any news on the 2407?

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: knifemyglitter
darXoul, is it really coming out in three days? and how did you know about the new panel? also, what are some alternatives in the 24" zone.

Does'nt anyone read any reviews around here? The fastest best colors display is a year old S-IPS from HP. Not inferior Dells using cheap MVA or TN or anything else. Samsung's mva motion blur horrible - and they toptally lie about the numbers citing grey to grey in tead of old school, on off... in reality Dell 2405 RS is hovering in the 25ms range according to toms. As far as I'm concerned those stating it does'nt ghost are either fooling themselves which is natual after dropping $900 on junk - or blind - or both.

also.. do a google search for "input lag 2405" not covered by toms or AT's reviews.

 

[xtknight]

Dell 2405FPW response: http://www.tomshardware.com/2006/01/31/...want_a_16_9_lcd_monitor_now/page8.html (RGB 0-50 for Dell 2405FPW will be an 80 ms gradually declining to 21 ms.) Blurring will be exceptionally bad in that dark color range, just like the VP191. Fortunately it's not very common.

VX924 (fastest TN display with least artifacts): http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/other/display/response-compensation_19.html (RGB 0-30 for VX924 will be in line with the rest of the graph (~6 ms.)) For reference, a CRT will have 0.825 ms. rise and 0.035 ms. fall (total 0.860 ms.) in gray-to-gray colors. This LCD should be fast enough for anybody, but its colors will be inferior to other higher-response-rated models.

 

[darXoul]

Yes, it should come out on the 24th but I can't guarantee that, I don't work for Dell. It's supposed to be based on the new LTM240M2 panel by Samsung, which is rated 8 ms g2g. So the new Dells should be 8 or 6 ms. If the electronics make it to 6 ms, it will be a pretty good gaming monitor.

Alternatives in the large widescreen zoe:

ViewSonic VP321wb - 23" S-IPS 16/12 ms panel. Great viewing angles and solid response time - better than 2405FPW but worse than 6 ms S-PVA.

ViewSonic VP2330wb - 23" P-MVA 16/8 ms panel. Less video noise than on PVA, pretty good response time, availability right now is non-existent.

Acer AL2416W - 24" S-PVA 16/6 ms panel. Fast but no DVI and height adjustment.

Samsung 244t - 24" S-PVA 16/6 ms panel. Fast but expensive, plus input lag reported.

Eizo S2410W - 24" S-PVA 16/8 ms panel. Slower than 6 ms PVA and 8 ms MVA, plus expensive, though a good allround monitor.


I don't want to spoil the party but most "good" large widescreens are based on VA panels which, according to numerous reports, suffer from severe input lag which makes competitive gaming pretty much impossible.

I wonder how the new 6 ms g2g S-IPS panel produced by LG.Philips will perform... and when it's going to be used in monitors available in stores. Probably soon. Anyway, colors and viewing angles are guaranteed great, contrast should be OK as well, and response time looks very good based on the response delivered by 20" new NEC ws.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: darXoul
I wonder how the new 6 ms g2g S-IPS panel produced by LG.Philips will perform... and when it's going to be used in monitors available in stores. Probably soon. Anyway, colors and viewing angles are guaranteed great, contrast should be OK as well, and response time looks very good based on the response delivered by 20" new NEC ws.

You mean the Mitsubishi AS-IPS 6 ms. or is LG Philips also producing one now? I believe the IPS panels won't have a spike in response in the dark color range like the VAs (not nearly as much), so that will automatically make them a lot more suitable. I predict base-line total response time of maybe 10 ms.

 

[Zebo]

I can't beleive you're citing VX924. Belongs in trash can not desktop. Horrbile picture quality, colors, back light bleed on all four corners. If someone gave me one I'd never use it. I might sell it to some annoymous person but i'd feel bad.

 

[darXoul]

Originally posted by: xtknight
You mean the Mitsubishi AS-IPS 6 ms. or is LG Philips also producing one now? I believe the IPS panels won't have a spike in response in the dark color range like the VAs (not nearly as much), so that will automatically make them a lot more suitable. I predict base-line total response time of maybe 10 ms.

I mean the new panel produced by LG.Philips.

Zebo, I guess you found the 204B better than VX924? If you could give ratings let's say from 1 (suckage) to 5 (ownage) for (a) response time, (b) colors, (c) viewing angles, (d) black level, (e) backlight uniformity, (f) video noise, how would you rate the two TN panels from your experience?

