American Cars vs. Imports

[postmortemIA]

Originally posted by: JLGatsby

Originally posted by: 91TTZ
Lexus is always among the first to incorporate new features into its cars, and they're consistently scoring in the top spot on the reliability tests. They are the most reliable brand, bar none. They are head and shoulders above BMW and Mercedes.

BMWs and Mercedes are on a different level than Lexus. Lexus is Japanese, hence the electronic perfect, but Mercedes and BMWs have more exotic engines, which is why they have more trouble.

Lexus doesn't even make anything with more than 400hp. They make cars for old ladies.

I think gays like them too

 

[fubar569]

Originally posted by: AdamK47 3DS
What do Americans know about making cars? I will never own an American car.

ignorance is bliss isn't it?

i'm not downing ALL OTHER car makes, but i'd rather support my own economy a bit rather than line the pockets of the next great german/italian/whatever car manufacturer. besides, we "stupid" americans know a fair bit more about automobiles than you think. Just remember, if it wasn't for Ransome Eli Olds and Henry Ford, your precious german auto assembly lines would never exist. They did pioneer that idea after all, and guess where They were from? that's right....the USA...

however, we all owe a thing or 2 to the french for once

The first car manufacturers in the world were French: Panhard & Levassor (1889) and Peugeot (1891).

didn't see that one coming did ya?

 

[fubar569]

Originally posted by: postmortemIA

Originally posted by: JLGatsby

Originally posted by: 91TTZ
Lexus is always among the first to incorporate new features into its cars, and they're consistently scoring in the top spot on the reliability tests. They are the most reliable brand, bar none. They are head and shoulders above BMW and Mercedes.

BMWs and Mercedes are on a different level than Lexus. Lexus is Japanese, hence the electronic perfect, but Mercedes and BMWs have more exotic engines, which is why they have more trouble.

Lexus doesn't even make anything with more than 400hp. They make cars for old ladies.

I think gays like them too

QFT! hahaha

 

[exdeath]

Originally posted by: JLGatsby

Originally posted by: 91TTZ
Lexus is always among the first to incorporate new features into its cars, and they're consistently scoring in the top spot on the reliability tests. They are the most reliable brand, bar none. They are head and shoulders above BMW and Mercedes.

BMWs and Mercedes are on a different level than Lexus. Lexus is Japanese, hence the electronic perfect, but Mercedes and BMWs have more exotic engines, which is why they have more trouble.

Lexus doesn't even make anything with more than 400hp. They make cars for old ladies.

Alright I'll bite... and to be clear we are talking about engines, not driving dynamics or anything about cars, just 'exotic engines'

Exotic engines? What are they using anti-mater? Is it because it looks like a big mysterious black box when you open the hood and assume it's some kind of fusion reactor? Nope, thats just a plastic cover. Last I looked they were the same internal combustion gasoline piston engine everyone else uses. They certainly aren't the most powerful engines and they are definately not the most reliable, according to their owners. The smoothest revving maybe, but thats the nature of the balanced harmonics of the I6 with the proper firing order, nothing particular to BMW as a brand name. Nothing exotic about it. (I bet you didn't even know thats why BMW is fond of the I6; probably assumed it was superior because BMW does it right?)

What things does BMW have in their engines that nobody else does? Variable cams? Everyone else has them. Did BMW come out with them first? Is it the 'I got a Playstation 3 without games one whole month before everyone else' mentality? FYI I make more torque at idle than any production BMW makes at WOT, and I have a completely flat torque curve from 2000 RPM all the way to WOT. All with an 'inferior' non-exotic Ford engine with a static valve train.

Direct injection is a new one. Thats something Subaru, Toyota/Lexus, VW, Mazda, and even GM are pioneering as far as I know (need verification). Maybe BMW has it too, but it looks like all major auto makers have some kind of direct injection engine out or arriving in 2006-2007. Exclusive? Exotic? No. Mercedes isn't even looking into direct injection at the moment.

Sounds to me like you subscribe to the stuck up snob mentality of "BMW/Mercedes is $$$ and therefore automatically better than everyone else" koolaid and feel you need to make things up to glorify and justify your subjective opinion.

