Apology thread

[BonzaiDuck]

There likely is a fair amount of material in the report that should be redacted. Legitimately classified information (intelligence sources, etc), grand jury deliberation transcripts, etc. The bigger holistic problem which is perhaps insolvable is that DoJ is an executive function under POTUS. In an ideal world I guess Special Counsel and similar oversight/investigative functions could be a 4th branch of government or the office overseen by the SCOTUS but that would likely take an act of Congress if not an Amendment.

That being said, this thread is shit and perfect example of why this forum is becoming increasingly irrelevant as a means of having reasonable conversations or actually learning something from those with different opinions than you. Instead it's becoming the forum version of the Jerry Springer show where it's 100% about the spectacle and people behaving badly as performance art.

When was there ever a time when the TP/Trumpies here had anything of intellectual merit to say in any civil discussion? I don't ever recall it.

Just the implication that the so-called president's Base are the "American people" makes it impossible for any civil dialogue.

So to any in the Base who want to whimper "Can't we agree to disagree?" I say "Your time will soon be at an end." Some words I remember from a Russell Crowe/Connie Nielson film with Richard Harris and Joaquin Phoenix. You know the one -- "We who are about to die -- salute you".

 

[JEDIYoda]

If Trump had a back-channel to Russia he'd probably have just used that back-channel rather than saying that in a debate out in the open like the idiot that everyone knows that he is....


_____________

No! Trump is not that smart! If he had a back channel to the Russians he would want everybody to know! Trump better hope the Russians don`t come up with those e0mails...….now that would be f8unny!!!

 

[BurnItDwn]

Mueller report has cleared Trump of colluding with Russia

That is incorrect/inaccurate. The Mueller report was said to have been inconclusive.
However, congress and senate have not received the report yet.
Also, the report has not been made public.
So, only people who make their career to protect and appease Trump have seen the report.
Barr is trying to suppress the report.

Why would he do that if it "clears" Trump?

 

[blankslate]

Why would he do that if it "clears" Trump?

He is probably hiding all the evidence that Trump against Trump "Concerning Obstruction of Justice"
I think going back that you'll find no one Mueller indicted in the past has been indicted in relation to collusion but for other crimes.

I definitely think Trump is guilty of emoluments violations, Fraud committed after his inauguration in relation to hush money and of course probably obstruction of justice.

We have seen that Mueller is willing to make corrective statements if he feels that his work has been misreported on... As he did to Buzzfeed.
So if Barr has grossly misreported Mueller's report I expect that he'd have said something by now.

Everyone I have seen on the left who has been skeptical of or urged caution on speculating about Trump being in a conspiracy of course also want to see the report released to the public as well.


___________

 

[Jhhnn]

That is incorrect/inaccurate. The Mueller report was said to have been inconclusive.
However, congress and senate have not received the report yet.
Also, the report has not been made public.
So, only people who make their career to protect and appease Trump have seen the report.
Barr is trying to suppress the report.

Why would he do that if it "clears" Trump?

Because once conservatives believe it clears Trump then nothing will change their minds. Barr knows it. Repetition can create that belief so it'll get hammered on from all the right wing corners of the internet.

 

[soulcougher73]

Why do we let someone under criminal investigation get to tell the judge/jury what evidence they are allowed to see? Most asinine system ever.

 

[brycejones]

Lol I guess Felixthepussy couldn’t take the heat either.

 

[fskimospy]

I would also be very interested to see what Mueller’s report has to say about Paul Manafort and his eventual decision to violate his plea agreement.

Mueller would only have given him a plea agreement if he felt Manafort could help him get someone bigger. I wonder who that was.

 

[Vic]

Stop for a moment to consider what it's like to be so un-self-aware that you've been proven wrong countless times without ever considering offering apology, but the first time you think you might be right, you demand apology from everyone.

 

[Lanyap]

Iol, poor Trump. These Democrats here already didn't care if he did, they rather be Russian anyways. Cuz MAGA

Just standard disingenuous concern from brandonbullshitter again.

Those two old MAGA guys look like they’re gay. Not that there is anything wrong with being gay.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

Those two old MAGA guys look like they’re gay. Not that there is anything wrong with being gay.

Yeah -- I found myself pulling back when I was watching a TV spot about Jared Kushner and I called him (my TV) a little f****t.

We'll need to invent new insulting names. IT's no different than a lot of things where you might use a word that had some other prevailing meaning. Pete Buttigieg is no less a man. Kushner is a dim-witted little sissy.

[I cannot believe flyover America would elect this trash. I cannot believe it. My belief there's been human progress was a delusion -- a fantasy.]

UPDATE: [still the last post as of 9:32PM my time.]

