A Question for the Consumers

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SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
14,332
4,604
136
Originally posted by: Xavier434
I am satisfied with the quality and the reason I am satisfied is because the FDA does a good job most of the time when it comes to my medicines. I am generally happy with most of my products and services for that matter.

Are you sure it is because the FDA is doing a wiz-bang job, or could it be that the large pharma companies know that if people become afraid of their products they will no longer be a large pharma company?

Why would I want to completely revamp the system considering the number of unknowns and risks involved if we did when I am mostly satisfied now? I recognize that there are flaws but they are not nearly large enough to convince me that we should privatize the whole thing. That is lunacy imo.

What a lot of other people, like me, are afraid of is that the FDA is not making drugs any safer, but instead justifying outlandish prices for those drugs, and perhaps even insulating companies from blame when a mistake is made.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
61
Originally posted by: Xavier434
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: Xavier434
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: Xavier434
Sorry pal, but as I already stated, I would much rather have the government regulate certain products like medicine so that when my kid is sick I don't have to walk down the pharmacy isle fearing that one of the products I buy for him might make him a lot worse and maybe even put him in the hospital.

It happens all the time.

And the FDA isn't the only organization that could do this job. If the government wasn't doing it, someone else would. And they'd most likely do a better job of it. If not, another organization would simply do it.

I'd rather leave it in the hands of the government.

Yeah, because they are so effective and efficient.

See, that is where you and I share a different opinion. I don't believe that everything in government is ineffective and inefficient. In the case of orgs like the FDA, it depends on the product we are talking about like I keep mentioning post after post. Personally, I don't have any problems with the medicines. I live without fear that my medicines have a very low chance of hurting me or my loved ones when I buy them. I am satisfied with the quality and the reason I am satisfied is because the FDA does a good job most of the time when it comes to my medicines. I am generally happy with most of my products and services for that matter.

Why would I want to completely revamp the system considering the number of unknowns and risks involved if we did when I am mostly satisfied now? I recognize that there are flaws but they are not nearly large enough to convince me that we should privatize the whole thing. That is lunacy imo.

So stories like this one...
http://seattletimes.nwsource.c...6_apfdadissidents.html
... don't bother you?
 

Xavier434

Lifer
Oct 14, 2002
10,373
1
0
Originally posted by: SMOGZINN
Are you sure it is because the FDA is doing a wiz-bang job, or could it be that the large pharma companies know that if people become afraid of their products they will no longer be a large pharma company?

No, I am not sure, but my best guess is that it is a mixture of both and that is perfectly fine. I am sure that I have never personally experienced any problems with any drugs so far in my life so that counts for a lot imo. I like the idea of a mixture of government and private industry checks and balances to get the job done right. Leaning too far in either direction (free market vs govt) is usually where the biggest problems start.


Originally posted by: SMOGZINN
What a lot of other people, like me, are afraid of is that the FDA is not making drugs any safer, but instead justifying outlandish prices for those drugs, and perhaps even insulating companies from blame when a mistake is made.

Ok, what do you propose we do to give you peace of mind? Privatizing it doesn't change that problem. It just shifts it and gives it a new coat of paint, but it doesn't change it. Personally, I would rather just keep it all the same but maybe add a little more checks and balances in there with more detailed audits or something. Not sure exactly, but I am confident that less drastic solutions are out there as opposed to revamping the whole thing.



Originally posted by: bamacre
So stories like this one...
http://seattletimes.nwsource.c...6_apfdadissidents.html
... don't bother you?

Not really because the story isn't over. What could end up bothering me is the final outcome such as the concerns being ignored for reasons I deem unacceptable. The story does not provide nearly enough evidence about whether or not anyone is ignoring anything. Basically, what that story is presenting are rumors. Nothing is confirmed yet. I try not to let rumors scare me, but that does not mean I ignore them. I expect the government to look into it. If there really is a problem, I have confidence Obama and/or his team will take appropriate action once enough information is gather and analyzed. Only time will tell.




 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
61
Originally posted by: Xavier434
Originally posted by: bamacre
So stories like this one...
http://seattletimes.nwsource.c...6_apfdadissidents.html
... don't bother you?

Not really because the story isn't over. What could end up bothering me is the final outcome such as the concerns being ignored for reasons I deem unacceptable. The story does not provide nearly enough evidence about whether or not anyone is ignoring anything. Basically, what that story is presenting are rumors. Nothing is confirmed yet. I try not to let rumors scare me, but that does not mean I ignore them. I expect the government to look into it. If there really is a problem, I have confidence Obama and/or his team will take appropriate action once enough information is gather and analyzed. Only time will tell.

LOL, yeah, there's either nothing to the story, or if there is, Obama will fix it all. :laugh:
 

Xavier434

Lifer
Oct 14, 2002
10,373
1
0
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: Xavier434
Originally posted by: bamacre
So stories like this one...
http://seattletimes.nwsource.c...6_apfdadissidents.html
... don't bother you?

