AGP/PCI-e argument

[imported_Doughboy]

Personally, I'd like to see AGP cards produced until AGP can't keep up with PCI-E (show me the benchmark!). It seems that vid card makers jumped the gun when making the switch to PCI-e. I don't think the "extra bandwidth" is needed at this point (Don't make me spend money on upgrades that yield 0% performance gain). I haven't seen benchmarks showing how AGP & PCI-E versions of the same card are vastly different. I'm disappointed in the fact that nVidia is basically forcing the transition to PCI-e by not suppling cards for a mature and still very viable market (AGP users). This does not make sense to me, unless vid card makers benefit from the purchase of PCI-E motherboards (interesting how eVGA is making MBs now). It seems that the basis for the AGP/PCI-e argument is that with each generation of new technology there is some level of improvement. Example: each new generation of CPUs brings faster speed and better perfomance, having to buy another motherboard to get this speed is an unfortunate necessity, but with mild hesitation we agree that it's worth it and make the switch. AGP seems to be different, I'm aware of no real reason that the 7800 GPU can't be supported by AGP. Most agree that the AGP bus isn't saturated yet - maybe I'm wrong, but I'd bet money that even if there was a small perfomance hit that AGP users would still buy the AGP version, just so they wouldn't have to spend the money to buy a whole new system (I know I would). I can't understand why nVidia won't supply this market, but I think the answer is Motherboards. nVidia has 0% market share for Intel based AGP Motherboards, thus no motivation to make AGP vid cards. Not to mention they benifit again by forcing AMD users to go with nForce 4 boards. Mark my words. There won't be an AGP version of any nVidia 7800 cards until ATI starts producing AGP cards with the R520. Their pressuring the market for motherboard upgrades, to squeeze every bit of cha-ching out of enthusiasts. It just feels dirty & wrong, using their advantage in the vid card marketplace... which is their right, but I can't help but feel used, in an innocent, by-stander kind of way. This is yet another example of how competition is good for the consumer. Thank god for AMD & Intel. Now, to work on Microsoft... which I'm convinced is what the Intel/Apple deal is really about (bringing Apple's OS to mainstream). That's another story.

 

[imported_Kensai]

My Dual 7800GTX >> Your AGP.

 

[rbV5]

ATI's new motherboard chipsets are PCIe, are they forcing the market by not offering new AGP chipsets?

 

[JonnyBlaze]

why wait untill agp cant keep up? then you gotta change everyone over at the last second?? they start now and it will never become an issue except for the people who refuse to upgrade.

im still using agp but my next card will be pcie.

 

[biostud]

expenisve and complicated to keep both in the long run.

 

[imported_Doughboy]

Dual Card vs. Single card... apples and oranges. I'm talking about apples and apples.
Price/performance ratio is still favoring single card rigs.
2 vid cards do not equal 2x performance.

 

[Tanclearas]

The majority of Nvidia's and ATI's sales do not come from add-in cards for people with old systems. Their largest sales are OEM. These are for use in building new PC's. Tell me honestly, if you were buying a new PC, would you buy one with AGP or PCIe? If you say AGP, you are a liar. Or perhaps just crazy.

We all get it. You are happy with your AGP system. Fine. Just STFU already. Buy a PCIe system when you're ready. Just don't bitch about companies making good business decisions that don't happen to mesh with your idea of what they should do.

 

[imported_Kensai]

Originally posted by: Doughboy
Dual Card vs. Single card... apples and oranges. I'm talking about apples and apples.
Price/performance ratio is still favoring single card rigs.
2 vid cards do not equal 2x performance.

We're talking about AGP vs. PCI-E specs, not video cards... At least that's what your topic title suggests.

 

[imported_Doughboy]

Originally posted by: biostud
expenisve and complicated to keep both in the long run.

I agree

 

[bjc112]

Originally posted by: Kensai
My Dual 7800GTX >> Your AGP.

Well obviously, but then again, I have an AGP system that will demolish many with PCI-E systems ( aside from SLI )

If ATI gives me one more high end release, I'll be happy.

 

[bjc112]

Originally posted by: Tanclearas
The majority of Nvidia's and ATI's sales do not come from add-in cards for people with old systems. Their largest sales are OEM. These are for use in building new PC's. Tell me honestly, if you were buying a new PC, would you buy one with AGP or PCIe? If you say AGP, you are a liar. Or perhaps just crazy.

We all get it. You are happy with your AGP system. Fine. Just STFU already. Buy a PCIe system when you're ready. Just don't bitch about companies making good business decisions that don't happen to mesh with your idea of what they should do.