STEVE BANNON is being interviewed by Anderson Cooper.

He just did the thing I'd said the GOP'ers always like to do: take both the logical and argumentative pose of a criminal defense attorney, operating in a context of "reasonable doubt" and "rules of evidence".

Per the Mueller report, he says that "prosecutors either choose to prosecute, or choose not to." To him, that's all there is.

In the world and profession of intelligence, practiced by the national security apparatus, the approach to the truth is in scientific mode, admitting likelihood, statistical uncertainty. That's the approach voiced by intelligence veteran Malcolm Nance. Nance stands by his conclusion that Trump is a likely Russian asset.

To the GOP-er, it's all about "what you can get away with" under this pseudo-judicial view of reality.

This shows the dilemma of how a nation-state moves forward, with risks on one hand of having a "Manchurian Candidate" in the White House, and people who look at this situation as a struggle for power -- people who have a zero-sum view of politics and the same simplistic notion of a courtroom with rules of evidence and reasonable doubt.

In the midst of all this, a megalomaniac accusing the Democrats of "very treasonous acts". But his Base would wear tee-shirts saying they'd rather be Russian than Democrat.

Trump is a Traitor to God, a Traitor to Country, and a Traitor to fellow man -- the human race. If you want me to explain each one, I can, but I'm worn out. He doesn't have to commit a crime to betray the country. There's a moral standard, and a legal standard.

 

[theeedude]

Barr has "cleared" his boss, who hired him to do just that. Just like he "cleared" Reagan goons of Iran Contra and "cleared" Bush of selling WMD's to Iraq. I am going to wait for the full report to be released or leaked out.

 

[FelixDeCat]

Trump is a Traitor to God, a Traitor to Country, and a Traitor to fellow man -- the human race. If you want me to explain each one, I can, but I'm worn out. He doesn't have to commit a crime to betray the country. There's a moral standard, and a legal standard.

You mean like when Hillary sold our uranium to the Russians for payments to her criminal charity? If thats the standard, you are one confused little man.

 

[TheVrolok]

Barr has "cleared" his boss, who hired him to do just that. Just like he "cleared" Reagan goons of Iran Contra and "cleared" Bush of selling WMD's to Iraq. I am going to wait for the full report to be released or leaked out.

I posted this in another thread, but the same point stands here:

It's amazing how they still do not understand that Mueller simply did not take a position on collusion. He did not say it didn't happen. And that this was likely done only because he couldn't indict a sitting president. Essentially, a legal loophole. Barr is giving his opinion in his letter, not Mueller's.

Then, with regard to obstruction, again this is Barr's interpretation. His belief is that one cannot obstruct justice if a crime was not committed (collusion - criminal conspiracy). So since Mueller couldn't comment on collusion due to not being able to indict (not lack of evidence), Barr does not believe obstruction is even possible. This is a minority view in the legal world.

So, BASICALLY, in Barr's view, there's nothing Mueller could have said in his report that would lead to a criminal problem for the president - can't indict a president, so can't comment on any possible crimes committed, and since he can't be indicted, he cannot be convincted of a crime and therefore cannot obstruct justice. It's a self fulfilling prophecy based on not being able to indict a sitting president.

It still could be possible that Mueller would say collision did not happen, but we would need to see the report to say this - it is ABSOLUTELY not what is publicly known.

They just don't understand these concepts. I think it's too complicated. It's also incredibly obvious how much of this comes down to the feels of Trump and his loyalists.

 

[glenn1]

I posted this in another thread, but the same point stands here:

It's amazing how they still do not understand that Mueller simply did not take a position on collusion. He did not say it didn't happen. And that this was likely done only because he couldn't indict a sitting president. Essentially, a legal loophole. Barr is giving his opinion in his letter, not Mueller's.

Then, with regard to obstruction, again this is Barr's interpretation. His belief is that one cannot obstruct justice if a crime was not committed (collusion - criminal conspiracy). So since Mueller couldn't comment on collusion due to not being able to indict (not lack of evidence), Barr does not believe obstruction is even possible. This is a minority view in the legal world.

So, BASICALLY, in Barr's view, there's nothing Mueller could have said in his report that would lead to a criminal problem for the president - can't indict a president, so can't comment on any possible crimes committed, and since he can't be indicted, he cannot be convincted of a crime and therefore cannot obstruct justice. It's a self fulfilling prophecy based on not being able to indict a sitting president.

It still could be possible that Mueller would say collision did not happen, but we would need to see the report to say this - it is ABSOLUTELY not what is publicly known.

They just don't understand these concepts. I think it's too complicated. It's also incredibly obvious how much of this comes down to the feels of Trump and his loyalists.

