Advice on upgrading my rig

[hoss]

FIRST THINGS FIRST
==================

1. USES: most intensive uses will be Photoshop, Lightroom, and Gaming (WoW, Warhammer, etc).
2. BUDGET: $500-$600
3. COUNTRY: USA
4. BRAND ALLEGIANCE: None.
5. PARTS TO REUSE: CD/DVD, all peripherals, others (see below)
6. IF YOU HAVE SEARCHED SIMILAR THREADS: yes
7. OVERCLOCK? Maybe, but I'm pretty conservative by nature so nothing major.
8. WHEN? Now or the near future

CURRENT RIG
===========

MOBO: MSI K8N Neo4/SLI Socket 939 NVIDIA nForce4 SLI ATX AMD
CPU: AMD Athlon 64 X2 3800+ Toledo 2.0GHz
GPU: SAPPHIRE 100176L Radeon X1950PRO 256MB 256-bit GDDR3 PCI Express x16
RAM: OCZ Value Series 2GB (2 x 1GB) 184-Pin DDR SDRAM DDR 400 (PC 3200)
PSU: FORTRON SOURCE ATX 500W Power Supply, model AX500-A
CASE: Antec P180
CD/DVD: BenQ DVD Burner Black E-IDE/ATAPI Model DW1640
OS: Microsoft Windows XP HOME Edition
HDD (System): Seagate Barracuda 7200.8 ST3250823AS 250GB 7200 RPM Serial ATA150
MONITOR: Dell UltraSharp 2405FPW 24-inch Wide Aspect Flat Panel LCD Monitor


PROPOSED UPGRADES (Updated 9/25/08)
=================

MOBO: ASUS P5Q Pro LGA 775 Intel P45 ATX Intel Motherboard - Retail
CPU: Intel Core 2 Duo E8400 Wolfdale 3.0GHz 6MB L2 Cache LGA 775 65W Dual-Core Processor - Retail
GPU: PALiT XAE/48500+T352 Radeon HD 4850 512MB 256-bit GDDR3 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP Ready CrossFire Supported Video Card - Retail
RAM (8gb): mushkin 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory - Retail
CASE: Antec Three Hundred Black ATX Mid Tower Computer Case - Retail
OS: Microsoft Windows Vista Home Premium SP1 64-bit English for System Builders 1pk DSP OEI DVD - OEM

 

[coolpurplefan]

Uh, I read something about a guy who went from Vista to XP and his framerates shot up like 20% to 30%.

I don't know if RAM will make that much difference. I read once in BF2, 4GB of RAM in Vista is equal to 2GB in XP.

 

[TheKub]

Originally posted by: coolpurplefan
Uh, I read something about a guy who went from Vista to XP and his framerates shot up like 20% to 30%.

I don't know if RAM will make that much difference. I read once in BF2, 4GB of RAM in Vista is equal to 2GB in XP.

Stop reading old articles and stop believing people that have opinions based on 2 year old info.

OP, your build looks good. Personally, Id drop the aftermarket HSF the stock one is more than enough for the chip and if the Antec 300 is anything like the 900 it will stay pretty chilly inside anyway.

 

[Roguestar]

Vista takes more RAM but it does more with what it's given. Besides, you can't decide in two months time that you'd like to drop another 4GB of RAM into an XP system.

Your current PSU should be fine.

Drop down to the G.Skill DDR2-800 - it's cheaper and you'll not even be running it at DDR2-800 speeds when not overclocking hard so DDR2-1000 is a bigger waste.

Your graphics card was pretty nice at the time for bang/buck but if you check out the Radeon HD4670 you can get a nice little performance jump (not major, but a bit, and DX10 support too) and still be able to play most new games at 1280*1024 with the bells and whistles on for less than $100.

 

[hoss]

Thanks TheKub and Roguestar.

I think I'll up the budget a bit. The DDR2-800 2 x 2gb is only about $10-$15 cheaper, but savings are savings and I'm thinking about getting 8gb now anyway. Might throw some additional cash at a better graphics card since my monitor's native resolution is 1920 x 1200.

Any thoughts on how much better the performance will be on this machine vs. my current rig?

