AMD still losing money

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pm

Elite Member Mobile Devices
Jan 25, 2000
7,419
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Originally posted by: Matthias99
It's tough to blame AMD management for a sucky flash memory market. Apple picked a good time to get into consumer electronics; whether this was brilliant foresight or just dumb luck is hard to say.
Given where Apple was when Steve J. took the reins again, I would say that it's a fair bit more than "dumb luck". And it's not merely good timing - it was also excellent execution. There were plenty of MP3 players before the iPod, and there were plenty of music download sites before iTunes. Apple just did it better than the others - or at the minimum more "hip" than the others. And Steve seems to have a knack at this, so I give him full credit for more than luck in this case.
 

ViRGE

Elite Member, Moderator Emeritus
Oct 9, 1999
31,516
167
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Originally posted by: Matthias99
Originally posted by: grant2
Originally posted by: corkygAMD's debt load is huge - and their profits are marginal because they literally have bought market share from Intel.

AMD's market share is the same ~20% it's been for 5 years now.

Yes, but:

1) The CPU market is a LOT bigger than it was five years ago. It's not like they're standing still; they've basically been pacing Intel.

2) They've gotten a significantly bigger cut of the server market then they used to have. High-end Opterons pummel Xeons pretty badly in some benchmarks, especially in 4-way setups.

3) They seem to have a pretty good lock on the enthusiast gaming/performance market at the moment. P4EE chips are *way* overpriced and still often lose to even a 3500+ in gaming benches. At an equivalent price, it's rarely even a contest. recent THG bench

Intel's beating them in volume and has more desktop OEM contracts, but is losing ground in a lot of areas. The fact that Dell even considered selling AMD-based systems (although it may have all just been a negotiating ploy) is telling.
Most importantly though, AMD isn't strictly a low-end chip supplier any more, their server gains have been matched with gains in high-end computing(where AMD is now the clearly favored company in benchmarks, not the near-stalemate it was with the Athlon vs. P3), and they've let Intel have a bit more of the low-end market with the Celerons and $400 Dell machines. They're still not a completely stable company, but they're making gains in spreading themselves out in all performance/cost segments, and this is going to pay off in the end.
 

Pariah

Elite Member
Apr 16, 2000
7,357
20
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(emphasis added)

They're making money on their CPUs and gaining sales. They lost $110 million on the flash memory division last quarter, which is why they posted a net loss.

So because they weren't CPU related, those losses don't count? I bet they do to investors and company executives. The health of the company factors in all divisions, not just one.

Home users will buy whatever sounds good and is put in front of them, unless the prices are way lower on something else (they're not different enough to make a difference at the low end). Like I said, Intel has a lot more desktop OEM contracts (and is still Dell's only CPU supplier), but is making inroads to some extent.

Corporate desktop buyers just want cheap, reliable machines. If AMD keeps beating them on price, they'll make progress here as well. People buying servers certainly do care about performance, and that's where AMD has actually started hurting Intel.

Enthusiast desktop buyers seem to care an awful lot about benchmarks, and price/performance on AMD is much better in this range as well. It's a smaller market, but with higher profit per chip, and AMD seems to have a big edge here at the moment.

Again, I said for MOST potential customers. I agree that enthusiast's are one group where performance is the primary factor, but if every enthusiast bought an AMD system, it would barely make a dent in market as they hardly make up even a small percentage of consumers let alone a majority.

I disagree that corporate people care about performance first and foremost. Few companies buy CPU's, they buy solutions. What's actually in the box that IBM or whoever provides is of little consequence. Despite AMD's gains, which are somewhat overblown since they started from nothing at all, Intel still owns the market.

"The only place they're being outmarketed is in the desktop OEM market, because most consumers know "Intel/Pentium/Celeron/Centrino" but not "AMD/Athlon". They just don't have the kind of advertising and marketing budget that Intel does, although I agree they could do a lot better."

Marketing encompasses much more than making a corny commercial with blue guys acting like idiots. It's about creating an image for the company, something Jobs has done a phenomenal job of with Apple since he retook over. There was a thread here recently about an article that stated that AMD is viewed as an unstable budget platform compared to Intel. This was true 5 years ago, though certainly not now. It's AMD's fault that they have done nothing to try and change the public's perception about this. This view does not only hurt home sales, but corporate as well. No boss (who is rarely the most technically inclined in the company) is going to want to buy unstable budget solutions from the also-ran even if the benchmarks are better for their company. AMD's awful support for the Athlon MP line, their first attempt at business users, certainly didn't instill any additional confidence in customers either.
 
Jun 14, 2003
10,442
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Originally posted by: minofifa
man, i don't understand economics at all...

i thought AMD would be doing well, considering all of the good stuff ye hear about it here. I never expected it to be ahead of intel or anything, but i never predicted a loss. is this a huge blow to AMD? should AMD users be worried?