 

[Zebo]

Yes, it should come out on the 24th but I can't guarantee that, I don't work for Dell. It's supposed to be based on the new LTM240M2 panel by Samsung

Philips cancelled thier IT contract with dell - no coincidence IMO that 2005 was moved off Philips panel inside 2007.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: Zebo
I can't beleive you're citing VX924. Belongs in trash can not desktop. Horrbile picture quality, colors, back light bleed on all four corners. If someone gave me one I'd never use it. I might sell it to some annoymous person but i'd feel bad.

That's the only monitor using that panel I could find a measurement for. ViewSonic is famous for visciously neutering their monitors (in terms of backlight bleed) so I wouldn't use them as a reference point. But it seems a lot of 'pro' gamers could care less about picture quality (setting picmip to 5 to get max FPS), so if they go to LAN parties a lot and can't haul a CRT this is their only choice.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: darXoul

Originally posted by: xtknight
You mean the Mitsubishi AS-IPS 6 ms. or is LG Philips also producing one now? I believe the IPS panels won't have a spike in response in the dark color range like the VAs (not nearly as much), so that will automatically make them a lot more suitable. I predict base-line total response time of maybe 10 ms.

I mean the new panel produced by LG.Philips.

Zebo, I guess you found the 204B better than VX924? If you could give ratings let's say from 1 (suckage) to 5 (ownage) for (a) response time, (b) colors, (c) viewing angles, (d) black level, (e) backlight uniformity, (f) video noise, how would you rate the two TN panels from your experience?

Yes the 204B was better as I noted in previous review.

VX924
a) 4
b) 1
c) 3 (1 vertical)
d) 2 (1 edges)
e) 1
f) 2

Overall 1.5/5

204B
a) 3 (little slower than VX in the side by side)
b) 2 (still 6 bit but better contrast made colors seem richer although still hollow)
c) 3 (1 vertical)
d) 3 (not as good as S-IPS in 2005)
e) 4 ( good back light)
f) 3 ( better video noise tech implemented but still noticeable)

Overall 3/5

I rank the Dell 2005 4/5.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: Zebo
I rank the Dell 2005 4/5.

Since the IPS panels block more light, I'd be surprised you can stand the contrast on the thing. The Dell 2001FP was rated by Anandtech as 48:1 contrast ratio (Godawful). Maybe the 2005FPW is worlds different (uses twice as bright backlight) but I don't know.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: darXoul
I mean the new panel produced by LG.Philips.

Hmm...confused. I was pretty sure the NEC 20 GX² used a Mitsubishi IPS (they produce them as well). Any specs on this LG.Philips? I don't see it listed on their site anywhere (it should be if they are currently in a selling monitor). Well there is a 8 ms here: http://www.flatpanels.dk/nyhed.php?suba...1140483196&archive=&start_from=&ucat=&

It should make you happy they also have a next-gen non-widescreen 20" 8 ms g2g version.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: xtknight

Originally posted by: Zebo
I can't beleive you're citing VX924. Belongs in trash can not desktop. Horrbile picture quality, colors, back light bleed on all four corners. If someone gave me one I'd never use it. I might sell it to some annoymous person but i'd feel bad.

That's the only monitor using that panel I could find a measurement for. ViewSonic is famous for visciously neutering their monitors (in terms of backlight bleed) so I wouldn't use them as a reference point. But it seems a lot of 'pro' gamers could care less about picture quality (setting picmip to 5 to get max FPS), so if they go to LAN parties a lot and can't haul a CRT this is their only choice.

That's true, like with many things in life nothing is perfect and sacifices must be made... but Viewsonic asks too much sacrifice IMO. Especially for the prices they want for them.

It better all be about mobility and response time for this buyer... and even then a bigger guy is better off with a CRT hauling around to lans.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: xtknight

Originally posted by: Zebo
I rank the Dell 2005 4/5.

Since the IPS panels block more light, I'd be surprised you can stand the contrast on the thing. The Dell 2001FP was rated by Anandtech as 48:1 contrast ratio (Godawful). Maybe the 2005FPW is worlds different (uses twice as bright backlight) but I don't know.

???

According to AT 2005 has highest bright AND contrast.

Again: no offense... anyone read the review at anandtech or just post here?

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: Zebo
???

According to AT 2005 has highest bright AND contrast.

Again: no offense... anyone read the review at anandtech or just post here?

Rather surprising, since it uses the exact same technology. The 2001FP must have just had a horrible black then.

 

[justlnluck]

Originally posted by: darXoul
Yes, it should come out on the 24th but I can't guarantee that, I don't work for Dell. It's supposed to be based on the new LTM240M2 panel by Samsung, which is rated 8 ms g2g. So the new Dells should be 8 or 6 ms. If the electronics make it to 6 ms, it will be a pretty good gaming monitor.