I know deep down alot of BMW/Mercedes/Lexus owners I've run into envy my Cobra or any more powerful cars, and they could easily afford one, but sadly they want the BMW/Mercedes/Lexus image so they continue driving a car they are unsatisifed with so they can stick their nose in the air and look down on everyone else. Rather than buy a car with features they need or want, they look for features they deem that OTHER people would be envious of (ie: logos and badges on the trunk, TV screens well above the comfortable viewing angle of passengers but easily visible to following traffic, etc). I'm sure alot of them wanted a SUV when they first became trendy but didn't want to give up the BMW/Mercedes/Lexus image. God help us all when BMW/Mercedes/Lexus came out with SUVs

I have the mis-pleasure of knowing a aunt inlaw whos a stuck up snob who went and bought a brand new Lexus ES330. Word got around she was absolutely furious when we quietly got our 2006 Avalon after extensive waiting and research, as it was better in every category than any Lexus in her price range, especially her ES330. In particular she insisted we get something with good mileage and not focus on horsepower, because we were 'a young couple just starting out. Yet the Avalon has more horsepower AND better mileage than the Lexus, and cost less, and that drives her insane. Now heres the sad part, she is well off and could easily sell the Lexus and get the Avalon in a heartbeat if she wanted it so badly. However she wouldn't be caught dead in a mere Toyota, her being above anything that isn't a BMW/Mercedes/Lexus, so she is stuck with her 'inferior' Lexus. She is constantly touting features of her Lexus that other cars don't have like 'high definition' headlights, etc. But she doesn't talk about power or mileage anymore.

:laugh:

BTW her personal suggestion was that we get a cheap Neon just after she bought her Lexus. Shoulda got a stage 3 SRT-4 she would have loved that lol.

 

[exdeath]

Originally posted by: fubar569
i envy you greatly sir...i just hope that my 84 vette will no longer be hassled by terminators once the Mark IV 427 Big Block swap is done. something about a 326/334 cammed 12.5:1 compression forged big block with a 200hp punch of giggle gas that just makes me get a stiffy...

for haters or non-believers: http://forums.corvetteforum.com/showthread.php?t=1349539

thats the walkthrough/worklog for the project so far...and YES it is a long time in the making...a LONG ASS TIME...but kinda sucks when money gets tight. then again i'd love to see more HP for 10k when im done

Was checking out your link and saw that 7 second C4 with the twin turbo.

 

[exdeath]

Originally posted by: fubar569

Originally posted by: AdamK47 3DS
What do Americans know about making cars? I will never own an American car.

ignorance is bliss isn't it?

i'm not downing ALL OTHER car makes, but i'd rather support my own economy a bit rather than line the pockets of the next great german/italian/whatever car manufacturer. besides, we "stupid" americans know a fair bit more about automobiles than you think. Just remember, if it wasn't for Ransome Eli Olds and Henry Ford, your precious german auto assembly lines would never exist. They did pioneer that idea after all, and guess where They were from? that's right....the USA...

however, we all owe a thing or 2 to the french for once

The first car manufacturers in the world were French: Panhard & Levassor (1889) and Peugeot (1891).

didn't see that one coming did ya?

I hear that. I wanted a Boxster S for the longest time, and after the whole 9/11 thing I kinda felt guilty... then 2003 came along and my guilt was resolved

 

[fubar569]

Originally posted by: exdeath

Originally posted by: fubar569
i envy you greatly sir...i just hope that my 84 vette will no longer be hassled by terminators once the Mark IV 427 Big Block swap is done. something about a 326/334 cammed 12.5:1 compression forged big block with a 200hp punch of giggle gas that just makes me get a stiffy...

for haters or non-believers: http://forums.corvetteforum.com/showthread.php?t=1349539

thats the walkthrough/worklog for the project so far...and YES it is a long time in the making...a LONG ASS TIME...but kinda sucks when money gets tight. then again i'd love to see more HP for 10k when im done

Was checking out your link and saw that 7 second C4 with the twin turbo.

my first thought when Ski posted that was "i want it"

Ski himself has a 434cid small block self built and tuned. the car runs low low 10's all day and he can drive it wherever he needs to. this is on the stock D44 IRS

 

[AdamK47]

Originally posted by: exdeath

Originally posted by: JLGatsby

Originally posted by: 91TTZ
Lexus is always among the first to incorporate new features into its cars, and they're consistently scoring in the top spot on the reliability tests. They are the most reliable brand, bar none. They are head and shoulders above BMW and Mercedes.

