?? about routers and DSL

potac

Member
Jul 10, 2000
84
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I want to share DSL between two puters and want to know if I need a router and a hub or does the router work as the hub? The DSL is through CenturyTel and they are charging $170 for it. I found a Linksys one online for $88. Can I use that one or are their routers "special" to their DSL so you are not allowed to use a third party router? Thx
 

Sohcan

Platinum Member
Oct 10, 1999
2,127
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A router itself has two ports: the WAN port (to connect to the DSL/cable modem) and the LAN port (to connect to the network). Some routers, such as the Netgear RT314 and the Linksys BEFSR41, include a 4-port 10/100 switch, but otherwise they need to be used with a hub or switch.
 

potac

Member
Jul 10, 2000
84
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This is the one I am looking at off buy.com ETHERFAST CBL/DSL ROUTER 1 PORT 10/100 VERSION For now I will only have two puters on the network but want to have room to add more later. I have a 4-port hub already so would this work then? Do I still need a DSL modem or do I just run a network cable from the NIC's in both puters? Thanks
 

Sohcan

Platinum Member
Oct 10, 1999
2,127
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You can use that hub, but keep in mind that you'll only have one free port (one port to connect to the router, and two to the computers). You still need a DSL modem...an Internet connection is somewhat necessary.
 

CniCE

Member
May 27, 2000
40
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This is how I have mine setup. First DSL Modem, you need that. Then that plugs into the router. Mine is the linksys one that you probably saw for $88, the one port. Very good deal and easy to setup, so far I haven't encountered any probs and even noticed a slight speed increase. Just make sure to download latest firmware if you go with the linksys, which is very easy to do. Anyways from the router it plugs into my intel 4-port hub which then goes out to the various computers. You plug the HUB into the LAN opening in the back of the router and the DSL modem goes into the WAN opening. Pretty easy and straightforward. Good luck.

CniCE
 

potac

Member
Jul 10, 2000
84
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Thanks for the help. Think I might be able to wrestle this one out. Any job can be done with a couple beers.
 

CTweak

Senior member
Jun 6, 2000
451
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0
Just did this with Bellsouth's DSL.

Step one, get DSL up and running on one PC (Or let the incompetent tech do it for you). This way you ensure there are no DSL problems since most providers will not support multi PC configurations. So you want to verify that there are no problem on their end first.

Once that's running, then begin adding the networking into the mix. It should all plug up like this ... phone line into DSL modem, 10BaseT from DSL modem to WAN port of Router, 10BaseT from regular port(s) of router to PC(s) or to another hub(s).

As for software configuration, you should have NO special software (PPPoE crap likely installed by above 'tech') running on any PC once you go to using the router. Just have the TCP/IP configuration set to match what the Router specifies - normally the router will be a DHCP host and you will want the Adapter to 'Obtain an IP address automatically', with DNS disabled. DNS will be done my the router. Again, this is all covered in quick setup guides that come with the router.

This web site http://www.practicallynetworked.com/ has good tips and how tos, as well as good reviews of a few DSL routers. I've had good luck with the Lynksys BESFR41 here, easy to set up and works like a champ.
 

Eug

Lifer
Mar 11, 2000
24,003
1,622
126
OK. I posted a question about this in the networking forum and two people complained about the Linksys. Why?

I want to run DSL on PPPoE with ONE computer for now, but to use the router as a firewall. Eventually I will attach a hub and and then a second wireless hub to the first hub, for a wireless laptop connection.

Anybody have any comments?

By the way, my networking friend claims they're US$55 from his supplier, but I think that's very near wholesale.
 

Eug

Lifer
Mar 11, 2000
24,003
1,622
126
http://www.practicallynetworked.com/reviews/lil_linksys_router.asp

The main "fly in the ointment" is the fact that both the 1 and 4 port routers quietly corrupt data for some users (you don't know it's happened until you try to use the transferred file!). Although Linksys has helped some users work around this, others have returned the routers in frustration. I don't think Linksys has found the root cause of the problem yet, so it's possible that this little guy could cost you some hair follicles, too!

