Age of the Wimp?

[Optimus]

rahvin:

I agree completely about the life society tells us we are supposed to have vs. what we really want!

I took a less paying job 25 min away instead of the 1-2 hour commute for more money. I leave at 8:30 and am home by 4:30. We have a small house, but we make do with it and use every square inch. We are a one car family - we shop as a family after work or weekends. My wife walks to friends houses or the park or the corner store during the week.

I work, she stays at home with the kids. Its not a gender thing - given the option we could swap in a heartbeat... but for now we both like our roles. Our rule is that one of us will always be there - no regular babysitters, nannys, daycare.

We share the household chores 50/50 when I'm home.

The reward? I get home and my wife gives me a kiss, my daughter (2 1/2 yrs old) runs shouting "Daddy daddy!" and hugs me, and my 5 week old son is already smiling at us!
There is nothing more important in life than time with loved ones. Work is only a means to that end. If work unnecessarily interferes with that time - something is terribly wrong.

Kids don't need expensive vacations, cars at 16, all the latest clothes and toys...

They need parents who love and spend time with them. Everything else is ball bearings.

 

[flavio]

The fifties hade a couple good things going for it but was mostly populated with naive, close-minded automatons. Anyone a little eccentric was ridiculed and probably beaten. That era sucked.

 

[datalink7]

Yah, you ain't a man till you've been in a fight and gone hunting

 

[Walay]

Ya, wish i am 50 years back too....but then i'll probalby loose my job since i won't have a computer to work~
and loose my cool acura integra, and have to drive a ford wagon instead: p and no 47" color tv~ no dvd, no video games, no cable........

nah.....i'll stay here i guess....

 

[JohnnyReb]

i agree with most of what you said except for the hunting part (maybe i'm biased, since i've never hunted). there is a difference between being afraid (wimp) and not finding the experience of killing to be something you would want to do as a hobby.

As I wrote, I was thinking more of shooting skills. As a boy, these were mastered on the farm with a .22. There is something inherently masculine about the thrill of the hunt, even though I have known a number of true ladies who enjoyed the sport. We all hunted, and there was something much more satisfying about eating something you harvested (rather than something you bought), whether plant or animal.

I don't really see the difference in hunting and eating meat. Somebody killed, and paying somebody else to do the "dirty" work might be a part of what I am talking about. Not trying to insult you, you probably never had the opportunities I had to hunt. Almost nobody does any more.

John

 

[luv2chill]

WOW, this thread has been an interesting read... it's so hard for me to relate to guys who feel like this.

I will say this though... we are very much products of our earliest childhood influences. My parents are both incredibly loving people. Yes, I got spanked when I was bad, but my dad never got into brawls with people nor demeaned my mom or other women. That is stuff I grew up seeing as wrong, and my logical mind tells me I'm right.

Putting aside history, where does it come into play that women are subservient to men? The answer is that it doesn't. Look at the animal world and you'll quite often see the opposite--female animals often hold the cards. Men have become the dominant figures because they are larger and stronger... that's all there is to it. But part of this wonderful human reasoning we've got is coming to the foregone conclusion that NO ONE IS SUPERIOR. Yes, some feminists have gone to the opposite extreme, and that's wrong too. There is evidence all around to support the conclusion that the correct answer lies in the balance between two extremes. That is where I put my trust.

There's no need for anyone to feel intimidated by anyone. But just because I don't use my fists (or guns or knives for that matter) doesn't mean that I live in fear of people or I'm a wimp. It simply means that I don't see that as the best solution to anything. And it certainly doesn't make me any less of a man. What makes me a man is not any particular thought or action, but testosterone and twig and berries.

When I see subservient women (or men for that matter) it just makes me think about how I could not handle a relationship like that. I don't want some woman who's going to do what I say just because I say it. That would be utterly sickening to me. Nor do I want a wife who will tell me what to do and when to do it.

Again I return to the golden mean. I think compromise is one of the greatest ideas ever, and it makes so much sense it SHOULD be instinct (sadly it isn't). If my wife wanted to go and work while I stayed home with the kids I would be open to that. I'm not of the school that says the father can't care for the kids as well as the mother. That's a bunch of bull$shit... it's an excuse for men that simply don't want to do it. I've seen plenty of terrible mothers out there... the father couldn't do any worse a job.