Not really because the story isn't over. What could end up bothering me is the final outcome such as the concerns being ignored for reasons I deem unacceptable. The story does not provide nearly enough evidence about whether or not anyone is ignoring anything. Basically, what that story is presenting are rumors. Nothing is confirmed yet. I try not to let rumors scare me, but that does not mean I ignore them. I expect the government to look into it. If there really is a problem, I have confidence Obama and/or his team will take appropriate action once enough information is gather and analyzed. Only time will tell.

LOL, yeah, there's either nothing to the story, or if there is, Obama will fix it all. :laugh:

....or he will fail to do his job and begin to lose some of my support.

See, now this has simply boiled down to a question of confidence in government instead of policy and procedure. I have confidence to a degree and it is case specific. You don't seem to have it at all. That's perfectly fine. It is your choice, but understand that just because bamacre doesn't have confidence it does not mean that everything the government does will not be a good thing. Likewise, just because I have confidence it doesn't mean that everything they do is a success. Again, when it comes to the FDA, only time will tell with this new administration.
 

First

Lifer
Jun 3, 2002
10,518
271
136
rofl. I still laugh at this libertopian nut that believes some private entity would come in and do a better, consistent, and more effective job than the FDA. We just had one of the biggest collapses of private industry in U.S. history (Lehman, AIG, et al) and yet we're supposed to believe that private industry would be immune to corruption, greed, or bankruptcy? What happens if this privately held FDA goes under, who is there to keep the standards of food up to snuff? Will a corporation magically appear out of the blue the very moment this privately run FDA fails? What's the contingency plan if we go months or years without another entity being formed in the market place?

I guess that's why libertarians don't make good risk managers. And in general, this is why libertarians don't amount to much; they rely on blind faith almost as much as religious wingnuts, except their idols in this case are unmitigated capitalism.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
61
Originally posted by: Evan
rofl. I still laugh at this libertopian nut that believes some private entity would come in and do a better, consistent, and more effective job than the FDA. We just had one of the biggest collapses of private industry in U.S. history (Lehman, AIG, et al) and yet we're supposed to believe that private industry would be immune to corruption, greed, or bankruptcy? What happens if this privately held FDA goes under, who is there to keep the standards of food up to snuff? Will a corporation magically appear out of the blue the very moment this privately run FDA fails? What's the contingency plan if we go months or years without another entity being formed in the market place?

I guess that's why libertarians don't make good risk managers. And in general, this is why libertarians don't amount to much; they rely on blind faith almost as much as religious wingnuts, except their idols in this case are unmitigated capitalism.

As opposed to blind faith in the FDA? Or government in general?

And why compare for-profit corporations to what would most likely be non-profit organizations that would do the FDA's job?
 

First

Lifer
Jun 3, 2002
10,518
271
136
^ There is no blind faith in the FDA here, that's merely your flawed interpretation. FDA is the best, but flawed, option. Your alternative is the inferior, but flawed, option. Simple benefit-cost analysis. Private industry could reasonably be argued as, very generally, more efficient than gov't since their mandates and goals are more demanding and they see more competition. But they are the clear cut inferior alternative to gov't when it comes to solvency; private industry goes bankrupt at a rate an order of magnitude higher than the federal gov't. And while their efficiency is a good thing, the glaring reality is that their motives for profit present a conflict of interest, since publicly traded private companies' responsibilities are to their shareholders, not the health and well-being of the American people. The well-being of citizens is certainly a consideration of private industry, but not the far and away #1 mandate like it is for (albeit more inefficient) government institutions like the FDA.
 

First

Lifer
Jun 3, 2002
10,518
271
136
And please elaborate on just how a non-profit private company is going to get the billions of dollars it needs to ensure the safety of foods and drugs in the U.S.?
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: Xavier434
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: Xavier434
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: Xavier434
Sorry pal, but as I already stated, I would much rather have the government regulate certain products like medicine so that when my kid is sick I don't have to walk down the pharmacy isle fearing that one of the products I buy for him might make him a lot worse and maybe even put him in the hospital.

It happens all the time.

And the FDA isn't the only organization that could do this job. If the government wasn't doing it, someone else would. And they'd most likely do a better job of it. If not, another organization would simply do it.

I'd rather leave it in the hands of the government.

Yeah, because they are so effective and efficient.

See, that is where you and I share a different opinion. I don't believe that everything in government is ineffective and inefficient. In the case of orgs like the FDA, it depends on the product we are talking about like I keep mentioning post after post. Personally, I don't have any problems with the medicines. I live without fear that my medicines have a very low chance of hurting me or my loved ones when I buy them. I am satisfied with the quality and the reason I am satisfied is because the FDA does a good job most of the time when it comes to my medicines. I am generally happy with most of my products and services for that matter.

Why would I want to completely revamp the system considering the number of unknowns and risks involved if we did when I am mostly satisfied now? I recognize that there are flaws but they are not nearly large enough to convince me that we should privatize the whole thing. That is lunacy imo.

So stories like this one...
http://seattletimes.nwsource.c...6_apfdadissidents.html
... don't bother you?

