AP: Elisabeth Smart Found Alive

[rahvin]

Originally posted by: Morph

Originally posted by: Beau

Originally posted by: Morph
She was staying with these people willingly, who knows why. There is all kinds of stories coming out now about people seeing her out in public wearing a veil. She was even at a party with these people, apparently blocks from her home in Utah. She made no attempts to get away or let anyone know she was being held against her will. Very strange.

Read some more of the articles. She made no attempt because there were always at least 2 people with her.

Dude, give me a break. How does having two people with her prevent her from ripping off her veil and yelling "help me, I've been kidnapped"? They were in the middle of a party, for gods sake. Unless the guy had a remote-controlled instant killing device implanted on her. Yeah right.

One guy from San Diego said he was talking to the man and Elizabeth and the woman were both giggling under their veils behind him. You don't giggle if you are fearing for your life or something. Whatever happened, I guess she's ashamed now and trying to make excuses.

Unless of course you are dealing with a case of Stockholm syndrome eh?

 

[BarneyFife]

This is getting more bizarre by the minute and its beginning to sound like she ran away. Even Drudge has an interesting story

http://www.drudgereport.com/smart.htm

'YOU THINK I AM THE GIRL WHO RAN AWAY,' SMART TOLD COP

"You guys think I'm that Elizabeth Smart girl who ran away," Elizabeth Smart challenged police officer Bill O'Neal the moment she was found by authorities.

Smart's startling words have ignited a firestorm around Salt Lake City: Was the teen unknowingly conveying the unthinkable -- she deliberately ran away from home?!

While local and federal authorities work on the likely premise the girl was taken by force and later brainwashed, questions of a possible runaway scenario began to creep into the picture, sources said late Thursday.

One top federal source said the case remains "utterly baffling."

Just as NBC reported teen Elizabeth had a "ceremonial marriage" to the drifter on the night she went missing.

MORE

Dressed in a wig, veil and sunglasses, Smart told the police officers who discovered her Wednesday in the Salt Lake City suburb of Sandy that her name was "Augustine." She said that the couple accompanying her - Brian Mitchell and his wife, Wanda Barzee - were her parents.

But police became suspicious of the young girl who kept calling herself "Augustine".

?She said she's a child from God, a minister of the Church of Christ and she along with her parents are passing on the gospel throughout the United States," said officer Victor Quesada.

Smart became agitated when officers asked her to remove her wig and sunglasses, and told them she recently had eye surgery.

"She kind of just blurted out, 'I know who you think I am. You guys think I'm that Elizabeth Smart girl who ran away,''' officer O'Neal said.

For nearly 30-minutes, she denied she was Elizabeth.

She expressed concern about what would happen to the man and woman she had been living with.

[Is it possible for someone who has been completely brainwashed to simply rebound hours later? The family said Elizabeth shared hugs and jokes with her parents and siblings just hours after being separated from Mitchell and Barzee. Elizabeth even gave an impromptu harp concert. "She's like totally talking, totally casual," said Elizabeth's cousin, Sierra, 22. "She got all new clothes. She gave a fashion show." One case insider asked: "Just when did the deprogramming occur here?"]

KNIFE OR GUN?

Elizabeth's father, Ed Smart, said the little miss described being taken from her home last June at knife point.

At the time, Elizabeth's sister, Mary Katherine, then 9, said Elizabeth was taken by a man with a gun.

'I remember hearing Mary Katherine saying 'You're not going to find her. A man took her. A man took her with a gun,' Mr. Smart said months after the disappearance.

Unidentified fingerprints found in the bedroom of Elizabeth Smart were compared to 84 thousand fingerprints on record -- including those of suspect Brian David Mitchell -- without a match ever being made, the AP reported late Thursday.

MORE

Meanwhile, intrigue swirls around the period of time Elizabeth Smart stayed in a basement apartment -- a block from a Salt Lake police station!

Elizabeth didn't seem in danger and expressed no fear of her captors, claims the man who rents the studio. He said she had an opportunity to escape the apartment or call police at night.

"I figured she could have called the cops if she wanted,'' Daniel Trotta, 24, told reporters.

 

[Kanalua]

Stockholm syndrome, probably...

voluntarily ran away with the psycho, no...

 

[Mill]

Originally posted by: Kanalua
Stockholm syndrome, probably...

voluntarily ran away with the psycho, no...