Hmmm.....
 

potac

Member
Jul 10, 2000
84
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0
Okay...the linksys router might not be the best choice. Here is my other question. Can you just use the "Internet connection sharing" through Win98se? I have done it with Dial-up connections and it has worked fine and someone told me I can do it with DSL too? Is that true?
 

bigshooter

Platinum Member
Oct 12, 1999
2,157
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71
If you have a cisco 675 dsl router, then you can configure NAT on that. Then all you need is a hub.
 

dszd0g

Golden Member
Jun 14, 2000
1,226
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If you use Internet connection sharing you would have your DSL modem connect to one machine. That machine has a second NIC in it that either 1) plugs into the hub which then plugs into the other machine or 2) plugs into the second machine with a crossover cable.

I personally don't like the Internet connection sharing approach since one machine is dependent on the other.

I recommend the Netgear RT31x for price/performance. Although, CISCO was mentioned and there is absolutely nothing wrong with CISCO. I would recommend CISCO to any business. I just don't think the extra money is worth it at home and the Netgear works just fine. The main difference between the CISCO and Netgear you will find is CISCO has by far the best buffering of any networking equipment out there (patented I believe.) This means if your connection is running saturated continuously for long periods (not likely at home) anything other than a CISCO is going to drop more packets. The Cisco has monitoring while the Netgear has none. This is almost the entire justification for the difference in price. The first network problem on the LAN/WAN that requires you to look at the switches pays for that difference in price in the corporate world. I have had to swap out non-monitoring switches for monitored switches in the corporate world in order to trace down network issues. That same functionality is just not needed for home or small business use.

If you only have one IP from your ISP you need to either use the Internet Connection Sharing or a router that will do NAT (Network Address Translation) for you. The Netgear RT311 and Cisco 67x will do NAT.

The Cisco 675 is approx $372 and the Netgear RT311 is approx $112. For home and small business use I would recommend the Netgear. For large business use I would recommend the Cisco.

A third alternative is if you have the parts for an old Pentium or K6 lying around, you could build a Linux box with two network cards and do IP masquerading with ipfwadm (2.0), ipchains (2.2), or netfilter (2.4). This is only really valid if you either want to learn Linux or already know Linux. I am sure if you already knew Linux you wouldn't have asked this question in the first place, you would have just built yourself a Linux box to solve the problem.

The Netgear claims to be able to do some SPF (Stateful Packet Filtering) firewalling. To the best of my knowledge the Cisco only does simple packet filtering (not sure.) The Linux box you can set-up as complicated firewalling as you want. In this day and age I recommend using something to secure your network, if nothing more than ZoneAlarm on each of your Windows machines. The problem with setting up a firewall for most people is you really need to know what you are doing to set it up correctly. I am very impressed by how ZoneAlarm works and is easily understood by the layman.
 

hans007

Lifer
Feb 1, 2000
20,212
18
81
i have that linksys 1 port router. You hook up your hub to the lan port, and an external modem to the wan port (i've got a cable modem) it has to be external though. if you have an internal one, you'd have to set up a dedicated computer with the dsl modem and a nic as your router.
 

Soccerman

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
6,378
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0
"A router itself has two ports: the WAN port (to connect to the DSL/cable modem) and the LAN port (to connect to the network). Some routers, such as the Netgear RT314 and the Linksys BEFSR41, include a 4-port 10/100 switch, but otherwise they need to be used with a hub or switch."

I don't understand why you call this a ROUTER. a ROUTER, is MUCH more advanced then switches, or hubs (LOL). if you look at the price of a switch alone, you get into $700 (canadian).

now it seems that most devices marketed for people for these puposes, are either simple switches, or hubs. a switch allows for alot more data bandwidth when you are doing anything on the network (up to a full duplex 100mbps transfer rate, which is effectively 200mbps for EACH port). a hub, however, only propogates the signal and therefor is prone to collisions, and isn't as fast as a switch, by far.

now when thinking about the typical situation, you get nothing NEAR 100mpbs for the most part, so a HUB would be the best for connecting the computers together. as long as the HUB has a port for ADSL, or Cable modems, then you'll be fine.