And obviously everyone buying a NEW system would get PCI-E, but that doesn't mean there isnt a large portion of enthusisats with AGP.

Why should I have to drop my Neo2 ( which kicks ass ) for a PCI-E board, to support a PCI-E card that doesn't benefit me ( CURRENTLY )??


And why would I even consider upgrading my board? Sh!t, if I need extra performance I'll pop a X2 in there and be set for quite a bit longer.

No reason to completely SHUN AGP owners..

At least PATA -> SATA has been a transisition.

 

[imported_Kensai]

Originally posted by: bjc112

Originally posted by: Kensai
My Dual 7800GTX >> Your AGP.

Well obviously, but then again, I have an AGP system that will demolish many with PCI-E systems ( aside from SLI )

If ATI gives me one more high end release, I'll be happy.

I thought this was all about the AGP and PCI-E spec?
Currently games just strain the AGP 4X spec.. Technically there's no need for the AGP 8X spec. Someline along the lines of AGP 6X or the speed equivilent would've suited most systems just fine.

But for those going for the ultimate gaming system or largest e-penis, PCI-E is needed. For SLI, the 7800GTX (until the AGP version is released).

Professionals also love PCI-E for the Quadro FX4400 and for ultra extreme professionals, they'll have a Quadro FX4400 SLI.. 1024MB GDDR3 video memory!

 

[imported_Doughboy]

For the record I ordered my PCI-e MB and Vid card last night (eVGA 7800GTX KO). I'm not trying to make this a bitch session about opposing change and trying keep AGP forever. I completely enbrace change, when it actually has benifits. For those who don't require or can't afford SLI or Crossfire, the upgrade to PCI-e is difficult to swallow considering the performance gain is zero right now. I get that PCI-e is the future, no problem, but I don't understand why card makers don't continue to support AGP until the platform is dead. they still stand to make a lot of money off of us poor guys with last years AGP systems. The last time I checked my 3.8GHz Northwood was no slouch considering that the fastest CPU you can buy is also running at 3.8GHz (P4 570 & 670). If the AGP bus was maxed out, I'd understand. If it wasn't for the fact that card makers decided to stop supporting the PC that cost me Thousands of $$$, I'd still be sitting pretty... yeah, I guess I'm a little upset. I can still buy parts for a '65 mustang, but not a '04 PC. dirty, rotten PC industry.:Q

The bottom line is nVidia says "there will be no more AGP cards", but if ATI does, just watch 'em cough up a few. That's really what bothers me. If they stand by their word and really don't make AGPs, I can accept the change. But I feel like their holding back... time will tell.

 

[Spoonbender]

I get that PCI-e is the future, no problem, but I don't understand why card makers don't continue to support AGP until the platform is dead

How can it ever die if they support it "until it dies"?
Anyway, it's obviously cheaper for them to focus on one platform. Why does that surprise you? They've obviously decided that at the high-end range, *most* people either have PCI-E already, or are willing to shift to it, which means that an AGP version wouldn't boost sales enough to compensate for the extra expenses (And for slowing down their mobo sales )

So why are people whining so much about this? Last I checked, no one were forcing people to upgrade. You can actually keep using your AGP card as long as you like.

If you want advantages of the PCI-E bus, then how about this?
- It allows you to use multiple vid cards (Not just SLI, but for some workstations you might want to have a bunch of monitors connected a bunch of vid cards. Hard to do that with *one* AGP slot.)
- It replaces the PCI bus, which *is* saturated already, and on that front, the upgrade provides some very clear performance benefits.
- Room to grow. Sure, a 7800 GTX might not use up more bandwidth than AGP can provide, but what when I upgrade to a Geforce 9800 (Err, they probably won't use that number, but what the hell) in two years time? By then, it'll be nice to already have a PCI-E mobo, so you dont need to replace that, won't it?
- I believe I've read that it's simpler to implement on the motherboards. Lower production costs always seem attractive to hardware manufacturers.

But you're right, if you look solely at the graphics card's performance, then there's no advantage in PCI-E. That doesn't mean it's a pointless upgrade though. Several other advantages, for you and for the hardware manufacturers.

 

[Hacp]

There are PCI cards for multiple monitors Also, what if you have a Venice overclocked to 3.0 GHZ but can't upgrade to the 7800GTX. Your stuck with a crappy X850XTPE that won't play Doom3 at higher than 16x12 resolutions 4X AA well.

Just a note, if Nvidia does come up with a 7800GTX AGP and it costs around 100 dollars more than the PCI-E, then I would suggest getting the PCI-E and buying a new mobo .