We actually don't know yet. I have not doubt it has Patty Hearst twinges to it(I have said that all along), but I wouldn't doubt if she did voluntarily leave. All of this right now is just speculation and rumors. We may never know the real story.

 

[Grasshopper27]

Originally posted by: Kanalua
Stockholm syndrome, probably...

voluntarily ran away with the psycho, no...

We have a winner... That is exactly what happened...

People just don't want to believe there are some really evil sick fvckers in the world who would do this to a 14 year old girl. So they have to come up with other reasons for it...

DON'T BLAME THE VICTIM!!!!

: ) Hopper

 

[Mill]

Originally posted by: Grasshopper27

Originally posted by: Kanalua
Stockholm syndrome, probably...

voluntarily ran away with the psycho, no...

We have a winner... That is exactly what happened...

People just don't want to believe there are some really evil sick fvckers in the world who would do this to a 14 year old girl. So they have to come up with other reasons for it...

DON'T BLAME THE VICTIM!!!!

: ) Hopper

Hopper, all the facts are not in yet. We do not know what all occured as of yet or hwo it occured. There is no blaming of ELizabeth Smart going on. Many people(myself included) see that this case is not adding up yet. Not all cases add up perfectly but most do. I point you in the direction of Karla Homolka, Patty Hearst, and the victims of David Parker Ray. I am not saying that she went voluntarily, although it is a very real possibility. Likely? Maybe not.

If you want to learn a good bit about people like Emmanuel and profiling you should pick up some books by Roy Hazelwood or John Douglas. They are the two best profilers and criminologists that have ever lived.

 

[Alienwho]

I might have a reason why after only 9 months, elizabeth went from that small skinny young girl playing the harp, to the bigger more "womanly" girl we see now. From what I gather from people who actually went to school with elizabeth smart (friends younger brothers/sisters) is elizabeth is not the angel girl the media portrays her as. She started to go "rebel" and "gothic" and became a party girl, and her family was too embarassed to release any more recent photos of her in her new party girl attitude.

This is definitely a possible explanation, rather then she suddenly went through puberty during the 9 months she was gone.

Also this makes complete sense to me because on the news yesterday the media was casually interviewing elizabeth's good friend, and that girl said "I want to tell everybody about the rumors going about elizabeth is not true. I know she would never do anything bad with boys". I thought this was extremely interesting when nobody was talking about anything like that, she just started talking about it. After I heard the new news today on elizabeth's not so angelic pre-kidnapped state, the pieces started to fit.

There is a whole lot more to this than we know.

 

[Grasshopper27]

Originally posted by: Alienwho
I might have a reason why after only 9 months, elizabeth went from that small skinny young girl playing the harp, to the bigger more "womanly" girl we see now. From what I gather from people who actually went to school with elizabeth smart (friends younger brothers/sisters) is elizabeth is not the angel girl the media portrays her as. She started to go "rebel" and "gothic" and became a party girl, and her family was too embarassed to release any more recent photos of her in her new party girl attitude.

This is definitely a possible explanation, rather then she suddenly went through puberty during the 9 months she was gone.

Most of the pictures and video shown is from when she was 12 and 13 years old. The family has never denied this.

There is a world of difference between a girl growing up, rebelling a bit, and a girl who runs off for 9 months with a homeless stranger who spent 5 hours at her parents house working on the roof.

Also this makes complete sense to me because on the news yesterday the media was casually interviewing elizabeth's good friend

I'm sure Elisabeth has a lot of "good friends" who get a kick out of being in front of a camera.

Also, you should know better than to completely trust anything from those 15 year old kids.

There is a whole lot more to this than we know.

I know that a 14 year old girl spent the past 9 months with strangers she did not know prior to being abducted from her home.

Even if she had wanted to run away, they had no right to take her. It is illegal to keep a kid that is not yours, you simply can't do it.

Thus, it is kidnapping, even if she went of her own free will. Which I doubt, but even if she did, that doesn't make it any less wrong on the part of the adults here.

: ) Hopper

 

[Mill]

Hopper, I don't think anyone is trying to apologize for Emmanuel and his supposed wife. I think there is more to this story than we currently have. It is not just a guess, but an educated guess.

 

[Grasshopper27]

Originally posted by: Millennium
Hopper, all the facts are not in yet.

The ones that count are...