I just don't understand why they are called ROUTER's!
 

CniCE

Member
May 27, 2000
40
0
0


<< The main &quot;fly in the ointment&quot; is the fact that both the 1 and 4 port routers quietly corrupt data for some users (you don't know it's happened until you try to use the transferred file!). Although Linksys has helped some users work around this, others have returned the routers in frustration. I don't think Linksys has found the root cause of the problem yet, so it's possible that this little guy could cost you some hair follicles, too! >>



This quote was taken back when the firmware version was still at 1.22 and 1.23. (Back in late may) Its currently at 1.34 and I believe the problem he was referring to was fixed in 1.30.



<< V1.30
Resolved issues going to some websites ie. www.match.com
Resolved the FTP Data Corruption
>>



Just make sure if you purchase the linksys router to download the lastest firmware.

CniCE
 

Sohcan

Platinum Member
Oct 10, 1999
2,127
0
0


<< I don't understand why you call this a ROUTER. a ROUTER, is MUCH more advanced then switches, or hubs (LOL). >>

The Netgear RT314 and Linksys BEFSR41 routers have the DSL/cable router plus an additional 4 10/100 switched ports...that's why they're called router/switch combos (by the companies themselves, not just me). Maybe I don't quite understanding what you're saying here...



<< if you look at the price of a switch alone, you get into $700 (canadian). >>

Yeah, for the high-end rack-mounted Cisco switches...home office desktop switches are much less expensive ($125 USD for the Netgear FS108 8-port 10/100 switch at Buy.com).

Network gaming gets a huge benefit from a switched network....I was playing DiabloII a few weeks ago with 7 computers from 500MHz to 800 MHz, and we had no lag whatsoever with my 10/100 switch. The same setup with 10/100 hub was lagging constantly.
 

dszd0g

Golden Member
Jun 14, 2000
1,226
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0
Sohcan, yeah I have an FS108 I use at home. It's great for network gaming. I just finished a game of Diablo II before checking the forums right now.



<< I just don't understand why they are called ROUTER's! >>



The easiest way I can explain is using ISO's OSI model. There are 7 layers in the OSI model. Physical, Data Link, Network, Transport, Session, Presentation, Application.

The Physical layer handles transmission of bits over a medium. The Data Link organizes bits into frames. The Network moves packets from source to destination. Transport handles data delivery and error recovery. Session establishes, manages, and terminates sessions. Presentation is the layer that provides the application with access to the hardware (OS and drivers). Application is well, the application.

A hub or repeater looks only a layers 1. A switch looks at layers 1 and 2. A router looks at layers 1-3. A packet filtering firewall looks at layers 1-4. A stateful packet filtering firewall looks at layers 1-5. A firewalling proxy looks at layers 1-7.

For TCP/IP a packet is layered into the Physical/Data Link, the Network -- IP, the Transport -- TCP and UDP, the session, presentation, and application layers are a little blurry. A lot of people don't like the OSI model because it is not perfect. I think it is helpful for learning.

A switch watches when a machine sends a packet and builds a CAM table of MAC addresses.

A router looks at the ARP part of IP and creates an ARP table to know where to route packets.

In summary, if they call it a router it looks at least at the Physical through Network layers.

A lot of networking equipment these days looks a little higher than it has to. Most routers these days will look at TCP and UDP and be able to do simple packet filtering. Some switches these days look at arp packets and can create virtual networks. I think this is beyond the scope of my message.

Edit: A message that long I was going to catch at least one typo.
 

tommyc

Member
Jul 3, 2000
147
0
0
dszd0g,
In another week the &quot;tech&quot; will arrive to complete my DSL install.
Eventually I will be networking 2 or 3 of my machines.
The &quot;crosstalk tween you and Sohcan&quot; has me confused. (I am Idiot)
I was thinking of using the netgear RT314. Both of you mentioned using
the FS108. Does that mean the FS108 can be used to do the same thing as the RT314. If so, are the physical connections then different, and
require additional or different software to function the same ?
Also mentioned was &quot;Zone Alarm&quot;. Would this be used instead of, or in addition to the RT314 firewall. Is the RT314 firewall just software
or is it the way the hardware is configged or functions ?
Is it simpler for a network newbie/idiot (me) to just use the RT314.
tommyc :Q
 

oldfart

Lifer
Dec 2, 1999
10,207
0
0
Be careful buying any DSL modem/router combo. If you are talking about Cisco 67x series, it is both a router and a DSL modem. DSL on the Wan side, Ethernet on the Lan side. There are different types of DSL; ADSL, CAP, DMT, G.Lite, SDSL, RADSL, IDSL .... and you need the right model to match. The Linksys and Netgear type routers are Ethernet to Ethernet and need to have a DSL modem in front of them.
 

Soccerman

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
6,378
0
0
ahh I see.. so in other words, the Router part of them, is normally to seperate whatever you have in your newtork so it isn't seen on the Internet (unless you bought multiple IP addresses). I'm guessing that's probably one of the only router functions it does right?
 

dszd0g

Golden Member
Jun 14, 2000
1,226
0
0
Soccerman: Sort of. A switch has a CAM table which caches machine locations for a certain period after that machine sends a packet on that subnet. A router has an routing table that tells it where to route packets. Both direct traffic to the correct port. The main difference is a router has the concept of subnets while plain switches have no concept of subnets. When you send a packet to the broadcast address on one of the ports on the switch it goes out all the ports. When you send a packet to the broadcast address and a router sees it, the router generally ignores it (I'm not going to get into the situations where it would be configured otherwise.)

A switch gets the info on what machines are where by building a CAM table by watching the Data Link layer and watches the source MAC address. When a switch receives a packet with a source MAC of foo and a destination MAC of bar. It records that foo is on the port it just received the packet for. Then it checks its CAM table to see if it has a record for bar. If bar is not in its CAM table, it sends the packets out all the ports.

A router on the other hand has a routing table and a default gateway. When a router receives a packet it looks at the Network layer and looks at the IP source and destination. It also keeps track of ARP packets to watch which port machines are on. If its routing table tells it which port to send a packet to it does so. If its routing table does not have the info it checks its ARP table to see if it can determine the best port. There are also protocols like BGP that can also influence this decision as to what the best route is. Otherwise, it sends the packet to the default gateway.

Hopefully, that helps. If you need more technical than that I will need to get my SO onto this thread. I'm just a sysadmin not a network person. I'm a computer geek, she's a network geek. I know enough networking to determine if the network is causing problems with my machines. She knows enough about computers to determine if a computer is causing problems with her network

oldfart:

Correct, the Netgear RT31x connects to a DSL modem on one side and your LAN on the other. Both with RJ45 ethernet connections. The Cisco performs the tasks of a DSL/ethernet router. It has an RJ11 phone connector on one end and an RJ45 on the other. Cisco has various models for the various types of DSL. Check there website for which model is for which xDSL. If you ever change ISPs and also change what type of DSL technology you use, you would need a new Cisco.

tommyc:

One uses an FS108 or some other hub or switch if their Router has a single port for the LAN. If you used a Netgear RT311 for example you would need a hub or switch for your LAN if you were connecting to more than one machine (One machine you could use a crossover cable.) If you had an RT314 as long as you have enough ports on the RT314 you just connect one machine to each port on the RT314. The RT314 performs the tasks of both the router and the switch. The RT314 has 4 ports. The FS108 has 8. I have both a 4 port hub in one room and an 8 port switch (FS108) in another other. My DSL modem connects to my router/firewall which then connects to my FS108 which then uses the crossover port and a normal patch cable to hook up to the 4 port hub.

That is another thing, some hubs and switches have one port that is either dedicated or togglable between straight through and cross-over. If you look at the picture on Netgears website of the FS104/FS108 you will see a black button on the far right. That button toggles between straight through and crossover. That port can be used to chain switches and hubs together with normal patch cables. You can also chain hubs and switches together with a non cross-over port and a cross-over cable. If you want to get really odd I had a friend whose hub had a dedicated crossover port (not togglable) and used a crossover cable to hook it up to a machine (cross-over + cross-over = straight through).