I say good for mac, some competition for microsoft is probably a good thing.


trouble is the AMD marketing machine is about as strong as a gentle breeze. Intels is a F5 tornado

dont forget that alot of people not in the know, wont even consider AMD, coz they never heard of them before...their trust is with INTEL ,wether they have the better product or not. a quick walk round the PCworld here and most of the systems are P4 or Celeron, with a few Athlon based systems that never get a look in

also lots of companys, college's, schools etc buy from big computer makers like viglen and Dell

and these guys are Intel only....so id say even though intel arent as good as AMD in the performance stakes. the number of people with AMD systems doesnt come near the amount of intel systems out there

i know for a fact my old college jus ordered 500+ dell's 2 months before i left. all AMD is a big company like dell so they can get more chips out the door.

 

Matthias99

Diamond Member
Oct 7, 2003
8,808
0
0
Originally posted by: Pariah
(emphasis added)

They're making money on their CPUs and gaining sales. They lost $110 million on the flash memory division last quarter, which is why they posted a net loss.

So because they weren't CPU related, those losses don't count? I bet they do to investors and company executives. The health of the company factors in all divisions, not just one.

I didn't mean to imply they "don't count", but from what I've read the losses they took in Q105 were not really their fault -- the market is flooded right now and prices are terrible. I don't know how many (if any) flash memory manufacturers posted a profit in the last quarter, but I doubt it's a large number. It's unfair and misleading to discount the success of their CPU manufacturing division because market forces beyond their control hosed the memory profits.

I disagree that corporate people care about performance first and foremost. Few companies buy CPU's, they buy solutions. What's actually in the box that IBM or whoever provides is of little consequence.

It's true that they care about the whole package -- but in a lot of server situations, performance and price/performance on the hardware are an important part of that package. And right now, for a lot of applications, you can build a faster and/or cheaper server with Opteron processors than Xeon.

If you're buying a thousand desktops, which parts are in them is almost irrelevant, because they're all blazingly fast for office work -- service and support costs over the lifetime of the system will overshadow the relatively low price of the hardware (that whole TCO thing everyone likes to talk about).

Despite AMD's gains, which are somewhat overblown since they started from nothing at all, Intel still owns the market.

I'd say it's almost more impressive to go from "nothing" to having a small but noticeable (and growing) chunk of market share. It's very tough to push out entrenched systems unless you have a significant technical edge. They're still a minority in the market by *far* -- but considering how much bigger Intel is than AMD, they should be crushing them, and they're losing ground instead.

The only place they're being outmarketed is in the desktop OEM market, because most consumers know "Intel/Pentium/Celeron/Centrino" but not "AMD/Athlon". They just don't have the kind of advertising and marketing budget that Intel does, although I agree they could do a lot better.

Marketing encompasses much more than making a corny commercial with blue guys acting like idiots. It's about creating an image for the company, something Jobs has done a phenomenal job of with Apple since he retook over. There was a thread here recently about an article that stated that AMD is viewed as an unstable budget platform compared to Intel. This was true 5 years ago, though certainly not now. It's AMD's fault that they have done nothing to try and change the public's perception about this. This view does not only hurt home sales, but corporate as well. No boss (who is rarely the most technically inclined in the company) is going to want to buy unstable budget solutions from the also-ran even if the benchmarks are better for their company. AMD's awful support for the Athlon MP line, their first attempt at business users, certainly didn't instill any additional confidence in customers either.

I agree; they have not done much to change their 'unreliable' image (much of which was due to shoddy motherboards/chipsets a few generations back rather than issues with the CPUs themselves) or get their name out there and establish any sort of brand/image. And Intel does a much better job getting and holding OEM contracts (see, for example, Dell).

But if AMD continues their success in the server and enthusiast market and keeps pushing themselves as a solid OEM supplier, I think they'll start to see more success in both business and home desktops. Unless Intel can pull out some amazing technical improvements real fast and AMD can't match them.
 

corkyg

Elite Member | Peripherals
Super Moderator
Mar 4, 2000
27,370
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106
Originally posted by: grant2
AMD's market share is the same ~20% it's been for 5 years now.


Right! And they bought in - i.e., sold at a loss to get it. Profit trumps technology in the long run.

 

Hyperlite

Diamond Member
May 25, 2004
5,664
2
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Assume AMD dug up the funds to start a major advertising campaign...if they were successful, they'd have a tough time meeting demand. I think they are worried they might score a major contract or just tons of general market interest and not be able to keep up. If they scrape up the funds for advertising, they obviously won't be able to throw up a few new fab plants...its a tough situation.
 
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