Fact #1: Elisabeth Smart is alive and safe

Fact #2: She was kidnapped by a pair of adults and held for 9 months

It actually doesn't matter what the situation was, she is 14 years old and no adult may keep her without her parents knowledge and consent. It is called kidnapping either way and they will spend the rest of their lives in prison for it.

We do not know what all occured as of yet or hwo it occured.

She was kidnapped from her home in the middle of the night at knife point. Her 9 year old sister has confirmed this over and over. You just can't make a 9 year old lie for that long, so I have no doubt that part is true...

There is no blaming of ELizabeth Smart going on.

Ok, so long as we're clear there...

Many people(myself included) see that this case is not adding up yet. Not all cases add up perfectly but most do. I point you in the direction of Patty Hearst.

Patty Hearst was kidnapped and held against her will, maybe I miss the connection.

If you want to learn a good bit about people like Emmanuel and profiling you should pick up some books by Roy Hazelwood or John Douglas. They are the two best profilers and criminologists that have ever lived.

I don't require any further information. He is an adult, she is a child that is not his. It ends there...

He is a kidnapper and a criminal and will spend the rest of his life in prison for his crimes. No possible facts that could ever come out will ever change those facts.

: ) Hopper

 

[Alienwho]

Hopper i'm just simply stating what I know, i'm not trying to pin anything on her at all.

I'm sure Elisabeth has a lot of "good friends" who get a kick out of being in front of a camera. Also, you should know better than to completely trust anything from those 15 year old kids.

The entire time i was watching this mini interview i was sitting there thinking, why are they interviewing this stupid girl, it seemed like a time filler. But when that girl said "i know elizabeth would never do anything bad with boys, etc. the rumors aren't true". Well doesn't that just seem like an odd thing to say when elizabeth was just barely found when nobody was talking about this in the first place?

And why would the family release old photos when they obviously would have more recent photos? I know for damn sure if i saw the current elizabeth walking down the street I wouldn't recognise her because i'm used to seeing the 12 year old little baby girl.

 

[Mill]

Originally posted by: Grasshopper27

Originally posted by: Millennium
Hopper, all the facts are not in yet.

The ones that count are...

Fact #1: Elisabeth Smart is alive and safe

Fact #2: She was kidnapped by a pair of adults and held for 9 months

It actually doesn't matter what the situation was, she is 14 years old and no adult may keep her without her parents knowledge and consent. It is called kidnapping either way and they will spend the rest of their lives in prison for it.

We do not know what all occured as of yet or hwo it occurred.

She was kidnapped from her home in the middle of the night at knife point. Her 9 year old sister has confirmed this over and over. You just can't make a 9 year old lie for that long, so I have no doubt that part is true...

There is no blaming of ELizabeth Smart going on.

Ok, so long as we're clear there...

Many people(myself included) see that this case is not adding up yet. Not all cases add up perfectly but most do. I point you in the direction of Patty Hearst.

Patty Hearst was kidnapped and held against her will, maybe I miss the connection.

If you want to learn a good bit about people like Emmanuel and profiling you should pick up some books by Roy Hazelwood or John Douglas. They are the two best profilers and criminologists that have ever lived.

I don't require any further information. He is an adult, she is a child that is not his. It ends there...

He is a kidnapper and a criminal and will spend the rest of his life in prison for his crimes. No possible facts that could ever come out will ever change those facts.

: ) Hopper

You have complained yourself about making rash judgments. You are doing it once again. No one is doubting that Emmanuel and his wife committed crimes. What people are interested in(including myself) is exactly what happened. It is not morbid curiosity on my part, I have an absolute desire to know all the facts. Everything is not as cut and dry as you are making it.

Patty Hearst is valid thought, because she too was kidnapped and then started sympathizing with her kidnappers. Nixon pardoned her(he should not have) but that is a whole knew thread it its own. Take it from someone who has done extensive research on Crime and profiling that there are many questions to be answered.

This is a very interesting case(most crimes are) and making rash judgements does not help anyone. Because of rash judgements, the true people behind the Lindbergh kidnaping were never caught. Keep that in mind.

 

[Grasshopper27]

Originally posted by: Millennium
Hopper, I don't think anyone is trying to apologize for Emmanuel and his supposed wife.

Ok, sorry if I sound like a hot head, this just affects me personally...

I dislike people who hurt children even more than I dislike Saddam. And if you have read my threads, you know how I feel about him.