The woman I'm looking for is one who feels the same way as I do. That is to say that she sees a relationship as an EQUAL partnership, with both parties sharing the responsibilties... I don't see how anyone could logically feel otherwise. No one on this damned earth is superior to any other. I don't care if you're a US president, a brilliant mathematician, or some ordinary joe preparing TPS reports. Not to mention racial and gender equality.

What you call the "Age of the wimp" I see as evolution. Saying "you're not a REAL man unless you x y and z" is a copout. Gender is not nearly as important as people perceive it to be. Rigid gender roles only inhibit our evolution.

l2c

P.S. Anyone who says that life was much better in the 1950s would do well to consider that that statement is only true with the qualification "if you are a straight white male." Those days were like the dark ages in Europe--conformity to the point of absurdity. Leave it to Beaver is funny to watch only to see how fake it really was. The 1950s were all about trying to cover up the same problems we face today. The 1960s fortunately came and removed the wool from people's eyes. Covering up a problem doesn't make it go away. It's the truth.

 

[JohnnyReb]

Yah, you ain't a man till you've been in a fight and gone hunting

That was specifically in reference to marines, those who are the men of men, the tough hombre's who are "in the mud, the blood and the beer."

If these guys are tamed, what does that say about the rest of us?

If someone avoids confrontations at all costs because "you might get hurt", or doesn't hunt because you can't stand the idea of killing an animal for food, then they might very well be the sort I am talking about.

John

Edit: to make less insulting

 

[Hammer]

It happens to just about any great nation. The Roman Empire experienced similar problems and ended relying on newly conquered 'ctitizens' and auxilaries. Most of the Italian Romans had grown pretty wimpy.

 

[GrumpyMan]

Men are tired of being beat down by women. We are tired of it and won't take it anymore! Let's take away their right to vote on anything! Let's take away their pants and give them a dress with a corsette. Let's put them back in the kitchen where they belong! Get me a beer and go cook something woman, after you wash the clothes and iron my shorts, will be our new motto!!!!!
<====== Put's on flame retardant suit...............

 

[Spamela]

<< Yah, you ain't a man till you've been in a fight and gone hunting

That was specifically in reference to marines, those who are the men of men, the tough hombre's who are "in the mud, the blood and the beer."

If these guys are tamed, what does that say about the rest of us?

If someone avoids confrontations at all costs because "you might get hurt", or doesn't hunt because you can't stand the idea of killing an animal for food, then they might very well be the sort I am talking about.

John

Edit: to make less insulting >>



why would the marines want people who don't have self-control?

 

[luv2chill]

<< Men are tired of being beat down by women. We are tired of it and won't take it anymore! Let's take away their right to vote on anything! Let's take away their pants and give them a dress with a corsette. Let's put them back in the kitchen where they belong! Get me a beer and go cook something woman, after you wash the clothes and iron my shorts, will be our new motto!!!!!
<====== Put's on flame retardant suit............... >>

Unless that was an attempt at sarcasm, then that is exacly the wrong attitude to have. Why must you swing to the opposite extreme (which is totally unrealistic) instead of recognizing that you can both compromise and be happy. I mean I know it's difficult, but if you think about it it's the only right way.

Look at some of these muslim countries you all call "barbaric" and "uncivilized". Women are so oppressed there that they've got to be completely covered and have to walk behind the men. That is what we're trying to get away from, not return to. Enlightenment, progress, evolution... it's all the same thing.

Seriously guys... use your noggins!!! Think about what you're saying. Can you honestly justify women being inferior to men? If so, list off the reasons--I'm all ears.

l2c

 

[ratkil]

That was specifically in reference to marines, those who are the men of men, the tough hombre's who are "in the mud, the blood and the beer."
Oh, so you are saying the masses of unthinking blue collar boneheads joining the marines don't seem as unthinking blue collar as they once were? ;-)

I hope you don't buy into the mud blood and beer saying and were just trying to make a point, most marines are over testosteroned boys who are mostly braggart and bluff........

 

[TuffGirl]

I feel sorry for you MichaelD that you are so jaded. I realize you have had awful experiences with women to have this outlook, but take heart that not all women are like you describe. Case in point, I've been through several "amicable breakups" myself, and I'm on civil to friendly terms with most of my exes.

As for the fifties, here's an idea of the era you miss so much...

text


~EDIT~

Just want to add that I really like and agree with Luv2Chill's comments. They're so respectful, thoughtful, and level-headed... why is he not Elite yet?? Just wondering. I think he should be.