One mistake I often see people make: Some old hubs will have two ports on one side and one will be marked cross-over and the hub will have one more port than it advertises physically. For example a 4-port hub with 5-ports. Only one of those two ports can be used at the same time, if you want straight-through you use the straight-through, and if you want cross-over you use cross-over. But, not both at the same time. I think this is why companies are moving away from that and two the button. I'm sure they got a lot of tech support phone calls from people trying to use both ports. This one or the other port is still common on the $20 hubs you find at the local computer store. RTFM.

The RT314 should be good for you. You would hook up the DSL modem to one side and your two or three computers to the other. The RT314 can do NAT and simple firewalling.

If you want to be able to support more than 4 machines, I would get the RT311 and an FS108.

If you are getting enough IPs from your ISP that each of your machines can have a real IP, you may not need a router at all. One could just plug in a hub or switch (like the FS108) directly to the DSL modem and then use real IPs on each machine.

By real IPs I mean Internet addressable. For NAT you use non Internet addressable IPs such as the 10., 172.16, or 192.168.0 ranges. These are generally referred to as the unassigned ranges.

My set-up at home is really odd since I have 9 addressable IPs (2 for the router/firewall -- one internal and one external) The Internal network is both the addressable 8 IPs (6 usable, 1 network/old Sun broadcast, and 1 broadcast) and an entire unassigned subnet. Some machines internally can be addressed from the Internet others can not. If someone comes over they tell Windows to use DHCP and the Linux box assigns them an IP from the unassigned range, they are NATed and can access the Internet from my house.

Zone Alarm is a free (for non-commercial use) firewall program for Windows. You install it on a Windows box and it asks you what network traffic is O.K., and what isn't. It is very easy to use. I've been fiddling with it on the box I'm on right now. So right now I'm behind two firewalls I actually found out about its existance on the forums here, so if you do some searches on the forums you can find out more about it. It is available at http://www.zonelabs.com/ I here it gives a lot of false alarms, but that isn't my experience for obvious reasons (Hint: The first firewall is blocking them all.) So maybe I like it because I haven't experienced the worst part of it. However, you can disable the notifying you of alarms completely. So if you the notifaction gets anoying you can disable it.

I appologize if this message was either too technical or not technical enough. I was just trying to give enough info for you to have an idea on various set-ups. Just ask for clarification if you need it.
 

DRGrim

Senior member
Aug 20, 2000
459
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0
Damnit, there are some really smart people here

I am useing Internet Connection Sharing with a cable modem now, and I was wondering if I would benifit from this? Can you use cable modems instead of DSL? Thanks!
 

dszd0g

Golden Member
Jun 14, 2000
1,226
0
0
DRGrim, sure. You would just swap out the DSL modem for the cable modem in the above examples. Obviously, you could not use a Cisco type product as above since it has the DSL modem built in. You would have to use a Netgear/Linksys type that is just an ethernet to ethernet router. I know someone using the Netgear RT311 for @Home.

One warning though, most AUP (Acceptable Use Policies) for cable modem list it for one computer only. I know a lot of people who choose to ignore this. However, you will most likely want to avoid discussing any such set-up with them as it would be grounds for being disconnected. I obviously do not know what is in your AUP though. You may wish to review it.

However, the old don't fix it if it isn't broken holds true. If your current set-up is working just fine for you why change? You do currently have one computer dependent on the other so if this drives you nuts that could be a good reason for switching (no pun intended).
 

tommyc

Member
Jul 3, 2000
147
0
0
dszd0g,
Thanks for all the info. It was a bit too technical for ME but no matter. I saved the whole thread for later reference . When I &quot;get down to business&quot; I'm sure I'll more clearly understand all.
The DSL service I am getting is Ameritech Speedpath 768/128 which I
believe gives me 1 dynamic IP address. Is that what you meant ?
tommyc
 

Paladinexe

Senior member
Jul 18, 2000
307
0
0
Excellent thread. This one helps me alot. Am currently in the planning process for sharing my aDSL. Thanks to all for answering my question(s) in advance.
 
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