 

[Roguestar]

It'll be pleasingly smooth. Especially once you stick 4GB of RAM in and Vista gets all the indexing done and profiles your typical program usage, so in around a week or so you'll be enjoying the good life. If you're playing at 1920*1200 but aren't massively in to games, get the Radeon 4850; it'll still run most games at high details at that resolution (except crysis of course) without breaking the bank.

 

[heyheybooboo]

As noted, the Radeon X1950 Pro is holding you back. If your native screen rez is 1920 x 1200 consider a POWERCOLOR AX3850 512MD3 Radeon HD 3850 512MB 256-bit GDDR3 for $73 AR or even a GeForce 9600 GT which is around $100 with an Egg promo code.

The Q66 is not really the CPU for your needs. A higher-clocked E8xxx will run circle around it in PS which needs RAM and fast disk I/O more than additional cores. PS will eat up that 4gb of RAM - an additional 2-4Gb will be better for background processes and multitasking as opposed to cores.

Snagging an E7200 would pay for the extra RAMs ....

 

[hoss]

Okay, sounds like I should just go straight to 8gb of RAM.

heyheybooboo Thanks, I've run across tons of forum posts on the Q6600 vs. E8500. For some reason I was under the impression that the adobe products, particularly PS, were some of the more quad core friendly on the market. I guess that just because they are enabled doesn't mean they will perform better. There is a combo deal at the egg that gets you $35 off this combo:
Intel Core 2 Duo E8400 Wolfdale 3.0GHz LGA 775 65W Dual-Core Processor Model BX80570E8400
ASUS P5Q Pro LGA 775 Intel P45 ATX Intel Motherboard

Do you think that is a better CPU+MOBO combination then my original upgrade idea?

Roguestar Thanks again for the advice. I will check out the 4850.

 

[Roguestar]

FWIW, Quad core still seems to do better in a few filters and such in Photoshop. You'd need to spend almost the same money on a dual-core to get one that'll outperform it on speed alone. In my opinion, getting a quad core now is probably better for things like graphics and rendering, bearing in mind that newer versions of these kinds of software are no doubt going to be better at taking advantage of more cores.
http://www.anandtech.com/cpuch...howdoc.aspx?i=2963&p=7

 

[Denithor]

Keep in mind that a 65nm quad is going to be a lot warmer (especially if overclocked) than a 45nm dual (even at considerably higher speeds). The quad will also consume more power, increasing the cost of ownership over the next few years.

That combo deal is nearly ideal, I've considered buying it myself even though I don't have any need for yet another cpu/mobo right now.

Your PSU should certainly be enough to power your new build, but since that's nearly the only part you'll be recycling, why not just buy a newer/more efficient model and keep the other computer functional? Something like this OCZ 600W StealthStream model, use coupon code EMCAKCDAC to knock the price down to $38AR (and a free 4GB usb drive).

 

[heyheybooboo]

Originally posted by: hoss
Okay, sounds like I should just go straight to 8gb of RAM.

heyheybooboo Thanks, I've run across tons of forum posts on the Q6600 vs. E8500. For some reason I was under the impression that the adobe products, particularly PS, were some of the more quad core friendly on the market. I guess that just because they are enabled doesn't mean they will perform better. There is a combo deal at the egg that gets you $35 off this combo:
Intel Core 2 Duo E8400 Wolfdale 3.0GHz LGA 775 65W Dual-Core Processor Model BX80570E8400
ASUS P5Q Pro LGA 775 Intel P45 ATX Intel Motherboard

Do you think that is a better CPU+MOBO combination then my original upgrade idea?

Roguestar Thanks again for the advice. I will check out the 4850.

:thumbsup: nice combo

Adobe Premiere will run 4 parallel threads across a quad core when transcoding video - so if that is on your roadmap for substantial use a 'Q' could be considered. PS the app is not really multithreaded but as noted there are filters which run very well across 2 cores. More than 2 cores and it becomes more a matter of 'load balancing' as opposed to true thread parallelism.

If you are lucky with excellent ram and fast disk I/O you might hit 60-70% CPU utilization with a dual core. A scratch disk will help a bunch. PS works on data in a linear fashion and can't work on data block 'B' until it is finished with data block 'A'.

I think Tom's CPU Chart has got some numbers on the whole PS 'Quad-Dual' thing - IIRC the E8xxx's were 20%+ faster than a Q6600.

