being so important is that for every new question posed, Christianity has an answer in Jesus. Again and again, those seeking to find fault with Christianity must move on to a new point, because theirs has been refuted.

Delusional much? Everything re:the divinity of Christ has been debunked numerous times by many biblical scholars and historians. A Christian should NOT need to believe in a divine Christ in order to be a Christian and follow his teachings. People who do are missing the message completely.

No one disputes your point that Christ doesn't need to be divine to be a teacher or role model. However, those whom you derisively call "Fund-A-Mentals" focus on the need for a Savior which we belive to be Christ. Following a person's teachings and philosophies won't get your soul into heaven- we believe only faith in Jesus as Savior can do that. Please feel free to believe otherwise, but don't be so condescending. I never saw that kind of attitude taught by Jesus.

Well put.

 

[Googer]

Originally posted by: Nik

Originally posted by: GreatBarracuda

Originally posted by: Nik
:roll:

If you have a serious religious question, go ask your local pastor. Don't ask the hoards of fvcking asshats on a computer forum that flame Christianity -not religion, just Christianity.

I think there are many intelligent and reasonable Christians here who can discuss this with me in a civil manner. Or am I wrong?

We've tried many, many, many times. Asshats refuse to leave it alone. They fvck up serious, legitmate threads with their childish insults.

I agree, they should be banned or never respond to threads that they have nothing constructive to contribute to.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: TBone48

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: SXMP
After reading through the rest of this thread, I want to thank Kinev and GreatBarracuda for there debate. It has opened my eyes up further to the truth. More firmly than ever do I see the persecution of Christianity; let me defend that:

It's not a persecution of Christianity. There wouldn't be as much heated debate if the Fund-A-Mentals wouldn't force their beliefs on others. That's not what Jesus taught.

This thread has covered aspects of Christianity from all areas, (the Trinity, the divine being of Christ, the validity of the Bible, and many more.) Why this strikes me as being so important is that for every new question posed, Christianity has an answer in Jesus. Again and again, those seeking to find fault with Christianity must move on to a new point, because theirs has been refuted.

Delusional much? Everything re:the divinity of Christ has been debunked numerous times by many biblical scholars and historians. A Christian should NOT need to believe in a divine Christ in order to be a Christian and follow his teachings. People who do are missing the message completely.

No one disputes your point that Christ doesn't need to be divine to be a teacher or role model. However, those whom you derisively call "Fund-A-Mentals" focus on the need for a Savior which we belive to be Christ. Following a person's teachings and philosophies won't get your soul into heaven- we believe only faith in Jesus as Savior can do that. Please feel free to believe otherwise, but don't be so condescending. I never saw that kind of attitude taught by Jesus.

That's because Jesus never claimed to be divine. Doing so is a gross distortion of his teachings and has no basis in anything other than a continuation of the lies and propaganda spread by the Church of Rome for centuries. You want more peace in this world and less arrogance? Follow what Jesus actually taught, not what the Church tells you to believe.

And, btw, the Fund-A-Mentals deserve everything that gets heaped upon them. They brought it upon themselves.

 

[Promethply]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: SXMP
After reading through the rest of this thread, I want to thank Kinev and GreatBarracuda for there debate. It has opened my eyes up further to the truth. More firmly than ever do I see the persecution of Christianity; let me defend that:

It's not a persecution of Christianity. There wouldn't be as much heated debate if the Fund-A-Mentals wouldn't force their beliefs on others. That's not what Jesus taught.

This thread has covered aspects of Christianity from all areas, (the Trinity, the divine being of Christ, the validity of the Bible, and many more.) Why this strikes me as being so important is that for every new question posed, Christianity has an answer in Jesus. Again and again, those seeking to find fault with Christianity must move on to a new point, because theirs has been refuted.

Delusional much? Everything re:the divinity of Christ has been debunked numerous times by many biblical scholars and historians. A Christian should NOT need to believe in a divine Christ in order to be a Christian and follow his teachings. People who do are missing the message completely.

I'd agree with Conjur on this point.

Having spent time in the "Bible-belt" South where most people go to church (sometimes three times a week) and the more liberal Pacific Northwest,

I noticed that most people in the South are much more racist and closed minded, whereas people in Seattle are more open minded and most are neither sexist nor racist.

So definitely, someone does not have to believe in any divine being in order to treat their fellow human beings decently, because at the end of the day, IMHO, following the "golden rule" is the glue that'll bind societies together.