But aren't the 'electronics' what cause the input lag? I'd rather have a true 8ms panel than one that used a buffer to give 6ms.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: justlnluck
But aren't the 'electronics' what cause the input lag? I'd rather have a true 8ms panel than one that used a buffer to give 6ms.

I think so. The Samsung 244t appears to be more immune than the Dell 2405FPW, same Samsung panel. I don't think this is in any way related to attempting to reduce response time like some people think. I don't believe it is a matter of the most efficient manner of transitioning crystals, so buffering wouldn't help anyway. Or, at least, the technology for doing that is extremely complex and simply unavailable at this point, and for a long time. It's almost certainly a lot less effective than overdrive tech as well.

 

[ND40oz]

Originally posted by: Zebo

Yes, it should come out on the 24th but I can't guarantee that, I don't work for Dell. It's supposed to be based on the new LTM240M2 panel by Samsung

Philips cancelled thier IT contract with dell - no coincidence IMO that 2005 was moved off Philips panel inside 2007.

It also isn't a coincidence that a dell monitor factory is next door to a samsung factory...

Dell was taken aback by the demand for thier monitors and this has delayed the release of the 1707/1907/2007/2407/2707. They're currently making sure they have enough product for when they go on sale. This is a whole new market for them as they just started out in the business to bundle a monitor with a pc, now they have people coming to them for just monitors.

Also, I've spoken with someone at Dell, expect the 2407 to be pushed back a few more days. We'll be lucky if we see it the end of this week.

 

[Zebo]

Great monitors - great bezels - great stands and most importantly great prices - what's not to like? I am disappointed by lack of S-IPS in thier new line up but maybe I'll warn UP to S-MVA.. never have liked it - but newer may be better...Can't wait for reviews.

wonder if Dell went samsung first or Philips cancelled dell first for the falling out.

 

[darXoul]

Originally posted by: xtknight
It should make you happy they also have a next-gen non-widescreen 20" 8 ms g2g version.

Exactly Or the 23" 6 ms g2g one. Both look pretty good.

Zebo, thanks for the evaluation. 3/5 response time for the 204B? You are harsh, man How would you rate the 2005FPW (a-f) to compare?

 

[xtknight]

darXoul: you still play Q3 CPMA? We should play some time, although I'm afraid I will be bottlenecked by n00bness and not my P-MVA.

Well, if the 2005FPW beats the 204B in response time...that's a second coming of Christ. I have heard IPS panels have different blurring artifacts or something to that extent. Maybe there's some truth to it. Personally I have only used TN and P-MVA. After all, I can get a CRT to glow a lot by moving a white mouse pointer over a black picture. But it isn't nearly as annoying as the blurring or smearing of slow LCDs.

 

[darXoul]

xtknight, yes, I've just played some Clan Arena madness Since my aim remained pretty much intact since my "glory days" and I can still move, I'm a very solid CA player with 65-75 eff usually and around 40-50% RG combined with 25-30% LG. Unfortunately, in TDM and most 1v1 games (except for maybe CPM1a) I'm way too impatient so I often lose on tactics. I'm still good enough to beat many kids but against top players, I have no chance. I simply don't practice anymore, I'm an occasional player... but demanding in terms of ghosting anyway

 

[Zebo]

Zebo, thanks for the evaluation. 3/5 response time for the 204B? You are harsh, man

It gets a 3 because it's slower than overdrive TN inside 924 (which is a 4). And of course way slower than any CRT (which is a 5). It's noticeable. Dell 2005 gets a 2. It's worse than 204b but better than the older gen IPS MVA panels which seemed to hover in 30ms land.

Harsh? no. I just don't give 4.5 and 5's down the line like Kris does. Where I come from 3 is average and median, on a 5 point scale. Kris gives everything above average (4's and 5's) leaving nothing to base his sample size upon IMO. None of these monitors should get 5's except on convergence.

 

[darXoul]

Originally posted by: Zebo
Dell 2005 gets a 4. It's worse than 204b but better than the older gen IPS MVA panels which seemed to hover in 30ms land.

4 overall I guess, not for response time - if you say it's slower than 204b.

 

[Zebo]

hehe beat me to it see Edited..

 

[darXoul]

Originally posted by: Zebo
hehe beat me to it see Edited..

Ah yes, OK

What about the viewing angle on the 204b? It's pretty huge so the vertical angle is somewhat troublesome... OTOH, if you can sit dead on in front of the monitor, it shouldn't bother you much. I've seen the 204b in store and didn't seem too bad but I seriously don't know what I'd claim after hours of gaming.