BMWs and Mercedes are on a different level than Lexus. Lexus is Japanese, hence the electronic perfect, but Mercedes and BMWs have more exotic engines, which is why they have more trouble.

Lexus doesn't even make anything with more than 400hp. They make cars for old ladies.

Alright I'll bite... and to be clear we are talking about engines, not driving dynamics or anything about cars, just 'exotic engines'

Exotic engines? What are they using anti-mater? Is it because it looks like a big mysterious black box when you open the hood and assume it's some kind of fusion reactor? Nope, thats just a plastic cover. Last I looked they were the same internal combustion gasoline piston engine everyone else uses. They certainly aren't the most powerful engines and they are definately not the most reliable, according to their owners. The smoothest revving maybe, but thats the nature of the balanced harmonics of the I6 with the proper firing order, nothing particular to BMW as a brand name. Nothing exotic about it. (I bet you didn't even know thats why BMW is fond of the I6; probably assumed it was superior because BMW does it right?)

What things does BMW have in their engines that nobody else does? Variable cams? Everyone else has them. Did BMW come out with them first? Is it the 'I got a Playstation 3 without games one whole month before everyone else' mentality? FYI I make more torque at idle than any production BMW makes at WOT, and I have a completely flat torque curve from 2000 RPM all the way to WOT. All with an 'inferior' non-exotic Ford engine with a static valve train.

Direct injection is a new one. Thats something Subaru, Toyota/Lexus, VW, Mazda, and even GM are pioneering as far as I know (need verification). Maybe BMW has it too, but it looks like all major auto makers have some kind of direct injection engine out or arriving in 2006-2007. Exclusive? Exotic? No. Mercedes isn't even looking into direct injection at the moment.

Sounds to me like you subscribe to the stuck up snob mentality of "BMW/Mercedes is $$$ and therefore automatically better than everyone else" koolaid and feel you need to make things up to glorify and justify your subjective opinion.

I know deep down alot of BMW/Mercedes/Lexus owners I've run into envy my Cobra or any more powerful cars, and they could easily afford one, but sadly they want the BMW/Mercedes/Lexus image so they continue driving a car they are unsatisifed with so they can stick their nose in the air and look down on everyone else. Rather than buy a car with features they need or want, they look for features they deem that OTHER people would be envious of (ie: logos and badges on the trunk, TV screens well above the comfortable viewing angle of passengers but easily visible to following traffic, etc). I'm sure alot of them wanted a SUV when they first became trendy but didn't want to give up the BMW/Mercedes/Lexus image. God help us all when BMW/Mercedes/Lexus came out with SUVs

I have the mis-pleasure of knowing a aunt inlaw whos a stuck up snob who went and bought a brand new Lexus ES330. Word got around she was absolutely furious when we quietly got our 2006 Avalon after extensive waiting and research, as it was better in every category than any Lexus in her price range, especially her ES330. In particular she insisted we get something with good mileage and not focus on horsepower, because we were 'a young couple just starting out. Yet the Avalon has more horsepower AND better mileage than the Lexus, and cost less, and that drives her insane. Now heres the sad part, she is well off and could easily sell the Lexus and get the Avalon in a heartbeat if she wanted it so badly. However she wouldn't be caught dead in a mere Toyota, her being above anything that isn't a BMW/Mercedes/Lexus, so she is stuck with her 'inferior' Lexus. She is constantly touting features of her Lexus that other cars don't have like 'high definition' headlights, etc. But she doesn't talk about power or mileage anymore.

:laugh:

BTW her personal suggestion was that we get a cheap Neon just after she bought her Lexus. Shoulda got a stage 3 SRT-4 she would have loved that lol.

Your reply is far longer than what JLGatsby deserves. He's simply doing what his name implies.