Give me Emmanuel, I'll deal with that slimeball... I have all the facts I need, nothing else I learn will change the key point that he held her for 9 months. In my opinion, he should die for that.

Kidnapping and otherwise harming a child (rape, molestation, aggravated assault, murder) should always be a capital crime.

In addition, I believe that first right to carry out the punishment should be offered to the parents of the child, in any manner they choose.

It should be made completely and totally 100% crystal clear that harming a child is never, ever acceptable.

I think there is more to this story than we currently have. It is not just a guess, but an educated guess.

Yes, there might well be, but we don't need to know what it is...

: ) Hopper

 

[Alienwho]

Yes, there might well be, but we don't need to know what it is...

I disagree. If this case is going to get so much media attention and force fed to us, we damn well better get the truth and all the facts. If they wanted to keep it secret and didn't want the public to know everything this wouldn't be such a giant media circus. And a significant part of the giant media circus is definitely the fault of the parents.

 

[Mill]

Originally posted by: Alienwho

Yes, there might well be, but we don't need to know what it is...

I disagree. If this case is going to get so much media attention and force fed to us, we damn well better get the truth and all the facts. If they wanted to keep it secret and didn't want the public to know everything this wouldn't be such a giant media circus. And a significant part of the giant media circus is definitely the fault of the parents.

We need to know because it is an integral part in protecting ourselves and our children. We always learn massive amounts from accurate crime reporting.

 

[BarneyFife]

It doesn't add up because her sister said she was taken away at gunpoint and it was actually knifepoint. She heard her family calling her in the woods and she did not respond. The screen was cut from the inside of the house. Who knows what happened? She could have made contact with this weirdo when she was walking home from school for all we know. I've found out that kids with families like the Smart household (Ned Flanders) tend to be more rebellious and naive. For all we know, she could have gotten sick of that damn harp.

 

[Alienwho]

Originally posted by: Millennium

Originally posted by: Alienwho

Yes, there might well be, but we don't need to know what it is...

I disagree. If this case is going to get so much media attention and force fed to us, we damn well better get the truth and all the facts. If they wanted to keep it secret and didn't want the public to know everything this wouldn't be such a giant media circus. And a significant part of the giant media circus is definitely the fault of the parents.

We need to know because it is an integral part in protecting ourselves and our children. We always learn massive amounts from accurate crime reporting.

Yeah that was a given

 

[Grasshopper27]

Originally posted by: Millennium
You have complained yourself about making rash judgments.

I don't feel this is a rash judgement, just a simple one based on obvious facts...

Sometimes crimes are indeed cut and dry, I feel this is one of them.

The various bits of information, the "full story" as you put it, doesn't change the base facts one bit.

I have an absolute desire to know all the facts. Everything is not as cut and dry as you are making it.

It is actually in Elisabeth Smart's best interest that we personally not know all the facts.

Some day she is going to grow up, get involved with boys/men her own age, get married, start a family, etc.

Yes, I'm as interested as you are, but... Better that this info is kept in court sealed records and never released. The public's right to know does not override Elisabeth's right to privacy on this matter.

Patty Hearst is valid thought, because she too was kidnapped and then started sympathizing with her kidnappers.

The SLA smashed into her apartment and riddled the place with machine gun fire. She was hit in the face with the buttstock of an assualt rifle and thrown in the trunk of a car. She was then brainwashed over the next several months.

Nothing Patty Hearst did after that point is her fault.

Nixon pardoned her

Actually, it was Clinton who pardoned her on January 20, 2001, the day before he left office.

(he should not have) but that is a whole knew thread it its own

Yes, he should have. That bank robbery was not her fault.

This is a very interesting case(most crimes are) and making rash judgements does not help anyone. Because of rash judgements, the true people behind the Lindbergh kidnaping were never caught. Keep that in mind.

The Lindbergh's didn't have America's Most Wanted and 24/7 news channels like CNN to help... I say that in all seriousness. It was a story and picture on America's Most Wanted that caused the two women to call in when they spotted him.

: ) Hopper

 

[Grasshopper27]

Originally posted by: Alienwho

Yes, there might well be, but we don't need to know what it is...

I disagree. If this case is going to get so much media attention and force fed to us, we damn well better get the truth and all the facts. If they wanted to keep it secret and didn't want the public to know everything this wouldn't be such a giant media circus. And a significant part of the giant media circus is definitely the fault of the parents.