 

[Creig]

Originally posted by: Hacp
There are PCI cards for multiple monitors Also, what if you have a Venice overclocked to 3.0 GHZ but can't upgrade to the 7800GTX. Your stuck with a crappy X850XTPE that won't play Doom3 at higher than 16x12 resolutions 4X AA well.

I doubt the fastest card of the previous generation can realistically be described as "crappy" just yet.

 

[Hacp]

Well what if you want to run your games in 2048/1536 4x AA? There is no option besides the 7800GTX right now....

 

[coomar]

I have trouble seeing why for a 500 dollar videocard, you can't spend 100 dollars on a motherboard

you need a high-end system for it to make sense to buy a gtx, if its bottlenecks significantly below 2.0 ghz on an a64, your going to need a 4.0ghz p4 to meet the bare minimum of the card

or they could make an agp version and people would complain that they see no improvement

 

[Jaskalas]

Who cares which is better? If you're going to upgrade or replace a PC, you might as well look towards what you needed to run future video cards. If you're not doing this, then you should not care.

Arguing over which is better is pointless, as you will be using it in the future until it is replaced by the next thing.

 

[Killrose]

I'm going to run my BartonM @2.4gig and my AGP 6800Ultra into the ground before I change-up, I can overclock both a bit more if I have to, but my comp plays everything now just fine as far as i'm concerend.

That fact that you can't get a 7800 in AGP flavor really gives you no choice if your after the Highest end parts anyway's, so it's a moot point as far as the AGP vs PCI-e aurgument goes IMHO.

 

[rbV5]

- It replaces the PCI bus, which *is* saturated already, and on that front, the upgrade provides some very clear performance benefits

It didn't replace them on my PCIe rig, it only replaced the AGP port, and then, off course, the upgrade path would have to include some actual cards that actually use the PCIe bus for the performance gains....which I've seen very very few of.

 

[Continuity28]

Originally posted by: rbV5

- It replaces the PCI bus, which *is* saturated already, and on that front, the upgrade provides some very clear performance benefits

It didn't replace them on my PCIe rig, it only replaced the AGP port, and then, off course, the upgrade path would have to include some actual cards that actually use the PCIe bus for the performance gains....which I've seen very very few of.

PCI-Express is meant to replace both AGP and PCI. Most motherboards sold with PCI-Express have at least one x1 slot (which is double that of PCI) and usually an x4 slot as well (8 times PCI). The reason PCI slots are still on your motherboard is because this is a transition, in the future PCI won't be on any motherboard just like ISA slots are gone now. ISA eventually gave way to PCI just like PCI/AGP will give way to PCI-Express. And on it goes...

PCI slots still exist because the companies that make PCI cards haven't switched yet for the most part. In the case of gigabit ethernet and RAID, PCI is over saturated and PCI-Express is needed. In the case of sound cards, firewire, and other such PCI add-in cards, PCI-Express isn't necessary yet. The biggest problem with PCI was its parallel nature, not really the bandwidth provided. With enough add-in cards, even if you didn't have any resource hogs like RAID cards or gigabit ethernet, you could still saturate the PCI bus, whereas you'll never saturate the PCI-Express unless your device needs more bandwidth than it can provide.

 

[rbV5]

PCI-Express is meant to replace both AGP and PCI. Most motherboards sold with PCI-Express have at least one x1 slot

Which is basically useless due to the lack of PCIe cards. Its basically a graphics port option at this point I guess. I do like the fact that there are decent PCIe platforms with nice feature sets....SLI keeps interest up even if you don't go that route, and crossfire makes thing a little more interesting. I guess I'll be more excited when I see some other PCIe solutions available like sound cards and TV tuners

 

[n7]

I blame Intel, since it really is their fault for pushing this upon us...

 

[Fenuxx]

Well, I think that another point to be brought up is the transition from PCI to AGP. At that point, the PCI bus WAS saturated and there were still high-end cards made for BOTH PCI and AGP (TNT2 is a good example, as it was introduced AFTER the AGP bus was introduced). I don't see a reason that, due to the fact that AGP is not yet saturated, why NVIDIA and ATI can't offer their high-end cards in BOTH AGP and PCI-E forms. Its all marketing. Why? BECAUSE THERE IS NO REASON THAT THEY CANT BE OFFERED IN BOTH FORMS!!!

I could see them keeping the ultra-high-end parts (such as 7800GTX) in PCI-E only, and have the high-end parts (such as 7800GT) in PCI-E and AGP forms, that would give AGP users more options, while keeping the ultra-enthusiasts parts to their precious PCI-E bus.