 

[LS20]

hi, i argue on the internet about cars i dont have

 

[JLGatsby]

Originally posted by: exdeath
Exotic engines? What are they using anti-mater? Is it because it looks like a big mysterious black box when you open the hood and assume it's some kind of fusion reactor? Nope, thats just a plastic cover.

When I say more exotic engines, I mean more highly tuned and powerful engines.

Lexus doesn't even have a tuning division, unlike BMW or Mercedes.

Lexus has never made a V12, V10, or anything really powerful at all. So much of Mercedes' time is spent developing more "exotic" and poweful engines, while Lexus spends all of it's time on more practical engines, which is why you see the difference.

And Lexus sells more practical cars. BMW and Mercedes are more exotic.

 

[exdeath]

Originally posted by: fubar569

Originally posted by: exdeath

Originally posted by: fubar569
i envy you greatly sir...i just hope that my 84 vette will no longer be hassled by terminators once the Mark IV 427 Big Block swap is done. something about a 326/334 cammed 12.5:1 compression forged big block with a 200hp punch of giggle gas that just makes me get a stiffy...

for haters or non-believers: http://forums.corvetteforum.com/showthread.php?t=1349539

thats the walkthrough/worklog for the project so far...and YES it is a long time in the making...a LONG ASS TIME...but kinda sucks when money gets tight. then again i'd love to see more HP for 10k when im done

Was checking out your link and saw that 7 second C4 with the twin turbo.

my first thought when Ski posted that was "i want it"

Ski himself has a 434cid small block self built and tuned. the car runs low low 10's all day and he can drive it wherever he needs to. this is on the stock D44 IRS

Yay for 10s street cars.

Yeah IRS is nice. Alot of people replace the IRS in the Cobra's with solid rears to lose weight and as a quick easy way to make it stronger. You can beef up a IRS and make it do wheel stands all day long, it just costs a little more and takes a bit of effort. It's just that a run of the mill average solid axle is stronger than the stock IRS, its not that the stock IRS can't be built up to be as strong or stronger.

 

[AdamK47]

Originally posted by: LS20
hi, i argue on the internet about cars i dont have

Do go on about how your Zippy Fastmobile is better than the Frumpy Blingmopomposity Cruiser, Mr. Know-it-all.

 

[LS20]

Originally posted by: AdamK47 3DS


Do go on about how your Zippy Fastmobile is better than the Frumpy Blingmopomposity Cruiser, Mr. Know-it-all.

my cousin's zippy fastmobile dyno'ed 357HP on only 8lb of boost and in 91* ambient temp. thats wayyy above sea level. the blingmopomposity is comfy but consumer reports rated it horrible in reliability. have you read ANY jd powers study at all? my aunt has 3 automobiles from the Frumpy company and they have all had shoddy , unreliable electronics.

now , i am going to reiterate my point in BOLD CAPITALIZED LETTERS so you and other people on the internet will care about, and take to heart, my personal opinions

 

[AdamK47]

Originally posted by: LS20

Originally posted by: AdamK47 3DS


Do go on about how your Zippy Fastmobile is better than the Frumpy Blingmopomposity Cruiser, Mr. Know-it-all.

my cousin's zippy fastmobile dyno'ed 357HP on only 8lb of boost and in 91* ambient temp. thats wayyy above sea level. the blingmopomposity is comfy but consumer reports rated it horrible in reliability. have you read ANY jd powers study at all? my aunt has 3 automobiles from the Frumpy company and they have all had shoddy , unreliable electronics.

now , i am going to reiterate my point in BOLD CAPITALIZED LETTERS so you and other people on the internet will care about, and take to heart, my personal opinions

Who cares if his Zippy Fastmobile has 375HP if he can only use it in a straight line? I'm willing to bet if he took it around a corner the minimal G forces will rip the body from the car sending it into the ditch while what remains of the car starts doing 360s in the curve for no apparent reason.

I'll have you know that the electronics in any Frumpy is top notch. Car and Driver is always praising the cars released by them and scores them high on wizbangery. I will only go by what Car and Driver tells me.

 

[exdeath]

Originally posted by: JLGatsby

Originally posted by: exdeath
Exotic engines? What are they using anti-mater? Is it because it looks like a big mysterious black box when you open the hood and assume it's some kind of fusion reactor? Nope, thats just a plastic cover.