The report should be released but in the end it likely won’t matter. It seems fairly clear the investigation didn’t find evidence to meet a legal threshold for prosecution like “beyond a reasonable doubt.” That leaves the ultimate resolution to be an inherent judgement call where a political solution is to be preferred over an uncertain legal remedy where POTUS or others might be acquited and embarrass Mueller. It’s highly likely Trump did something impeachment worthy even if he didn’t do something that would result in a slam dunk felony conviction.

 

[Jhhnn]

The report should be released but in the end it likely won’t matter. It seems fairly clear the investigation didn’t find evidence to meet a legal threshold for prosecution like “beyond a reasonable doubt.” That leaves the ultimate resolution to be an inherent judgement call where a political solution is to be preferred over an uncertain legal remedy where POTUS or others might be acquited and embarrass Mueller. It’s highly likely Trump did something impeachment worthy even if he didn’t do something that would result in a slam dunk felony conviction.

Please. Trump would already be under indictment for campaign funding violations were he not Prez. The only answer to a criminal President is impeachment & removal from office.

Barr faces a choice- whether he'll act in the interests of the People or in the interests of the President. Should he choose the latter he will also engage in obstruction of Justice.

 

[UNCjigga]

You mean like when Hillary sold our uranium to the Russians for payments to her criminal charity? If thats the standard, you are one confused little man.

Hillary didn't sell us out to the Russians. Donnie did.

Hillary didn't run a criminal charity. Donnie did.

So sad how you've been gaslighted for so long you don't even realize it. Keep on blue pilling man.

 

[TheVrolok]

The report should be released but in the end it likely won’t matter. It seems fairly clear the investigation didn’t find evidence to meet a legal threshold for prosecution like “beyond a reasonable doubt.”

I think this is probably right, but there's no reason to believe that as fact given what we know publicly this far. Calling Mueller's report an exoneration is laughable at best.

That leaves the ultimate resolution to be an inherent judgement call where a political solution is to be preferred over an uncertain legal remedy where POTUS or others might be acquited and embarrass Mueller. It’s highly likely Trump did something impeachment worthy even if he didn’t do something that would result in a slam dunk felony conviction.

I think this has always been a political matter, and in my opinion he has committed impeachable offenses. Will he be impeached? I doubt it. The amount of protectionism the GOP has undertaken with this president is extreme, and disappointing.

I think voting him out is a reasonable resolution, but unfortunately continued minority rule is very real possibility given our current system including the EC and gerrymandering.

 

[Thebobo]

You know Texas, I guess maybe I was wrong, I don’t know – it’s hard for me to see any U.S. ties to Russia…except for the Roger Stone things

and the Manafort things

and the Cohen things

and the Flynn things

and the Maria Butina / NRA thing

and the NRA campaign contribution thing

and the Tillerson thing

and the Sessions thing

and the Kushner thing

and the Carter Page thing

and the Felix Sater thing

and the Boris Ephsteyn thing

and the Rosneft thing

and the Gazprom thing

and the Sergey Gorkov banker thing

and the Azerbaijan thing

and the “I love Putin” thing

and the Donald Trump, Jr. thing

and the Sergey Kislyak thing

and the Russian Affiliated Interests thing

and the Russian Business Interests thing

and the Emoluments Clause thing

and the Alex Schnaider thing

and the hack of the DNC thing

and the Guccifer 2.0 thing

and the Mike Pence “I don’t know anything” thing

and the Russians mysteriously dying thing

and Trump’s public request to Russia to hack Hillary’s email thing

and the Trump house sale for $100 million at the bottom of the housing bust to the Russian fertilizer king thing

and the Russian fertilizer king’s plane showing up in Concord, NC during Trump
rally campaign thing

and the Nunes sudden flight to the White House in the night thing

and the Nunes personal investments in the Russian winery thing

and the Wilbur Ross with his Cyprus bank thing

and Trump not releasing his tax returns thing

and the Republican Party’s rejection of an amendment to require Trump to show
his taxes thing

and the election hacking thing

and the GOP platform change to the Ukraine thing

and the Steele Dossier thing

and the Leninist Bannon thing

and the Sally Yates can’t testify thing

and the Sally Yates firing thing

and the intelligence community’s investigative reports thing

and Trump’s reassurance that the Russian connection is all "fake news” thing

and Spicer’s Russian Dressing “nothing’s wrong” thing

and Trump warning the Russians and Syrians before the Bombing thing

and the Trump refusing to provide Flynn's foreign ties documents to Congress
thing

and Flynn's illegal Turkish lobbying was paid for by the
Russians thing

and Flynn's illegal lobbying for Russia thing

and the Trump asking Comey for a "loyalty oath" thing

and Trump lying to the world about Comey saying he's not
being investigated thing

and the Trump firing Comey thing

and the Trump or stooges lying to the world about why he fired Comey with 3
different lies

and Trump hosting Russian foreign minister and ambassador one day after to demonstrate his authoritarian street cred

and the finding out that Trump actually tried to fire Robert Mueller in June
2017 thing

and the claim by trump that the Russia investigation is over some unrefunded
golf club fees to Robert Mueller thing...

and the lying to the American public during the campaign about have no business in Russia thing…

and the Ivanka super-duper Moscow hotel spa thing…

So there’s probably nothing, all of this must be normal, just a bunch of separate dots with no connection whatsoever.