 

[JohnnyReb]

why would the marines want people who don't have self-control?

I hope you don't buy into the mud blood and beer saying and were just trying to make a point, most marines are over testosteroned boys who are mostly braggart and bluff........

Yah, you ain't a man till you've been in a fight and gone hunting

If those are your only, or major, basis for someone being a wimp or not you are misguided. Maybe what you meant to say is that the number of A$$holes seems to be dwindling, though from my observation that number is still plenty high also.

 

[GrumpyMan]

<<

<< Men are tired of being beat down by women. We are tired of it and won't take it anymore! Let's take away their right to vote on anything! Let's take away their pants and give them a dress with a corsette. Let's put them back in the kitchen where they belong! Get me a beer and go cook something woman, after you wash the clothes and iron my shorts, will be our new motto!!!!! <====== Put's on flame retardant suit............... >>

Unless that was an attempt at sarcasm, then that is exacly the wrong attitude to have. Why must you swing to the opposite extreme (which is totally unrealistic) instead of recognizing that you can both compromise and be happy. I mean I know it's difficult, but if you think about it it's the only right way. Look at some of these muslim countries you all call "barbaric" and "uncivilized". Women are so oppressed there that they've got to be completely covered and have to walk behind the men. That is what we're trying to get away from, not return to. Enlightenment, progress, evolution... it's all the same thing. Seriously guys... use your noggins!!! Think about what you're saying. Can you honestly justify women being inferior to men? If so, list off the reasons--I'm all ears. l2c >>



I was just kidding, lighten up man. I'm outa here. :frown:

 

[Geekbabe]

I think one reason people glamorise the 1950's is because life seemed so secure and so safe, everybody had their roles neatly scripted out for them, do X,Yand Z and you'll have your nice,secure job for life. The problem with scriots though is that real life sometimes gets in the way and they don't allow for any sort of deviation from the norm.


I wanted to take wood and metal shop in high school and then transfer to auto tech at the Voc.. well it just wasn't done.. gasp, you're a girl, you need to take home ec and if you aren't college bound typing and shorthand.I'm personallty glad I've lived long enough to see things change in that regard. Wanting the freedom to pursue my talents and call my owqn shots in this life doesn't mean I wish to geld any man,nor does it mean that I don't respect men in general or have real love and concern for those in my personal life.

 

[vi edit]

Gender roles are baaaad mmmmmmkay?

 

[ratkil]

If those are your only, or major, basis for someone being a wimp or not you are misguided. Maybe what you meant to say is that the number of A$$holes seems to be dwindling, though from my observation that number is still plenty high also.
Hey, I just reread that, I hope you didn't think I was refering to anyone here with that reference to there still being a lot of aholes, I was just referring to in general, I still see a lot of macho acting jerks around. I just don't see the corelation between those who talk a big talk and "men's men", usually it's the opposite. It's the quite ones who are still strong in their own way that I see as more of Men's men.

 

[arigato]

<< I feel sorry for you MichaelD that you are so jaded. I realize you have had awful experiences with women to have this outlook, but take heart that not all women are like you describe. Case in point, I've been through several "amicable breakups" myself, and I'm on civil to friendly terms with most of my exes.

As for the fifties, here's an idea of the era you miss so much...

text


~EDIT~

Just want to add that I really like and agree with Luv2Chill's comments. They're so respectful, thoughtful, and level-headed... why is he not Elite yet?? Just wondering. I think he should be. >>




I also agree with luv2chill, he said it better than I could. I find it hard to believe that people think there should still be gender roles and stereotypes. And to echo klee58's statement, I have also had amicable breakups and in fact my best friend is someone that I dated for several years. Not all women are vindictive and out to get every man they meet.

 

[kami]

Interesting thread...

I don't agree that a guy needs to have been hunting (or even shot a gun) and got into a fist fight to be considered a man. Maybe if I lived 50 years ago I would think this, but times have changed. I do agree that the 50s seems like quite a nice time to be living though, just from stories and things that have been told to me by my parents, uncles/aunts, and grandparents. It seemed like everyone was so happy back then and everything just worked out right. They all have so many good memories. In contrast, living today seems tougher from what I've heard. Half of marriages end in divorce, jobs rarely have good security in them, kids and teenagers are a wreck all around (look how many smoke, do drugs, and commit violent crimes nowadays), and it just goes on and on. I think it's because life is just now more complicated.