When I say more exotic engines, I mean more highly tuned and powerful engines.

Lexus doesn't even have a tuning division, unlike BMW or Mercedes.

Lexus has never made a V12, V10, or anything really powerful at all. So much of Mercedes' time is spent developing more "exotic" and poweful engines, while Lexus spends all of it's time on more practical engines, which is why you see the difference.

And Lexus sells more practical cars. BMW and Mercedes are more exotic.

For someone who claims BMW and Mercedes are exotic, you sure seem to know alot more about Lexus.

You've managed to tell me what Lexus doesn't do rather than what BMW/Mercedes does that makes them so exotic. I know we are talking engines, but I might point out it was Lexus (thus Toyota) that came up with the hard top convertible and run flat tires (SC430 which is a test bed for alot of 'exotic' features).

V10? V12? So it's number of cylinders that determine exotic status? So all Dodge and Ford cars have more exotic engines because the respective companies make V10s? Chrysler/GM makes/made a V16 for a Caddilac, where is Mercedes V16? Even Ferrari is making the blasphemous move to V8 as the gains of the V12 are diminishing with advances in technology.

Is exotic making the most power with the biggest engine? The Dodge V10 makes over 500 HP without twin turbo, Mercedes needs turbo to get 600 HP despite having two more cylinders. A Dodge V10 can make 1200+ HP with twin turbos. The SVT Cobra 4.6 can make 800+ HP with a factory built V8.

Is exotic making the most power with the smallest engine? Lexus/Toyota makes 6 cyl engines that make over 300 HP, more than most V6/V8 engines... maybe they don't need V12s? Honda and Ford have tiny 4 cyl engines making 220+ HP.

Anyhow are we talking forumla 1 cars or special edition 100 count run super car prototypes? Last I checked we were discussing cars that people actually drive on the road in quantity daily. I don't care if Mercedes has a W24 quad turbo engine, thats not what you or I or anyone else on this formum is driving every day, regardless of if we can afford them or not.

You know very well those aren't the engines in the typical cars that we are talking about here. And you know very well that not everyone who drives a Mercedes drives a S65 AMG. Thats like you driving a VW Jetta and saying your Jetta's engine is more exotic because of the W16 Bugatti Veyron. We are talking real cars that people drive, not lab experiments. Rolls Royce makes jet engines, does that imply that their gasoline car engines are somehow more exotic than everyone elses?

So far you've managed to convince me that BMW and Mercedes engines are more 'exotic' only after they stick the empty and coveted BMW or Mercedes emblem on the hood.

 

[SnipeMasterJ13]

exdeath...How DARE you use logic and valid arguments against JLGatsby!?

On another note, those 03-04 Cobras are nasty machines. That is the only Mustang I've actually considered buying, but they are a little out of my price range. Definitely a sexy ride. I ended up with just a 2000 Trans Am WS6(insert mullet jokes here, I'm used to it). I've decided to keep it, and still go after a C5 Z06, instead of selling it and getting a Z06. More fast cars = more happiness.

 

[JLGatsby]

exdeath, You argue like a politician, using very little logic.

The high powered American cars you mentioned, they're of crap quality and use very little technology and advanced engineering.

They're more exotic because Mercedes and BMWs have constantly created more powerful engines than Lexus. Lexus has never been able to compete in terms of power.

 

[exdeath]

Originally posted by: JLGatsby
exdeath, You argue like a politician, using very little logic.

The high powered American cars you mentioned, they're of crap quality and use very little technology and advanced engineering.

They're more exotic because Mercedes and BMWs have constantly created more powerful engines than Lexus. Lexus has never been able to compete in terms of power.

Logic is the only thing I argue with, and I am the first to make correction and admit that I am wrong. But the fact is I'm not really arguing anything, I'm just asking you for the basis of your statements that BMW and Mercedes are somehow intrinsically more exotic than anyone else by virtue of their name alone.

What kind of technology and advanced engineering do you speak of? Forged alloys and modern metalurgy? Electronic fuel control systems? Variable valve trains? Forced induction? The use of cheap plastic on engine parts like everyone else? Does BMW have an exotic method of combusing hydrocarbons and oxygen that nobody else knows about? Give me a break already!