(anon text from FB)

 

[zinfamous]

You mean like when Hillary sold our uranium to the Russians for payments to her criminal charity? If thats the standard, you are one confused little man.

when did that happen?

 

[soundforbjt]

You know Texas, I guess maybe I was wrong, I don’t know – it’s hard for me to see any U.S. ties to Russia…except for the Roger Stone things

and the Manafort things

and the Cohen things

and the Flynn things

and the Maria Butina / NRA thing

and the NRA campaign contribution thing

and the Tillerson thing

and the Sessions thing

and the Kushner thing

and the Carter Page thing

and the Felix Sater thing

and the Boris Ephsteyn thing

and the Rosneft thing

and the Gazprom thing

and the Sergey Gorkov banker thing

and the Azerbaijan thing

and the “I love Putin” thing

and the Donald Trump, Jr. thing

and the Sergey Kislyak thing

and the Russian Affiliated Interests thing

and the Russian Business Interests thing

and the Emoluments Clause thing

and the Alex Schnaider thing

and the hack of the DNC thing

and the Guccifer 2.0 thing

and the Mike Pence “I don’t know anything” thing

and the Russians mysteriously dying thing

and Trump’s public request to Russia to hack Hillary’s email thing

and the Trump house sale for $100 million at the bottom of the housing bust to the Russian fertilizer king thing

and the Russian fertilizer king’s plane showing up in Concord, NC during Trump
rally campaign thing

and the Nunes sudden flight to the White House in the night thing

and the Nunes personal investments in the Russian winery thing

and the Wilbur Ross with his Cyprus bank thing

and Trump not releasing his tax returns thing

and the Republican Party’s rejection of an amendment to require Trump to show
his taxes thing

and the election hacking thing

and the GOP platform change to the Ukraine thing

and the Steele Dossier thing

and the Leninist Bannon thing

and the Sally Yates can’t testify thing

and the Sally Yates firing thing

and the intelligence community’s investigative reports thing

and Trump’s reassurance that the Russian connection is all "fake news” thing

and Spicer’s Russian Dressing “nothing’s wrong” thing

and Trump warning the Russians and Syrians before the Bombing thing

and the Trump refusing to provide Flynn's foreign ties documents to Congress
thing

and Flynn's illegal Turkish lobbying was paid for by the
Russians thing

and Flynn's illegal lobbying for Russia thing

and the Trump asking Comey for a "loyalty oath" thing

and Trump lying to the world about Comey saying he's not
being investigated thing

and the Trump firing Comey thing

and the Trump or stooges lying to the world about why he fired Comey with 3
different lies

and Trump hosting Russian foreign minister and ambassador one day after to demonstrate his authoritarian street cred

and the finding out that Trump actually tried to fire Robert Mueller in June
2017 thing

and the claim by trump that the Russia investigation is over some unrefunded
golf club fees to Robert Mueller thing...

and the lying to the American public during the campaign about have no business in Russia thing…

and the Ivanka super-duper Moscow hotel spa thing…

So there’s probably nothing, all of this must be normal, just a bunch of separate dots with no connection whatsoever.

(anon text from FB)

You forgot the Alpha Bank communicating with a server in Trump tower thing.

 

[Bitek]

when did that happen?

Right after Hillary faked the moon landings and murdered Vince Foster, but before she murdered Seth Rich iirc.

Shame such a criminal mastermind couldn't figure out a trip to WI at least once.

 

[Thebobo]

Right after Hillary faked the moon landings and murdered Vince Foster, but before she murdered Seth Rich iirc.

Shame such a criminal mastermind couldn't figure out a trip to WI at least once.

And don't forget the murder of Scalia and the Pizza shop child porn ring thing. Damn she's evil..

 

[MooseNSquirrel]

when did that happen?

It was big news on Infowars and Stormfront why just about forever.

 

[MooseNSquirrel]

You forgot the Alpha Bank communicating with a server in Trump tower thing.

And private email servers. Remember when those were so bad you needed to lock a woman up?