The best thing they can do for Elisabeth right now is demand from the Judge that the court records be sealed and that the media be barred from the courtroom any time Elisabeth is testifying.

The details about specifcily what was done to her (sexual abuse for example), do not need to be public.

: ) Hopper

 

[Mill]

I don't know why I put Nixon. I mean Clinton. Sorry, but I don't believe Stockholm Syndrome is a valid reason for comitting crime. How familiar are you with the Patty Hearst case? I have read several different books about it that were written by BS at Quantico.

 

[Alienwho]

The details about specifcily what was done to her (sexual abuse for example), do not need to be public.

This is not what i'm talking about when I want the facts. I agree that that should not be public. What I am referring to is why didn't she call for help at all those chances? Where did they go? What did they do all the time? Why did she say to police that her name is augestine or whatever? Was she brainwashed?

I want answers to the questions that aren't explicit or private to her.

 

[Grasshopper27]

Originally posted by: Millennium
I don't know why I put Nixon. I mean Clinton. Sorry, but I don't believe Stockholm Syndrome is a valid reason for comitting crime.

When you are under the power and influence of another person to the point where you no longer have free will, you're simply not responsible because you have been brainwashed by someone else to the point where you simply obey them without question.

How familiar are you with the Patty Hearst case? I have read several different books about it that were written by BS at Quantico.

I've watched her give a number of interviews as well as read various web resources.

As I said, she was sitting at home in her apartment when the SLA broke the front door down, sprayed the place with automatic weapons fire (the pictures of the damage are impressive), smashed her in the face with the buttstock of an assualt rifle, threw her in the trunk of a car, and spend the next several months brainwashing her.

: ) Hopper

 

[Grasshopper27]

Originally posted by: Alienwho

The details about specifcily what was done to her (sexual abuse for example), do not need to be public.

This is not what i'm talking about when I want the facts. I agree that that should not be public.

Ok, my bad. I thought you wanted that info public...

What I am referring to is why didn't she call for help at all those chances? Where did they go? What did they do all the time? Why did she say to police that her name is augestine or whatever? Was she brainwashed?

Yes, she was brainwashed. Of that I have no doubt. She was told that she now has a new life, that her old life is gone. He just has to violate her sexually, then tell her that her parents wouldn't want her back because of that, they would be ashamed of her, humiliated in pubic, they would reject her, etc...

They would tell her that if she ran away, no one would want her, that she would have no where to go, that her family had moved on and didn't really want her anymore. As such, she just had to accept that this was now her life and move on.

It is not hard to torture and brainwash a 14 year old girl if you're fvcked in the head and don't mind harming innocent children.

: ) Hopper

 

[Alienwho]

Originally posted by: Grasshopper27

Originally posted by: Alienwho

The details about specifcily what was done to her (sexual abuse for example), do not need to be public.

This is not what i'm talking about when I want the facts. I agree that that should not be public.

Ok, my bad. I thought you wanted that info public...

What I am referring to is why didn't she call for help at all those chances? Where did they go? What did they do all the time? Why did she say to police that her name is augestine or whatever? Was she brainwashed?

Yes, she was brainwashed. Of that I have no doubt. She was told that she now has a new life, that her old life is gone. He just has to violate her sexually, then tell her that her parents wouldn't want her back because of that, they would be ashamed of her, humiliated in pubic, they would reject her, etc...

They would tell her that if she ran away, no one would want her, that she would have no where to go, that her family had moved on and didn't really want her anymore. As such, she just had to accept that this was now her life and move on.

It is not hard to torture and brainwash a 14 year old girl if you're fvcked in the head and don't mind harming innocent children.

: ) Hopper

Good post...didn't really think of it that way. When I think of 14 year old girl I think of loud mouth bratty "wannabe independant" I'll do what I want when I want kind of attitude.

 

[Mill]

Since this thread is already sidetracked...

Hopper if you think brainwashing is an excuse to commit a crime then a lot of terrorists should go free. Many of them have been brainwashed(just like Patty Hearst) and some were brainwashed without volunteering. You are on a slippery slope when you think brainwashing absolves someone from the crimes they commit.

"When you are under the power and influence of another person to the point where you no longer have free will, you're simply not responsible because you have been brainwashed by someone else to the point where you simply obey them without question."

You don't think terrorists are the same? Especially those who were FORCED into joining. Sorry I just can't see how your argument holds water.