Did the women enjoy their "roles" back then in the 50s? From how my grandmother speaks, yes she did...she has many fond memories. They had a big family and nothing ever went wrong. Same thing for many others I know. Since I'm a child of the 80s and 90s I don't believe or pracitice any of this. I'm not a conservatist... I'm all about gender equality and that stuff and don't treat my girlfriend like she has certain duties, but I still wonder....

 

[Martin]

MichaelID, attitudes like your led to the 60s. The 50s were probably great if you were white, christian and conformist, but many people don't like being told what to do and when to do it.


Its true, sometimes feminism does go over the top sometimes, and a lot of kids are complete morons, but your "solution" isn't the right one.

 

[BeauJangles]

<< Go read the book "The War Against Boys : How Misguided Feminism Is Harming Our Young Men"

You'll see exactly what men/boys are being molded into, it's rather pathetic. >>



That's a damn good book.

 

[gopunk]

I don't really see the difference in hunting and eating meat. Somebody killed, and paying somebody else to do the "dirty" work might be a part of what I am talking about. Not trying to insult you, you probably never had the opportunities I had to hunt. Almost nobody does any more.

none taken, but i honestly would not take the opportunity to hunt like you did, even if i was given it. i am grateful that there are those who will do the dirty work for me, because i would probably not eat meat if i had to do it myself.

the difference between hunting and eating meat is that you don't kill the animal yourself. i don't think i could kill something without hating it... and there's not much reason to hate some animal that's never done anything to you.

 

[AndrewR]

For the people who don't agree with MichaelD's sentiments, if not his exact opinions, then I wonder about your blindness. It amazes me that there are some people out there who cannot accept that men and women are and always will be different. Forcing behavior on one half (men) because of a backlash against historic inequality is no less reprehensible than that historic inequality. Men are men, whether NOW and similar groups wish to admit it, and the "wussification of America" (if anyone saw the report last night on the attempts to ban dodge ball in public schools) is rendering men into women. Confrontation and competition have always been "male" traits literally since the dawn of time. Such competition has fostered PROGRESS -- where would we be today if able scientists who came before didn't earnestly strive to come up with a viable commercial electric lightbulb? What about the endless competition for automotive engineering?

It seems that the trend is to eliminate anything which might result in someone being "2nd place". Everyone has to be a winner, and "nurturing" growth is the only way to foster our children into adults, notwithstanding that life deals hard lessons for which we need to prepare our children. To answer the question above "Could the current generation fight WWII?", my answer is that I seriously doubt it. While I think there is a good undercurrent of strong willed people who would sacrifice their lives and their livelihoods to support such an effort, too many people are obsessed with themselves and their petty, insignificant existences to actually relinquish their creature comforts for such a noble effort. Even today, we see the revolting people who do not support a war on terror, a war which has already cost thousands of lives here and abroad and which will only claim more if left unchecked. Rome fell when they became weak, and I daresay that the U.S. hegemony will fall if the trend continues.

To counter this trend, however, we need the courage of our convictions and the courage to stand up to the immense absurdity which we face, such as this growing ban on the game of dodge ball. Someone might get hurt? Some kid loses self-esteem? Some kid feels anxious? GOOD. Let them learn these lessons now so that later in life they will have some experience dealing with them. We must counter garbage like this and point out the absolute foolishness of these "correct" opinions.

My view doesn't just encompass ranting and raving about the inequities facing us today, however. The largest part of the problem comes from men, not from women. We are ALLOWING all of this to happen. We are sons, fathers, brothers, and uncles. We have a DUTY to be men because no one else is taking that position -- it's merely disappearing. Let's reclaim the notion of taking responsibility instead of blaming other people for our problems. Take responsibility and do something about it -- that's my challenge and my lifelong goal.

 

[PlatinumGold]

AndrewR

i agree w/ you 100%.

Men have by and large been the TRAILBREAKERS, THE ADVENTURERS.

Women by and large have been NURTURERS and ADMINISTRATERS.

that's why in todays society, women could actually take end up being predominant, because women are better at managing businesses then men are.

Men are better at starting them, but not managing them.

the whole idea that ANY KIND OF GENERALIZATION is bad is REDICULOUS. We as people GENERALIZE. that's part of the LEARNING PROCESS. W/O generalizations EDUCATION would be IMPOSSIBLE.

so yes, this post is FULL of GENERALIZATIONS. BUT THEY ARE ALSO TRUE, OBSERVABLE and REPEATABLE.