You guys seem to be talking past each other.

Xavier is right that the answer is to fix the FDA, not replace it with privatization.

Bamacre is right that his article shows a terrible problem -namely, the result of the leadership being the party whose #1 donor industry is the drug industry and whose party phislophy is to give the private wealthy what they want and not to represent the public interest against those private wealthy, as the FDA was designed to do.

That's what leads to the industry virtually picking its own overseers, the regulators coming from the drug industry lobbyist ranks, the fox guarding the henhouse.

Contrast the two following stories:

1960, a former pharmacology professor, Frances Kelsey - not an industry person - is on her first FDA drug review. The drug company told her it was a routiine sedative, Thalidomide, that had been sold in Germany for years, nothing to worry about. It was being prescribed to thousands of pregnant women in Europe. Kelsey saw anomolies in the test data that led her to withhold approval. The company pushed, but she resisted; by the following year, thousands of babies with deformed limbs were being born in Europe to mothers who had taken the drug. Sadly, because the company had given a million free samples to US doctors in the meantime who had given them to patients without warnings, there were many such children born here as well. She was awarded the Distinguished Service Medal by President Kennedy for her efforts. (This incident led to a new law prohibitng such free samples of unapproved drugs the next year by the Democratic administration and Congress).

1965, Aspartame was invented accidentally by a chemist (who licked his thumb and it tasted sweet). The approval process had such bad data submitted to the FDA, they not only did not approve it but at one point planned criminal charges against the company. Studies showed it created brain tumors in mice (presumably at very high amounts).

In 1977, Republicans lost the White House, and President Ford's former chief of staff left to head drug company Searly, who owned Aspartame. He sent it back for approval in 1980; the FDA created an independant board to review the product, and decided not to approve it. But by 1981, Reagan was in office, and his new FDA commissioner overruled the FDA's independant commission and approved the product. Shortly after, the commissioner left the FDA to work for Searle's PR firm.

The CEO of Searle who had pushed the product through to approval: Donald Rumsfeld.

Now, whatever you think of the safety of Aspartame, there are clear problems with the appearance of corruption with that process.

Under Bush, to keep the FDA ineffective, much of the time he hasn't even appointed a full-time commissioner.

There's a lot more - for example, the Republicans, with their top donors the drug industry, make the corrupt Medicare bill that prohibited Medicare from negotiating the price of drugs and was a vehicle for giving the industry hundreds of billions of taxpayer dollars, followed the suggestion of a very similar bill suggested by right-wing/Libertarian think tank 'Cato Institute' - who receives funding from the drug industry. The Congressman who led the effort to pass the bill left just after it passed to a nice position in the drug industry.

We need to fix the corruption, not get rid of the institutions created to represent the public interest against the private sector just because corrupt leaders are corrupt.
 

miketheidiot

Lifer
Sep 3, 2004
11,060
1
0
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: frostedflakes
Originally posted by: vi edit
Originally posted by: bamacre
College tuition?

Good call. It's absurb how fast tuition rates have skyrocketed. It's almost $25k a year to go IN STATE to University of IL Champaign/Urbana.
Yikes. My in-state tuition is ~$4k/semester.

I graduated in Dec '98 from an in-state, and tuition was less than a grand per semester.

in 2004, tuition at my school was 1500 a semester, now its 3500

my state has a billion dollar/year surplus just sitting around, and the schools is forcing us to pay for a broken software system (thanks, oracle!) and an unnecessary new wellness center that doesn't even have to basics. For instance, should i want to go swim or run, i have to go to the old gym. To add insult to injury, they built it off campus, and now allow any random local to come in and use it. If i wanted to pay $250 a semester to use an off campus gym, i would have joined to ymca or something, at least the ymca has a pool.
 

miketheidiot

Lifer
Sep 3, 2004
11,060
1
0
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: Xavier434
Sorry pal, but as I already stated, I would much rather have the government regulate certain products like medicine so that when my kid is sick I don't have to walk down the pharmacy isle fearing that one of the products I buy for him might make him a lot worse and maybe even put him in the hospital.

It happens all the time.

And the FDA isn't the only organization that could do this job. If the government wasn't doing it, someone else would. And they'd most likely do a better job of it. If not, another organization would simply do it.

market failure.

how exactly is a company supposed to charge for this information? Odds are you would end up with a system where the producer would pay for the ratings, and these ratings would be subject to the same motivations as credit ratings agencies.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I think the Postal Service is a tremendous deal. I wish they'd turn over to them our medical care. The doctor knocks twice at the door. "Hello, my dear Patron, how do you feel. Have you tried ginger tea?"

Doctors making house calls? That's obviously economically not feasible - which is why it's never happened. Our profitable medical industries are doing all that can be done.

Besides, who does it make more sense to have do the travelling for the visit? Clearly the sick or injured person, because they aren't busy while sick or injured anyway.

Remembe those old movies where the doctor was at someone's house? I remember a giant ape in one, too.
 
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