Also - even though PS is 32-bit (rumors of a 64-bit version are floating around) IIRC it can be set up to use as much as 55% of Win ram resources (more with Mac, I think) up to a total of 4Gb or so - that would leave substantial ram available for your multitasking and background processes if you are running 6-8Gb.

A newer 45nm will also have SSE4 instructions ...

 

[hoss]

I've been swimming to the point of drowning in Q6600 vs E8400/8500 discussions and comparison. heyheybooboo thanks for the tip on the Tom's Hardward CPU Chart. The E8400 was about 25% faster than the Q6600 in the PS test. For my current usage based on my existing software the E8400 may be the ticket. That and I can get a better motherboard for an all in cost $10 below the Q6600.

The thing keeping me interested in the quad core is the multitasking performance and the potential for future programs to use it. I generally run at least five or six programs at the same time: Lightroom, Photoshop, Firefox, MediaMonkey, MS Excel 2007 and xplorer2. If I'm scanning slides add Nikon Scan or Vuescan to the mix. Is the multitasking performance that much better? Keep in mind that I'm going to buy 8gb of RAM. Unfortunately I don't know which of the benchmarks is best to look at.

Am I giving up some performance today for significant performance tomorrow? The other thing pushing me towards the E8400 is that I will probably be able to pick up a cheap, better-than-Q6600 quad in 18 months once the Nethalam chips and their new socket hit the market. I graduated to dual core for less than $100 when Socket 939 was replaced. To be honest I don't see myself buying much new software in the coming year or two. PS CS4 is going to be $$, even for the upgrade. Lightroom 2 just came out, so LR3 is probably more than a year away.

Roguestar I think I have settled on the graphics card: ASUS EAH4850/HTDI/512M Radeon HD 4850 512MB 256-bit GDDR3 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP Ready CrossFire Supported

Denithor Yeah, this is looking more of a new build than a simple upgrade. I thought about buying the few additional components I would need a having two running boxes. However, I'm now looking at about $700 before tax to build this new rig and the 2nd box would have to go in the garage anyway since we don't have space in our one bed apt. The only reason I'm not keeping the case is because I don't really like the P180. The feet came off ages ago, the side panels became all wavy (the metal started to separate from the plastic), and there isn't much room in the lower compartment for the HDDs (cost me a SATA post on one HDD, thankfully only 80gb).

 

[Roguestar]

hoss: You could consider one of the non-reference cooler 4850 models, as the standard one gets shockingly hot.

If you're running "Lightroom, Photoshop, Firefox, MediaMonkey, MS Excel 2007 and xplorer2" at the same time, and actually having each one do stuff while working in the others (and not just switching between them to do a little work here and there in each at a time while keeping them open) then you may well benefit quite a lot from a quad core. The difference is between "multi-tasking" and just having multiple programs open at once. If you're transcoding video in the background while simultaneously using photoshop and having something scanning all at the same time, you may be a better off with the Q6600. Having thought about your needs I'd probably get a Q6600 and overclock it (to reap the benefits of the E8*** series clockspeeds) and be able to do it all at the same time, right now.

 

[hoss]

Roguestar I really appreciate all your help. Yeah, the multi-tasking probably isn't going to be very, well, multi. I won't be video encoding since I only work with still images. The most multi would be something like scanning a negative, listening to music, and manipulating photos at the same time.

As for the non-reference 4850, do you mean something like this:
SAPPHIRE 100242TXSR Radeon Toxic HD 4850 512MB 256-bit GDDR3 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP

or what about this one for cheaper:
PALiT XAE/48500+T352 Radeon HD 4850 512MB 256-bit GDDR3 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP

 

[Roguestar]

I specifically had this one in mind:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16814102770 Sapphire 512MB Radeon HD4850 with Dual-Slot Cooler
as it has a better cooler and is a smaller, revised board, but more or less any non-standard cooler will do. With the rebate that's currently on offer on the Palit one you linked, that's looking like a pretty good catch.

If you're not going to be running a lot of things at the same time, then stick with the dual-core :thumbsup:.

 

[hoss]

Roguestar Thanks again. Looks like I will be pulling the trigger tomorrow if I can get the time at work. I will do a final price check and trawl of the hot deals forum. I'm really looking forward to the upgrade.

 

[hoss]

Trigger pulled. Now the long wait for the free 3-5 day shipping. I will report back once it all gets put together and is hopefully running smoothly.