Reliability? I drive by a European specialty shop here in town every day. I see nothing but BMWs and Mercedes there ALL the time, brand new ones even with temp plates, sometimes sitting on flat beds, with the occasional 308 or even 360 Ferrari there for an oil change. You speak as if BMW/Mercedes don't break down as often as any other car, if not more according to displeased owners of those cars. I've got about 60k miles on my Ford Cobra without a single defect or mechanical problem; even more so amazing that I'm pushing twice the factory power through the stock engine.

Power? Lexus engines that exist in a comparable size compare in power to BMW/Mercedes engines. They don't make bigger engines because they don't need or want them for their model lineup. It is a business decision. In place of Lexus however, I've given examples of other car makers with equal or superior engine technology; cars which by your own admission are even more inferior to Lexus.

I've given facts and examples that anyone can look up for themselves, and requested your feedback. You totally ignored every statement in my post and copied and pasted the "well they are just more powerful and higher quality because the are Mercedes" line for the 10th time.

So I ask again: Where is BMWs 240 HP 4 cyl engine? Where is Mercedes 1000+ V16? Perhaps you'd like to point out some of this advanced technology and engineering for us so the rest of us can dream of it in our next cars? I'll be sure the make sure my next car is put together with BMW screws imported from Europe.

PS: for the rest of you, my posting here is more for entertainment value, I know JLGatsby is clueless and won't write a real reply (because for one, I've made sure there isn't one that can be written that isn't emotionally attached)

 

[JLGatsby]

exdeath, You can say what you wish, but I still contend I'm right.

 

[exdeath]

Originally posted by: JLGatsby
exdeath, You can say what you wish, but I still contend I'm right.

More power to ya buddy.

Just try not to kill yourself or somebody else hopelessly trying to prove to me you can keep up when I'm wasting you around a corner in my American made Ford. The SVT emblem on the rear lower left is quite distinct, kinda like the AMG emblem. If you're quick, you can't miss it.

 

[JLGatsby]

Originally posted by: exdeath
Try not to kill yourself trying to prove to me you can keep up when I'm wasting you around a corner in my American made Ford. The SVT emblem on the rear lower left is quite distinct, kinda like the AMG emblem. If you're quick, you can't miss it.

Wintertime is coming, you won't be wasting no one. I have 4WD.

I'm not intimidated by a SVT stamping on your plastic bumper.

 

[exdeath]

Originally posted by: JLGatsby

Originally posted by: exdeath
Try not to kill yourself trying to prove to me you can keep up when I'm wasting you around a corner in my American made Ford. The SVT emblem on the rear lower left is quite distinct, kinda like the AMG emblem. If you're quick, you can't miss it.

Wintertime is coming, you won't be wasting no one. I have 4WD.

I'm not intimidated by a SVT stamping on your plastic bumper.

Winter for me is 70 deg and Sunny.

Like the fibre glass in a Asus or Gigabyte or MSI mainboard, the plastic in my bumper cover comes from the same plant that Mercedes gets theirs, which in turn comes from the same petroleum. Tell you what, lets call it 'composite' instead of 'plastic', it sounds more exotic.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: JLGatsby
exdeath, You argue like a politician, using very little logic.

The high powered American cars you mentioned, they're of crap quality and use very little technology and advanced engineering.

They're more exotic because Mercedes and BMWs have constantly created more powerful engines than Lexus. Lexus has never been able to compete in terms of power.

Until now (LS460)

 

[beemercer]

Originally posted by: LS20
hi, i argue on the internet about cars i dont have

Hi LS20, welcome to ePenis Argueers Anonymous.

 

[Iron Woode]

Originally posted by: JLGatsby
exdeath, You argue like a politician, using very little logic.

The high powered American cars you mentioned, they're of crap quality and use very little technology and advanced engineering.

They're more exotic because Mercedes and BMWs have constantly created more powerful engines than Lexus. Lexus has never been able to compete in terms of power.

:music:Trollin', trollin', trollin'
Keep that BS rollin'
Your head is really swollen,
Troll guy....:music: